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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Quote: |
On a side note: on some NEC XG models the peaking level on the neckboards are menu selectable, and for experimenting this isn't hard to do on other machines, though not menu selectable but it may help to select the perfect combination. |
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That might explain how Mike Eby was able to get his XG135LC to resolve 1080/72 so well. Somewhere around here he posted a 1:1 shot with all 3 colors on that looked damn good.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Quote: |
No one have the latest boards.. So the ones before that is more relevant.
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I think Nashou has a set of them  Just for the record I counted 9 (nine) peaking components on the older VNB schematics.
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Now im sure we agree, its all about the right amount of peaking |
YES
| Quote: | | my point is that the G90 have much lower real bandwidth and much much more peaking |
Probably because the peaking isn't set properly.
On a side note: on some NEC XG models the peaking level on the neckboards are menu selectable, and for experimenting this isn't hard to do on other machines, though not menu selectable but it may help to select the perfect combination. |
[/quote]
The true bandwith dont have much to du with the peaking, if its not there its not there, thats where the SMPTE pattern is handy, and run it at different bandwidth you will see without problems whats heavy peaking and whats bandwidth.
So again peaking is positive in some amounts, but dont make up for missing bandwidth.
Now im trying to improve on the G90, so its at the moment quite irelevant what projectors can adjust what where if the G90 cant, i also have boards to the marquue with manual peaking adjustments for each color, that just dont do much good on the G90.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I just had the first nice movie experience with the G90.
I got some dept and dynamic into the picture. I got a modified BA board, and by accident found out that any small amount of Gamma grayscale or CMS adjustment in the Radiance washes out all dept and organic experience on the G90.
Also no doubt that the new moome card is seriously limiting the bandwidth, as i illustrated with my screen shots, now with the new BA board its just even more clear what happens when waching a movie.
The old moome card have more noise, but that easly accepted in exchange with the extra bandwidth.
Now this is all running 817P 72hz, around 140Mhz, thats the best match for the G90 bandwidth and peaking.
I still doubt that this projector will ever do a good job at 1080P 72hz, but it will get a shot at it.
The gamma performance on the G90 is art.. I cant describe how much improvement no digital gamma CMS and grayscale adjustment have.. Ill just say wow.. wish my radiance had defect CMS and i had never used it with a CRT.
Ohh and not to forget no gamma mess on the moome card to. Rip it out ASAP.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I have contacted Moome about the extreme poor bandwidth performance of the new HDMI card, so lets see if there is a easy solution.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Moome was very fast to respond.
He is looking into it, there might be some peaking on the old Moome card.
I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz, and not even that low resolution is 100% perfect.
1080P 50hz is not very good.
So for now it looks like the old moome card just peaks the output, and make the 133Mhz look ok, and the G90 might role off already around 70Mhz.
Still i think the new moome card have some problems as it cuts off the vertical lines on a fine grid pattern up to around 20 IRE, none of the other inputs seems to suffer that isue. I
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz, and not even that low resolution is 100% perfect. |
Ha, something that even worse than my XG 
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just confirmed that the new moome card dont even do 720P 60 hz right.
Using the HD Basic 720P SMPTE pattern, output 720P 60hz from the radiance.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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You said, the G90 doesn't handle 720P 60Hz through RGBHV, neither the new moome card. The question is how much worse the new moome than the RGBHV?
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | You said, the G90 doesn't handle 720P 60Hz through RGBHV, neither the new moome card. The question is how much worse the new moome than the RGBHV? |
I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz.
Meaning its about what it will do, and the new moome card wont do it.
If you have any G90 experience that can help its much appriciated, or if you can post some resolution screenshots from your G90 to compare the performance with mine.
You can also start a NEC performance thread where you can post your findings about NEC and what can be done to improve it.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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133Mhz grid pattern with low contrast setting, looking into the tube the vertical lines is not really visible, but the camera was able to get a bit of it.
Just did it running 720P 60hz 74Mhz same issue.
Running higher bandwidth just makes it worse.
I believe its only the new moome card doing this.
I cant make the old moome card cut away the vertical line like this,
Last edited by stridsvognen on Sun May 25, 2014 6:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | You said, the G90 doesn't handle 720P 60Hz through RGBHV, neither the new moome card. The question is how much worse the new moome than the RGBHV? |
I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz.
Meaning its about what it will do, and the new moome card wont do it.
If you have any G90 experience that can help its much appriciated, or if you can post some resolution screenshots from your G90 to compare the performance with mine.
You can also start a NEC performance thread where you can post your findings about NEC and what can be done to improve it. |
I don't have a G90 I just try to find out things based on what I gathered about general bandwidth principes so far.
I already started a thread a thread for my XG
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=35694.html
All I know so far is:
-What I'm having is not the normal performance of an XG, my PG xtra easily outperforms it bandwidth wise that's for sure.
-The problem originates on/after the neckboards.
-Bought new neckboards, and they develop the same problem too.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:45 am Post subject: |
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I'll say this; there is far more to resolving than just bandwith as the peaking appears to be very critical. For example i can come really close to displaying a 1:1 pattern with matching H and V 1:1 boxes at 1080p/60 yet when i drop to 800p/72 it's not as uniform. That tells me this is not all about BW. Furthermore, in Nash's blend he doesnt display uniformity in 1:1 and he's only running 1152 x 800/72 which is a breeze for a marquee from a BW perspective.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Ok Moome was very fast to respond.
He is looking into it, there might be some peaking on the old Moome card.
I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz, and not even that low resolution is 100% perfect.
1080P 50hz is not very good.
So for now it looks like the old moome card just peaks the output, and make the 133Mhz look ok, and the G90 might role off already around 70Mhz.
Still i think the new moome card have some problems as it cuts off the vertical lines on a fine grid pattern up to around 20 IRE, none of the other inputs seems to suffer that isue. I |
I am not disregarding your testing, but you are a sample size of 1. I would have a hard time believing that a G90 with or without Moome couldn't achieve 1080p let alone 720p. If that were the case, then I doubt Craig would be recommending the Sonys as his go to CRT.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Ok Moome was very fast to respond.
He is looking into it, there might be some peaking on the old Moome card.
I just tested using the RGBHV input, and it looks like the G90 just dont handle more than 720P 60 hz, and not even that low resolution is 100% perfect.
1080P 50hz is not very good.
So for now it looks like the old moome card just peaks the output, and make the 133Mhz look ok, and the G90 might role off already around 70Mhz.
Still i think the new moome card have some problems as it cuts off the vertical lines on a fine grid pattern up to around 20 IRE, none of the other inputs seems to suffer that isue. I |
I am not disregarding your testing, but you are a sample size of 1. I would have a hard time believing that a G90 with or without Moome couldn't achieve 1080p let alone 720p. If that were the case, then I doubt Craig would be recommending the Sonys as his go to CRT. |
Craig has promised to post some screen shots of his G90 resolving 1:1 so im sure that will come.
I been looking old threads, and has not been able to find anyone resolving it any better then what i see here.
I simply just put down the bandwidth untill the 1:1 looks resolved in a decent way.
So my tests show around 70Mhz.
Compared to the a standard Marquee with the worse 02VIM i have, it will do around 100Mhz.
Ill love if there is a way to get better bandwidth performance out of my G90, so anyone who know how, please tell me.
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | I'll say this; there is far more to resolving than just bandwith as the peaking appears to be very critical. For example i can come really close to displaying a 1:1 pattern with matching H and V 1:1 boxes at 1080p/60 yet when i drop to 800p/72 it's not as uniform. That tells me this is not all about BW. Furthermore, in Nash's blend he doesnt display uniformity in 1:1 and he's only running 1152 x 800/72 which is a breeze for a marquee from a BW perspective. |
I agree, and found that also Barco doesn't resolve the 1:1 boxes equal even on very low resolutions. Until now I think only Marquee does this, but I'm not that technical to judge if maybe it will lack some other things to resolving BW.
@strids However it surprise me that you really enjoyed the picture quality when you tried the first movie on the G90 with the low (as you say) BW capabilities, and with no radiance color corrections
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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When the vertical lines can be seen as individual lines you are resolving that signal. The miss match in uniformity comes from how high a MTF you have . So the color miss match is a MTF issue, and that is due to many factors, including lenses.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/694774/nec-xg-1080p-can-it-be/30#post_7944806
| TSE wrote: | The pics you posted definately show 1080p resolved. If you can tell the difference between one black line or pixel next to one white line or pixel the device is "resolving" it. Now, you want to tell how well it resolves it you gotta break out the test equipment. Look at your pics. The "black" lines are not really black. They are gray. The SMPTE type pattern shows the finer lines at one pix on off, next coarser lines are two pix on/two pix off. The last are three pix on/three off.
If you could take a light meter and read just the white pixel then move to the next black pixel and read just it's light level you could calculate the MTF (modulation transfer function).
So let's say the "white" reading is 10 and the "black" reading is 5. The formula is:
white - black / white + black or 10-5 / 10+5 = 0.333 (this is multiplied by 100 to give percent) so MTF = 33.3%
Your pics don't show that much resolution on the one on/one off part but maybe on the two on/two off part it does.
So, if you can see modulation it is being resolved. It might only be at 7% MTF but it is resolved.
Scott |
Nashou
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | When the vertical lines can be seen as individual lines you are resolving that signal. The miss match in uniformity comes from how high a MTF you have . So the color miss match is a MTF issue, and that is due to many factors, including lenses.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/694774/nec-xg-1080p-can-it-be/30#post_7944806
| TSE wrote: | The pics you posted definately show 1080p resolved. If you can tell the difference between one black line or pixel next to one white line or pixel the device is "resolving" it. Now, you want to tell how well it resolves it you gotta break out the test equipment. Look at your pics. The "black" lines are not really black. They are gray. The SMPTE type pattern shows the finer lines at one pix on off, next coarser lines are two pix on/two pix off. The last are three pix on/three off.
If you could take a light meter and read just the white pixel then move to the next black pixel and read just it's light level you could calculate the MTF (modulation transfer function).
So let's say the "white" reading is 10 and the "black" reading is 5. The formula is:
white - black / white + black or 10-5 / 10+5 = 0.333 (this is multiplied by 100 to give percent) so MTF = 33.3%
Your pics don't show that much resolution on the one on/one off part but maybe on the two on/two off part it does.
So, if you can see modulation it is being resolved. It might only be at 7% MTF but it is resolved.
Scott |
Nashou |
""Now, you want to tell how well it resolves it you gotta break out the test equipment. Look at your pics. The "black" lines are not really black. They are gray.""
So what your saying if it can just been seen its resolved, so having it 5% resolved = resolved?
How well do you think the G90 resolves 817P 72hz 133Mhz with the 2 different moome cards.?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | | I'll say this; there is far more to resolving than just bandwith as the peaking appears to be very critical. For example i can come really close to displaying a 1:1 pattern with matching H and V 1:1 boxes at 1080p/60 yet when i drop to 800p/72 it's not as uniform. That tells me this is not all about BW. Furthermore, in Nash's blend he doesnt display uniformity in 1:1 and he's only running 1152 x 800/72 which is a breeze for a marquee from a BW perspective. |
I agree, and found that also Barco doesn't resolve the 1:1 boxes equal even on very low resolutions. Until now I think only Marquee does this, but I'm not that technical to judge if maybe it will lack some other things to resolving BW.
@strids However it surprise me that you really enjoyed the picture quality when you tried the first movie on the G90 with the low (as you say) BW capabilities, and with no radiance color corrections |
Ahh it has taken me some time to get here, find the best input card, a moddet BA board, feeding it with the lowest bandwidth possible.
It has helped quite a lot on the black level performance and some noise isues, but i dont see much bandwidth improvements.
For now ill say the image is about 70% of what i get from a standard Marquee, where the G90 is feedet 133Mhz, and the Marquee 155Mhz. So there is some work to do still if it have to get a spot in front of the screen.
It has some + and - one thing i realy like is that i dont need to worry about the banding, and blooming as on the Marquee.
Overall ill still prefer a standard Marquee, it just have so much more dept and low level information.
The modified Marquee is a hole different storry, it just all wild and bloddy when feedet a 200Mhz signal, with amasing colors details, contrast whatever defines the image...
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I say your one moome card might be bad , are you using the lumagen? Go into the moome straight from the BD player and see
how it looks. Alway start with the easiest path then go from there when trouble shooting.
Nashou |
Ahh i think i know my Radiance well enough to know that its not the problem.. My 1:1 screenshots was made with the same signal, just changed HDMI cards in the projector.
But to make you feel better i have been all the way around, using my Crystalio 2 and DVDO VP50 RGBHV out to compare, and testet them all running HDMI out to.
I can also move my HDMI cable over to the Marquee and confirm that it have no isues whatsoever resolving anything i can trow at it.
So its tested all the way around in every way you can think off.
Sure i can go get the HD Fury 3 and Calibre Vantage to, but did not feel the need, what i used so far all came out with the same result bandwidth wise, except the new moome card.
Remember im only pushing 74Mhz, when testing 720P 60hz most old DA converters can handle that. that seems to be where the G90 starts soften the signal. without to much peaking distortion.
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