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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Craig, i was sure you were using the Moome V3 is there any other 3D capable moome cards.?
From what it looks on mine its a 2012 print layout, has anything changed? or is it possible this one have been sold for 2 years, and no one notice anything.? |
The v3 boards I got from Moome that I have here now came about two months ago and I haven't tried them yet. Moome often changes small things without documentation. He told me that these changes were on my new boards compared to the first batch of v3 boards.
Moome said:
| Quote: | Dear Craig:
I have new batch of IFB V3 card now.
You can order it if need.
I made some mods on this batch.
1. Raise +5V to +5.2V
2. Raise +3.3V to 3.4V for HDMI RX
3. Raise +1.2V to 1.25V for HDMI RX
4. Use solid state capacitor to let video opamp power supply at precise +5V -5V.
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The cross hatch pattern you are showing suggests to me an issue on the Moome card (though I can't be certain of course). It looks like an edge enhancement "feature" may be turned on on the HDMI chip (though I can't be certain of that either). I will look at the new v3 cards I have here and let you know how the cross hatch looks on my G90.
The new v3 cards I have here also say IFB_FHDC VER: 0.1 2012/06/30, but I think that is just the PCB design. Components on the PCB and the programming can be changed without altering the PCB at all.
I use the FULLHD V1 or V2 (I forget). The two are virtually identical except some minor changes and then the big change of fixing the bandwidth problem on the v2 cards. I always field upgraded the v1 cards to fix the bandwidth so I really don't care if it's v1 or v2.
In my initial testing between the v2 and v3 I really didn't see much performance difference between the two. I do however conceptually like the v1 and v2 better because it uses discrete oppamps instead of one IC for all three channels. That difference seems to be more academician than anything else because I don't see crosstalk on the v3 boards. The oppamp on the v3 is also higher bandwidth.
Also, since the v3 came out, I have used the v3 on all my client's setups without issue. I will look at these new ones to make sure.
craig
_________________
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Craig, i was sure you were using the Moome V3 is there any other 3D capable moome cards.?
From what it looks on mine its a 2012 print layout, has anything changed? or is it possible this one have been sold for 2 years, and no one notice anything.? |
The v3 boards I got from Moome that I have here now came about two months ago and I haven't tried them yet. Moome often changes small things without documentation. He told me that these changes were on my new boards compared to the first batch of v3 boards.
Moome said:
| Quote: | Dear Craig:
I have new batch of IFB V3 card now.
You can order it if need.
I made some mods on this batch.
1. Raise +5V to +5.2V
2. Raise +3.3V to 3.4V for HDMI RX
3. Raise +1.2V to 1.25V for HDMI RX
4. Use solid state capacitor to let video opamp power supply at precise +5V -5V.
|
The cross hatch pattern you are showing suggests to me an issue on the Moome card (though I can't be certain of course). It looks like an edge enhancement "feature" may be turned on on the HDMI chip (though I can't be certain of that either). I will look at the new v3 cards I have here and let you know how the cross hatch looks on my G90.
The new v3 cards I have here also say IFB_FHDC VER: 0.1 2012/06/30, but I think that is just the PCB design. Components on the PCB and the programming can be changed without altering the PCB at all.
I use the FULLHD V1 or V2 (I forget). The two are virtually identical except some minor changes and then the big change of fixing the bandwidth problem on the v2 cards. I always field upgraded the v1 cards to fix the bandwidth so I really don't care if it's v1 or v2.
In my initial testing between the v2 and v3 I really didn't see much performance difference between the two. I do however conceptually like the v1 and v2 better because it uses discrete oppamps instead of one IC for all three channels. That difference seems to be more academician than anything else because I don't see crosstalk on the v3 boards. The oppamp on the v3 is also higher bandwidth.
Also, since the v3 came out, I have used the v3 on all my client's setups without issue. I will look at these new ones to make sure.
craig |
I have the V 1.332 who say 2007.06.13
Is there any upgrady you like to share for that one.? Or is it to old.?
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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That card is ancient Kurt. I thought you got a new one?
I don't have any upgrades for that board.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | That card is ancient Kurt. I thought you got a new one?
I don't have any upgrades for that board.
craigr |
I have that one and the new V3
For bandwidth performance the old card is quite much better. So im a bit desperate to do something here.
Just look the 1:1 pictures i posted back of the 2 moome cards.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | That card is ancient Kurt. I thought you got a new one?
I don't have any upgrades for that board.
craigr |
I have that one and the new V3
For bandwidth performance the old card is quite much better. So im a bit desperate to do something here.
Just look the 1:1 pictures i posted back of the 2 moome cards. |
Which card has the problem with the cross hatch test pattern?
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Another thought regarding your color SMTPE 1:1 pattern and its attenuation. I wonder if it could be gamma related. On the Marquee normally the SMTPE 1:1 in color looks very blue. This is because the Marquee has gamma correction on just the blue tube.
On the G90 there is gamma correction on all three tubes and it is adjustable individually for each tube. I would be curious to see what you find if you were to adjust the gamma on each tube and see if the color of the SMTPE 1:1 changes at all when you adjust gamma.
In that regard, the SMTPE 1:1 doesn't always indicate a bandwidth issue, but instead is just showing a distortion due to gamma correction in the analog domain.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Another thought regarding your color SMTPE 1:1 pattern and its attenuation. I wonder if it could be gamma related. On the Marquee normally the SMTPE 1:1 in color looks very blue. This is because the Marquee has gamma correction on just the blue tube.
On the G90 there is gamma correction on all three tubes and it is adjustable individually for each tube. I would be curious to see what you find if you were to adjust the gamma on each tube and see if the color of the SMTPE 1:1 changes at all when you adjust gamma.
In that regard, the SMTPE 1:1 doesn't always indicate a bandwidth issue, but instead is just showing a distortion due to gamma correction in the analog domain.
craigr |
I have more or less the same result no matter what gamma i run on the G90.
I been running it from min to max.
Also i have a decent color balance to the 2 test pictures i made.
Sure there is difference in how the 1:1 look depending how you drive the tube, as usual when peaking is in play.
The new moome card is different/ douing something wrong for sure. I checked using RGBHV inputs, and no way was it possible to do what the new moome card do to the grid pattern where it removes vertical lines running low level output.
And its on all 3 tubes.
I just removed the G90 from the screen, and put my Marquee instead.. If you like to see a perfect 1:1 CRT resolution.. running around 200Mhz. with no peaking distortion, then its ready.
Its just on a totally different level.
So untill i get a input card who will behave right it will stay in the corner.
Ill wait and see what you find with the new V3 moome card.
Very curious to see shots from others like i post here running all 3 tubes.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Please tell me those pics aren't from your Marquee.
Showing all three tubes at once only tells you the converge/align ability of the pj owner.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Please tell me those pics aren't from your Marquee.
Showing all three tubes at once only tells you the converge/align ability of the pj owner. |
The pictures is not from my Marquee, they are from my G90. 2 different moome cards.
And showing all 3 tubes tells quite a lot more, when the video chain have as much peaking as the G90 it can easy shift the color, also its a lot to do with how all 3 tubes focus.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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For bandwidth and peaking it's better to show just one color and green is the color of most concern because about 65%+ of your perceived sharpness comes from the green.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | For bandwidth and peaking it's better to show just one color and green is the color of most concern because about 65%+ of your perceived sharpness comes from the green.
craigr |
Green give you a idea, but the real test is all 3 tubes, as you dont drive all 3 tubes the same, its easy to peak differently.
You also often see your peaking distortion more clear on a shot like mine with all 3 tubes.
And even that green is 65%, i always run all 3 colors when watching a movie.
I always look all 3 tubes, run them from 0-100% looking the 1:1 area when i look for peaking, or how the peaking behave.
You might have a nice color match at full 100%, but way off at 30%.
Peaking also change depending on resolution, so quite a lot to keep track on.
That to me is just the nature of peaking, and it is a distortion to the image. And when i have a idea how much peaking is going on, i also get a better idea about the real bandwidth.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I understand where you are coming from, but as tse explained to me the testing is done on one tube. I believe he even wrote it up in a post somewhere. IIRC all of his testing was done on the green tube.
If you want to test all of three tubes, then why don't you do them individually. Again, all you are showing is your converge/align ability.
One thing this reminds me of is when Scott showed a Marquee 8500 AC doing 1080p. His pic was of a red tube. I remember everyone coming up with every excuse in the book to say why that was BS. Ah memories! 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | I understand where you are coming from, but as tse explained to me the testing is done on one tube. I believe he even wrote it up in a post somewhere. IIRC all of his testing was done on the green tube.
If you want to test all of three tubes, then why don't you do them individually. Again, all you are showing is your converge/align ability.
One thing this reminds me of is when Scott showed a Marquee 8500 AC doing 1080p. His pic was of a red tube. I remember everyone coming up with every excuse in the book to say why that was BS. Ah memories! |
There is all kinds of excuse not to show all 3 tubes together, but the image still takes 3 tubes, so the final testing needs to be all 3 together. I also posts green only when im to lazy to do focus and stuff on other tubes, or trim peaking and stuff.
You need to try and post a shot of the 1:1 with perfect convergence and a shot where its off. That dont really changes much in this game of detecting bandwidth and peaking. Try it and you will see. Its just one of the excuses.
Look at my shots.. convergence is far from perfect, but its the same on both shots.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Why do you think it is an excuse? If it would have been important, then don't you think TSE would have used it in his testing.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I will go with the experts.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Why do you think it is an excuse? If it would have been important, then don't you think TSE would have used it in his testing.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I will go with the experts. |
As i say the image is not a green show only, so the final test have to be all 3 tubes.
That you adjust and tweak each color individual i agree, but if your 3 tubes together dont match.. well then its all over again.
Its like to balance your front wheels on your car only, and let everyone know how smooth they run.. but your rear wheels are all square.. then the driving experience just dont benefit much.
Sure everyone is alowed to do as they like, but for me its just not ok before i can run all 3 tubes with a nice balance.
Ill much more prefer if you use your experience instead of quoting someone from back in the days.. There might be some lost words or misunderstandings. Do the testing yourself. Love to see your shots where you document your way, and the final result.
I cant argue agains someone who just read and claim they understand what they have been reading.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Why do you think it is an excuse? If it would have been important, then don't you think TSE would have used it in his testing.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I will go with the experts. |
For looking at pure bandwidth the green only is the best. Blue can't be as sharp as red and green, so looking all colors will give worse MTF mut that doesn't judge the circuits. On the other hand the colors are driven at different levels so for real life performance check a mixed color test could be also handy, for that, however I wouldn't use a 1:1 pattern, more like a multiburst pattern or a grey setp pattern.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Why do you think it is an excuse? If it would have been important, then don't you think TSE would have used it in his testing.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I will go with the experts. |
For looking at pure bandwidth the green only is the best. Blue can't be as sharp as red and green, so looking all colors will give worse MTF mut that doesn't judge the circuits. On the other hand the colors are driven at different levels so for real life performance check a mixed color test could be also handy, for that, however I wouldn't use a 1:1 pattern, more like a multiburst pattern or a grey setp pattern. |
Also that is right, but again.. your MTF is a result of all 3 tubes, wont help you much to have good MTF on green, and very bad at red and blue.
Ultimate you need to display a perfect SMPTE all around.
So if it comes to that run all possible patterns and see to they all look perfect. Thats the ultimate goal.
And bandwidth is not always the same on all 3 colors, if so.. green only dont hold in the final result.
I guess this dont add up if you never seen what it do to the image, so for peace ill agree that a G90 its best just to stick to testing green tube only.
Just hard to me to understand why you guys dont see any value in displaying all whats in play.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Craig asked me to post a picture of my new Moome card, so i bought a new camera. Hope this will do. 
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Your best bet is to have Craig come by the next time he is in Europe.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Your best bet is to have Craig come by the next time he is in Europe. |
Thats a option once my HT is ready, i already talked with Craig about that, but first it all need to run as smooth as possible.
For now ill see if there is a fix to the new Moome card, or ill have to fine a V2 card instead.
Right now there is a huge gab that needs to be filled out if that G90 have to get some space in my HT.
I doubt ill ever select it to watch movies, but might be used for gaming to the children,so i save tube hours on the Marquee.
It will also give me the option to compare, or ilustrate the difference betwen different CRT projectors, to others who will visite my HT in the future.
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