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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I actually found another site first with straight tones but I went with this one because of the warble style tones.
I don't think the quality or cost of the headphones makes any difference as long as they can reproduce the tones in the test.
I'm sure a 1K pair of headphones might make the tones sound better but if you can't hear the frequency, the quality of the tone won't matter much
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | ...I can't seem to find a test that takes Tinnitus in consideration. When you go in for a test, they put you in a sound proof room but you are bringing sound in with you. So I can't see how this could be considered a legit test. |
In a real sense, it's not. Why do they bother putting you in a soundproof room? To eliminate "background levels", which will shift your audible sensitivity profile. But they can't eliminate the tinnitus, because that's internal. Still, it's an audibly perceptive 'sound', no matter how that stimulus is coupled into your perception.
That simply means the external tones they're testing with have to compete with an internal tone you're already hearing. So in that sense, the curves they obtain do not reflect whatever actual sensitivity you may have.
However, OTOH, in one sense it may be useful. I.e., if you want to be able to perceive those frequencies in a 'normal' fashion, you have to be able to boost them "above the noise" of your internal signal. Otherwise they'll be there, but you won't know it. It's like telling someone to speak up, to overcome some loud background noise.
The problem I have with that though is while you're overcoming an elevated base level for those tones caused by tinnitus, you're not for anything else. I'd be a little concerned then that they might overwhelm the rest of the frequency spectrum. There's a compression effect that happens as sound levels are increased, therefore boosting that range may negatively impact perception of the rest of the range.
I've never looked into tinnitus at all, though I know there can be several causes, and sometimes it's structural. I'm wondering (naively) if there's any way to address that problem first?
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | I actually found another site first with straight tones but I went with this one because of the warble style tones. |
Those are much better for testing hearing, than fixed tones.
| Quote: | | I don't think the quality or cost of the headphones makes any difference as long as they can reproduce the tones in the test. I'm sure a 1K pair of headphones might make the tones sound better but if you can't hear the frequency, the quality of the tone won't matter much |
It's not a matter of "sounding better". The whole idea of testing is to create a frequency response plot of your auditory system (ears). But the final result will be a combination of all the links in the chain:
Final = f(ears) + f(transducers) + f(amplifier) + f(source)
The amplitude oif the source signal can be carefully controlled. And, in fact, a response curve is already applied, to compensate for "normal hearing". The amplifier CAN also have an impact, though even the cheap ones in a PC setup are probably within a dB or so, in the narrow range these tests cover.
But that's NOT true for the transducers (headphones or speakers). They can, and often do, have deviations of 5 or even 10dB, all by themselves. I'm sure you're aware of the fact that these "sound different", and some have enhanced midrange 'presence', or a shrill or muddy high end, etc. (And headphones are better for these tests than speakers, because they eliminate room effects that speakers are subject to... though that can be mitigated by near-field listening.)
In other words, if you took an individual with perfect hearing, and had them run these tests, you'd be able to obtain accurate curves for the headphones or speakers you were testing with. And I can tell you they'd be pretty rocky, and different for every one.
That's what I'm having trouble with. And that was confirmed with my results deviating by +25/-15 dB, without my swapping ears at all.  So that's why I've decided to wait until I can find a set of headphones with known smooth response, lacking any large peaks or valleys. And no, they don't have to be perfect, nor does the "quality of the tone" matter. But it's amplitude (volume) sure as hell does. That's the whole thing we're testing.
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | I tried explaining my theory to the audiologist who does not have Tinnitus and got the impression that it went right over her head. |
That often happens, when you ask a professional a new question they haven't heard before, that they have no clue how to answer.
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Hm, programmability is very good. I wish the EarZin had that. |
I found another source of user-programmable aids, you may want to take a look at, Gary:
http://www.americahears.com/ah_store_purch_ha.html
| Quote: | | But a pair of those hearing aids costs 5x more than the EarZin. |
Even the $400/pair models at AH are programmable, and have a money-back guarantee. So options at $200/500/700 and $950 each. Since they're less expensive, I thought they may be cutting corners, but the testimonials...
http://www.americahears.com/ah_about_testimonials.html
from a Music Producer/Recording Engineer and a research Scientist seemed fairly compelling. (I haven't read all of them yet... just picked a couple I felt I might have something in common with.) I still need to a search for "XYZ sucks!", to get the other viewpoint.
| Quote: | | The EarZin is practically free to try, and only $400 if you decide to keep it. The iPod/earbud model might not be as good for full-time wear as a regular hearing aid, though. |
While that form-factor may be OK in some scenarios, in lots of others I can see it being a bit of a PITA. Well, actually, a major PITA.
I'm not personally a candidate for an aid yet (AFAIK), but my Mom is in desperate need, and my Dad refuses to do anything. So I think it will be up to me. I'm still not clear which ones provide the PC interface programmer with them, and which you have to buy separately (and how much it costs). But if anyone else gets some experience, or learns more, I hope they'll share it here.
They all require (by Federal Law) that you get a report (audiogram, etc) from a licensed Audiologist first, before they can dispense them. But after you've got them, you can adjust them as needed, w/o having to make a trip back in for an audiologist to do it. And you can avoid multiple initial trips, because apparently they all require a bit of tweaking while you adapt to being able to hear again.
I did already find that the ones at HearSource (just one main model, at $995) have a 12-band spectrum equalizer, from 200-8k. While the AH models are only 9-band, 250-6k. Though the AH models seem to have a lot of real-world features designed to cope with Environmental Noise, Wind Noise, Suppression of Impulse and Background noise, and managed/adaptive Feedback control. All with adjustable attack & decay time parameters on the compressors. They also have 4 sets of Program memories, so you can set them up for different situations/environments, and flip between them.
The HS ones have "up to 4 memories", noise-cancelling, and feedback control via phase-shift (i.e., a short delay-line). I need to look at that one closer, because I don't know as much about it yet, as I do the AH. The software for the HS seems more polished, but the AH software is reasonably easy to use (clear).
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- Tim
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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What $400/pair models? The Freedom ITE are $499/pair, but those are apparently for hearing protection, not hearing aids. The lowest-cost model is the Freedom SIE, which are $499 EACH.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: |
What $400/pair models? The Freedom ITE are $499/pair, but those are apparently for hearing protection, not hearing aids. The lowest-cost model is the Freedom SIE, which are $499 EACH. |
http://www.americahears.com/ah_prod_a_bte_pair.html
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, you may be correct that those are more for hearing protection, than as aids?
"Freedom BTE Pair
The Freedom BTE offers 4 channel/20 bit digital audio processing for unparalleled sound quality plus faster sound activated compression and automatic feedback control.
Features:
20 Bit Digital Sound Processor, 45db of Gain, 110db of Sound Output
AFT - Adjustable Frequency Tuning, provides a bass/treble fine tuning capability
Four digital sound processing channels
Two programs with rocker switch selector
Rocker switch volume control
Feedback manager
Noise suppression
Wind noise filter
Sound protection
Open fit adapter
300 hours of battery life"
The characteristics sounded a lot like hearing aids to me, but the main limitation may be the "AFT - Adjustable Frequency Tuning, provides a bass/treble fine tuning capability". I hadn't looked really closely, and was thinking that "Four digital sound processing channels" is where the frequency-specific equalization was occurring. But perhaps there is none?
I'm still learning a lot myself, so I may make mistakes. I'm also kind of rushing my research a bit, with moving my Mom to the nursing home on Wednesday, and my Dad back in the hospital. Sorry.
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and I should have said "Thanks!" for setting me straight on that, Gary. I definitely appreciate it.
They do LOOK like hearing aids, though. 
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'll also mention that I've found both positive and negative comments on the AH brand.
The most interesting negative was from someone on a hearing-aid specific Forum, who indicated AH were no better than any other brand, in spite of their claims. And in his experience, not as reliable.
He felt that you'd be better off just going to Costco. Because they take quality, known brands like Siemens (and one other I forget), then rebrand them with a house name. Not all Costco's have an audiologist on staff, but those that do would give you as good professional examination and prescribing as anywhere else, that costs a lot more. (In his opinion... I have no Costco's near me.)
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- Tim
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, they do definitely LOOK like hearing aids, and with 40dB of amplification I don't see how they'd be hearing protection. But if you look at their website navigation (the pulldown menu under Hearing Aids), the Freedom ITE and BTE are listed under hearing protection, not hearing aids.
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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This really sucks.
We all care so much about sound quality and picture quality that we spend large on HT and most of us wear glasses or bifocals and either wear hearing aids or should wear them. I think it was Woody Allen that said" If I'd known I was going to live so long, I would have taken better care of myself"
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When the first clock was invented, how did they know what time to set it to?
No point being pessimistic; it probably would't work anyway.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Yeah, they do definitely LOOK like hearing aids, and with 40dB of amplification I don't see how they'd be hearing protection. |
Two very good points! That's what I was thinking as well.
If I had to guess though, I suspect they also have compressors that can attenuate too, with fast attack times. Since they completely fill the ear canal, the only sound making it through is what gets processed (i.e., when fully Off, they're like earplugs).
| Quote: | | But if you look at their website navigation (the pulldown menu under Hearing Aids), the Freedom ITE and BTE are listed under hearing protection, not hearing aids. |
It's funny, because I managed to skim right past that when I saw a pair of hearing-aid type objects that cost less than just one higher up on the page.
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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As I'm starting to learn more about hearing-aids, there are two areas I've found surprising:
How large losses can be:
a) losses of up to 20 dB are "normal"! even in kids. and for adults, up to 25.
b) losses up to 40 dB are categorized as "mild" (whoa!)
c) up to 55 dB are Moderate
d) up to 70 dB are Moderately Severe
e) up to 90 dB are Severe
f) and 95 or more are "Profound"
That kind of blows my mind. All the years I worked in audio when I was a young man, where you tried to keep the electronics variances under 1 dB, and preferably 0.1 dB. And EQ'ing out speaker variances of 5 dB or more, bringing them under 3 dB as much as possible. Controlling room influences and mitigating them to <10 dB. Etc. Yet frequency-specific variances up to 40 dB in hearing are considered Mild? 
Secondly, that there's a lot more to hearing-aids than amplification and EQ. Lots of people just think of them as amplifiers, but I was was at least aware that loses are usually frequency dependent. Sometimes a relatively smooth roll-off, which could be handled by compensation similar to a "tone control". Which the Earzin that Gary found would work for. But often not smooth at all, and requiring a multi-band, split-octave, spectral corrected EQ.
What I didn't realize was the sophistication of the real-time components associated with compression, and techniques used to maximize intelligibility of speech (at the expense of the rest of the spectrum, including music appreciation). Multi-mic'ing, polar-response shaping, noise-reduction, impulse filtering, on and on. With lots of trade-offs being made along the way.
That's why all the newer "good" HA's have multiple "programs". To handle different situations. And some are even capable of auto-detecting those environments, and shifting gears on their own! I think that's pretty amazing.
I'm still learning as I go.
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- Tim
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