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Review: Greg Eisemann Barco 909 modifications
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640


Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject:

I sold mine and i use the EXT V3.

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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Hey Case, did you ever make any screenshots with the right 1:1 pattern where vertical and horisontal have the same level from the source.?

Yep, i posted them in another thread.

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Francisco



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject:

Hi Case, this threat? https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34512.html

Here your 1:1 hasn't got the same level H vs V.

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stridsvognen
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject:

Lets hope Greg will post a shot where he shows what the mods can do with perfect tubes, setup so he can aprove all the chain.

190Mhz will for sure make a perfect 1:1 1080P 60hz, even 72hz should be pretty damn nice.
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135


Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Lets hope Greg will post a shot where he shows what the mods can do with perfect tubes, setup so he can aprove all the chain.

190Mhz will for sure make a perfect 1:1 1080P 60hz, even 72hz should be pretty damn nice.


The only CRT screen shots I recall seeing where the 1:1 is near perfect were posted by you and Mike. I have yet to see any other PJ (909, G90, etc.) that comes close. Neck board BW is critical..

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stridsvognen
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject:

jbmeyer13 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Lets hope Greg will post a shot where he shows what the mods can do with perfect tubes, setup so he can aprove all the chain.

190Mhz will for sure make a perfect 1:1 1080P 60hz, even 72hz should be pretty damn nice.


The only CRT screen shots I recall seeing where the 1:1 is near perfect were posted by you and Mike. I have yet to see any other PJ (909, G90, etc.) that comes close. Neck board BW is critical..


Im sure Greg must have tested it all the way from the source to the tube, so if he claims he can do 190Mhz, im sure he can post a 1:1 screenshot running that bandwidth to confirm it.

I just find Gregs spec about Ghz bandwidth here and there a bit confusing, and a simple screenshot is worth more than 1000 words.
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject:

Francisco wrote:
Hi Case, this threat? https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34512.html

Here your 1:1 hasn't got the same level H vs V.

I dont recall stating it did, i said it was noticably better with RGB instead of MOOME EXT V3.

No, that is not the thread, and those arent the pics.

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject:

1:1 to me means nothing about bandwidth even though it does. Confused? lol

Here is why. I have noticed on My blend that is not even close to using a high Pixel clock
and with the adjustable peaking Vims or with Vims that do not have the adjustable peaking. The Circuit has to be "tuned" for the resolution you are using.
I noticed I have gotten perfect 1:1 with the adjustable peaking . But, if I lowered the pixel clock the 1:1 should, according to many here, show a perfect and even in color and brightness 1:1 since the lower pixel clock falls well below the max.
Well it does not look perfect as the higher resolution before. Adjusting the pixel clock will determine the outcome
of each video path circuit independently. So to really get a good and even shade, brightness, or matching intensity or what ever you choose to call it you need to work on the Video path components through the projector so that the 1:1 will look even in intensity for the vertical and horizontal lines.

Also, and I can not stress this enough. Set up of focus has as much to do with this as does the BW of the video chain. If you can not get equal MTF between the two sets of lines( H and V) they will never match in intensity. MTF( Modular transfer Function) is as and if not more important as bandwidth and they are inseparable in CRT PJ's. You can have all the bandwidth in the world but if the optical and focus system can not get that BW to the screen your efforts on improving BW are wasted.

So CPC magnets, Zone Astig, Electronic focus system and Optical Focus system has to be as good or better for the 1:1 to look Even.

Kurt's picture shows that he has achieved this as does Mikes. They both have increased BW video chains but also have been able to set up the PJ's to take advantage of that increased BW and keep an even intensity between the two line blocks in the 1:1 pattern. Add some flare to the dots using a CPC magnet or through the electrical Astig and you will loose the perfect 1:1 even though the BW is there.

Nashou

PS: This is from my own observations messing around with Different Blend resolutions and the peaking circuit and with out the peaking circuit.

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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
So CPC magnets, Zone Astig, Electronic focus system and Optical Focus system has to be as good or better for the 1:1 to look Even.

Kurt's picture shows that he has achieved this as does Mikes. They both have increased BW video chains but also have been able to set up the PJ's to take advantage of that increased BW and keep an even intensity between the two line blocks in the 1:1 pattern. Add some flare to the dots using a CPC magnet or through the electrical Astig and you will loose the perfect 1:1 even though the BW is there.



In theory you're right. But if you inspect Case's 1:1 shot with his 909 it's clearly visible the problem isn't lying in the incorrect focus adjustments. A badly set focus-astig combo makes either line sets thicker not just uneven in colour, it's easy to distinguish from poor BW.

Also what you say about the Marquee's adjustable peaking is only meaning that your machine's bandwidth is not flat through the whole range, which is not a surprise, and actually rarely happens. But since everyone using their machines in 1080P 60 or 72Hz these 1:1 close ups making much sense, if a machine can do higher resolutions better than 1080P that is fantastic, but have little use in practice (for us at least), but yet to see one of these first... If you know what I mean.

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stridsvognen
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject:

gjaky wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
So CPC magnets, Zone Astig, Electronic focus system and Optical Focus system has to be as good or better for the 1:1 to look Even.

Kurt's picture shows that he has achieved this as does Mikes. They both have increased BW video chains but also have been able to set up the PJ's to take advantage of that increased BW and keep an even intensity between the two line blocks in the 1:1 pattern. Add some flare to the dots using a CPC magnet or through the electrical Astig and you will loose the perfect 1:1 even though the BW is there.



In theory you're right. But if you inspect Case's 1:1 shot with his 909 it's clearly visible the problem isn't lying in the incorrect focus adjustments. A badly set focus-astig combo makes either line sets thicker not just uneven in colour, it's easy to distinguish from poor BW.

Also what you say about the Marquee's adjustable peaking is only meaning that your machine's bandwidth is not flat through the whole range, which is not a surprise, and actually rarely happens. But since everyone using their machines in 1080P 60 or 72Hz these 1:1 close ups making much sense, if a machine can do higher resolutions better than 1080P that is fantastic, but have little use in practice (for us at least), but yet to see one of these first... If you know what I mean.


I agree, its no problem to see whats focus, and whats bandwidth relatet.

Peaking is a different storry like no Picture holds the same resolution, and peaking can be ok in small amounts maybe to match grayscale in different resolution, but true bandwidth is much to prefer, and i have seen what bandwidth headroom can do, and im sure if you can have 3-4-5x the bandwidth needet you will se a difference each time you step up the bandwidth running the same resolution.

Lets keep the focus on the Barco 909 with Gregs mods this time and leave the Marquee and others out.. I really like to see a shot of that 190Mhz 909 from Greg, it must truly be a amasing machine.
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:03 am    Post subject:

Ill see if i can find those 1-1 images i posted with the RGB where it was much better.
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject:

This is with the MOOME V3 external:



This is RGB straight from the PC, exactly the same 1920x1080p @60Hz


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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:15 am    Post subject:

Colour is off in the second pic cause i had not calibrated that after redoing setup of both inputs which is why the colour temps vary as they do, but it can clearly be seen how much better my 5x RG6 coax leads are over the MOOME V3, both are aboth the same sharpness, and i believe i did that prior to installing the new screen, which has improved sharpness by a huge amount.

Pics taken with an iPhone 4S.

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Kurt take a pic of 1:1 at 1080p@60. I want to see if the color shifts in the blocks compared to your 72hz shots.

Nashou

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject:

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:47 pm

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Francisco wrote:

Here your 1:1 hasn't got the same level H vs V.

I dont recall stating it did...

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:44 am

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:

...did you ever make any screenshots with the right 1:1 pattern where vertical and horisontal have the same level from the source.?

Yep, i posted them in another thread.

Paging Dr. Alzheimers! Paging Dr. I. Got Alzheimers. Mr. Green

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
Also, and I can not stress this enough. Set up of focus has as much to do with this as does the BW of the video chain. If you can not get equal MTF between the two sets of lines( H and V) they will never match in intensity. MTF (Modular transfer Function) is as and if not more important as bandwidth...

One small correction, Nash. Modulation. Not Modular.

As important, yes. More important. No. Either can be the weak link in the chain, that degrades the overall signal integrity.

Quote:
...and they are inseparable in CRT PJ's. You can have all the bandwidth in the world but if the optical and focus system can not get that BW to the screen your efforts on improving BW are wasted.

Well worth keeping in mind, since focusing (ahem) all one's attention on a single attribute is likely to achieve disappointing results. It's a system, with cascading stages all impacting the final results.

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stridsvognen
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
Kurt take a pic of 1:1 at 1080p@60. I want to see if the color shifts in the blocks compared to your 72hz shots.

Nashou


They do a bit, but nothing easy to document with my ipad photos.

If you play with your contrast you will also notice that if u have a bigger amount of peaking, your results is bound to a specifik resolution and output level/ 0-100 IRE will might look perfect, but 0-50 IRE will drift off, specialy in very low level it will distort the lines.

The most easy way to see peaking is in the start of the horisontal line, where it will make a overshoot, and drop down to the right level, the same will hapen to every signal where the resolution gets lover in the horisontal level, like a horisontal line with a length of 2-3-4 pixels or more, each time you go change the resolution from 1 to 2 or 3 pixels you will get a difference.

That might boost your dynamic impression in some scenes, and create a left side halo on some objects on high contrast scenes.

The start of the horisontal line is a good place to get a indication of the amount of peaking used.

The Marquee have a decent bandwidth, and peaking can be addet so its not very vissible on the test pattern or movie content, but its not the same result as true bandwidth.. Nothing competes with that from where i stand.

I fail to understand why we have to argue this in this thread about Barco mods from Greg, who claims no peaking and 190Mhz performance on screen. And the Barco is also not known for having problems with the focus, like other CRT machines.

Im much more curious to know if i have to go out and buy a Barco 909 and some of Gregs mods, to beat up my old VDC 9553LC.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject:

You don't have to buy a Barco, but do you have frankenyokes?

That is all you'll need and then your done ! Very Happy

Nashou

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stridsvognen
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
You don't have to buy a Barco, but do you have frankenyokes?

That is all you'll need and then your done ! Very Happy

Nashou


Ill not be convinced untill i have tested it myself. Wink

And no i never tested the frankenyokes, no one ever seemed to prove the effect. Lots of writing, but never found a thread where someone documented the effect with screenshots.
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135


Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
You don't have to buy a Barco, but do you have frankenyokes?

That is all you'll need and then your done ! Very Happy

Nashou


That's for sure; big improvement in overall focus Mr. Green

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