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tanwn
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: Has digital really caught with CRT black level? |
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Can someone tell me whether a jvc x500/700 is able to produce a crt black night scene, low key scene, fade to black as good or better than crt? Please respond if you really have seen it.
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I cant speak to that model but lately I have been looking around at some HT stores, most do a real nice set up, dark room all the bells and whistles. It made me love my sony. Nothing came close to the blacks I have. Nothing. If I had not been a crt owner I think I would have been amazed though. I can see the benefits of DPJ's but I'll keep my CRT as long as I can even if it makes me a little crazy sometimes. Like yesterday.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Rounds is the guy to answer that question. I believe he would tell you that the JVC projectors come the closest to a 9" CRT in black level but they are not quite there yet. From 0-5IRE the CRT still has the advantage.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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tanwn: What CRT projector do you have? What video processor do you have?
For most CRT projectors to do near black correctly, you require advanced (multi-point/parametric) gamma adjustment such as found on the Radiance line of video processors. Sure, you can turn the brightness down on your CRT projector to the point that you can't see your hand in front of your face, but then you're also (most likely) crushing blacks. So I find it odd when CRT owners tout their black levels because it's usually at the expense of low level detail, and most don't even realize what they're missing.
14 months ago I switched from CRT (A zenith 1200x with 8" LC tubes) to a JVC RS56. I don't use a video processor like the Radiance. My black level detail got better. You can read more about my findings here: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=32973.html
Everything else is better - especially inter-scene ANSI contrast.
Kal
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | tanwn: What CRT projector do you have? What video processor do you have?
For most CRT projectors to do near black correctly, you require advanced (multi-point/parametric) gamma adjustment such as found on the Radiance line of video processors. Sure, you can turn the brightness down on your CRT projector to the point that you can't see your hand in front of your face, but then you're also (most likely) crushing blacks. So I find it odd when CRT owners tout their black levels because it's usually at the expense of low level detail, and most don't even realize what they're missing.
14 months ago I switched from CRT (A zenith 1200x with 8" LC tubes) to a JVC RS56. I don't use a video processor like the Radiance. My black level detail got better. You can read more about my findings here: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=32973.html
Everything else is better - especially inter-scene ANSI contrast.
Kal |
I have to totally agree with that. My old runco 990 (Nec PG10) had stunning blacks, but i had no idea just how much shadow detail I lost in the process. So I ended up running it at near film brightness to compensate. Basically you still saw a glow on the screen at all times.
My Epson digital still has the glow, but actually a little less with the bonus of stunning shadow detail I couldn't get without external processing, etc.
I still don't mind the very slight glow at total black, as it is still less than film, which in the end we were trying to emulate in our home theaters.
So in a word, NO, crt is still king of black, but at what trade off?
Depending on your personal taste in viewing, however..... I think digital has gotten more than good enough.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't know the JVC number scheme, so I am not sure what year model that is. If it is last years or before, then I have seen it or like model. As far as absolute black, the answer is no. Kal and Marc have expanded on the explanation for overall picture quality.
Now the new models have a dynamic iris. I haven't seen any measurements from my friend Darin yet. If it is in the 100k to 200k to 1 on/off cr range, then it is still not there. Darin measured a gamma corrected CRT at IIRC 700k to 1. Of course the difference will come down to personal preference. I would think that for most movie lovers that it would be of little consequence. Maybe Crabb and Kal can give their opinion after two and one years respectively of how many scenes they think might look better on a CRT vs their JVCs.
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tanwn
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | tanwn: What CRT projector do you have? What video processor do you have?
For most CRT projectors to do near black correctly, you require advanced (multi-point/parametric) gamma adjustment such as found on the Radiance line of video processors. Sure, you can turn the brightness down on your CRT projector to the point that you can't see your hand in front of your face, but then you're also (most likely) crushing blacks. So I find it odd when CRT owners tout their black levels because it's usually at the expense of low level detail, and most don't even realize what they're missing.
14 months ago I switched from CRT (A zenith 1200x with 8" LC tubes) to a JVC RS56. I don't use a video processor like the Radiance. My black level detail got better. You can read more about my findings here: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=32973.html
Everything else is better - especially inter-scene ANSI contrast.
Kal |
I am using a Barco cinemax with moome v3 gamma and serioulsly to date I have yet to see a digital that can do the low key or night scene well. Its not even close to a barco 9inch I am serious. So I was just wondering whether lately any digital like jvcx500/700 has really caught up as I have not seen it yet. I am fine with both technology and would embrace both if digital has caught up with crt. i do hope that one day digital can match a crt mayb with some kind of laser phosphor technology as I pray that my crt and spare parts wil outlive me.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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They are close but i don't think they are equal from what i have seen.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| tanwn wrote: | | I am using a Barco cinemax with moome v3 gamma and serioulsly to date I have yet to see a digital that can do the low key or night scene well. |
You have a very high end CRT projector (pretty much the best) so that's understandable. How does your gamma track at the low end? Do you have a calibration report that shows how it does?
Kal
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to say digital is gaining on CRT rather steadily over the past few years. I've had the chance to demo about 200+ different projectors from 2010 - 2013 model year projectors, and I wouldn't side with digital at all if not for me testing so many different projectors. However, the fact is, I have been fairly impressed with several of them. Many of the Mitsubishi, higher end Epsons, JVC, and even some newer brands that made their debut into the projector market a few years ago have impressive black levels, excellent contrast, brightness, color, etc...
Given the amount of time that digital PJs have been out and about, I think it's pretty safe to say they will soon surpass CRT projectors in overall performance and in each aspect of the PQ. JVC for example, has made many projectors as of the last few years that have made several CRT'ers (Including myself) make the switch to digital. And the result seems to be that most are quite happy with their new digital and don't regret the change.
CRT is a great tech, but eventually it will be something that people will mess with for a hobby at best, since it will become inferior as all video technology usually goes. Doesn't mean you should ditch the CRTs though! (I keep mine around for vintage video games, and for a conversation starter)
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kabuby77
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Craig Rounds is the guy to answer that question. I believe he would tell you that the JVC projectors come the closest to a 9" CRT in black level but they are not quite there yet. From 0-5IRE the CRT still has the advantage. |
You need a pro meter to calibrate 0-10 ire. Yesterday I witnessed to a shootout of this years projectors from 1500 to 10000 euro value. All were calibrated before the test. Nearly all projectors now use the iris, so in dark scenes it's hard to see the difference between the black bars and screen. So if you can afford to spend more than $ 3000 for a projector, do not worry about the black.
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