1:1 Uniformity issue

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jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: 1:1 Uniformity issue

This is one that has myself, MP and Nash stumped. The screen shots below are 1080p/60 and the left box is not playing nicely with the right...

The video chain is Samsung BD6900>Lumagen HDQ>Moome>MP 02 modded VIM>MP VNB modded. I have also fed the BD player directly into the Moome and the results are identical. I checked my optical focus (using phosphor grain test) and it along with astig (in video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koH6lLV6RL0&feature=youtu.be) would appear to be on the mark. The BD player does not have any type of sharpness or image enhancements.

I have tried adjusting G2, Drive, Contrast, Brightness, Astig, EMF and the Lumagen's 1:1 mapping adjustment and nothing seems to have an effect. What am I missing here? And Nash no smart ass "get a digital comments" Rolling Eyes

The Red actually looks better in the photo than it does on screen.

_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!

Nashou66

Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:35 am Post subject:

Well Red looks good, blue vertical lines look brighter and green looks darker. work on green and blue settings I'd say. Nashou _________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan One Smart Dog!!! Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!! Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement Marquee C-element and Bellow removal

mp20748

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: Re: 1:1 Uniformity issue

jbmeyer13 wrote:

This is one that has myself, MP and Nash stumped. The screen shots below are 1080p/60 and the left box is not playing nicely with the right...

I'm not at all stumped here. In fact, this is the first I'm seeing these shots. And I must say that nothing in any of the shots are showing the darkness I was told about.

So I'm more shocked to see this posted, and even more shocked to see that someone else was involved in explaining what should be happening from my boards (when they have no experience with them).

Quote:

The BD player does not have any type of sharpness or image enhancements

This is far from being true. Only a few of the good to better Blu Ray players would have a straight to non manipulated digital output. You would have to understand that some Blu ray players look better on digital displays when the manufacturer softens the image. I've posted on this several times, to include it being mentioned in some of my screenshots when I was also using s SAMSUNG Blu Ray player back during the summer.

Quote:

I have tried adjusting G2, Drive, Contrast, Brightness, Astig, EMF and the Lumagen's 1:1 mapping adjustment and nothing seems to have an effect. What am I missing here? And Nash no smart ass "get a digital comments" Rolling Eyes

What you're missing is by not showing me the shots that you said were DARK, you missed getting an understanding of what is going on in the shots.

First let me point out that I had been mentioning that a different set of filters would be needed on the Moome card, and they would be supplied with the boards or later. That filter would correct the slight roll-off in the green.

also, and as you had told me, your RED CRT is different, And if your tubes are different guess what else would be different??????

And considering the shots you sent me even at the lower scan rates, why would you be expecting a perfect 1:1 when you yourself said they was already something different in your projector.

And should i post the 1:1 I asked you to send me of 1080P /60hz from your projector, that really shows a DARK top left pattern?

Quote:

The Red actually looks better in the photo than it does on screen

I had just mentioned a few days ago, that the proper way to take a picture of the 1:1 is to use ONLY the green, with the reason being how difficult it is to capture that pattern using a camera.

considering the shots you posted, If I had any idea what they actually looked like, I would have told you you are doing well. because all of them are showing that you are either at or very near resolving 1080P /60 hz. and since you have not changed out the filters in the Moome, what your shots are showing is exactly what they should be showing. And in comparison to the shots you sent me of your stock boards, I'm not understanding why you're seeing a problem here, especially when your tubes are not matching.

Oh, BTW. In order for the 1:1 pixel pattern to show perfectly on all three colors, you would need a brand new set of tubes, because when the red and green wear to any degree before the blue, which is always the case, it's hard to get a perfect 1:1 pattern with all three colors matching perfectly.

jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:33 am Post subject: Re: 1:1 Uniformity issue

Quote:

I'm not thinking it has anything to do with the modded boards. As I told you earlier the performance is awesome: I no longer see the line that shows up in dark scene's AND the black pedestal hasn't been compromised to achieve this. To me the left box is darker and I'm trying to understand how to remedy this issue. After you and I spoke on the phone earlier today I asked Nashou if there was anything I had overlooked in my set up, so his comments are related to calibration. Scott (TSE) has told him that G2 and contrast have an effect on 1:1 resolving so he made some recommendations on altering blue tube settings and adjusting blue EMF.

Quote:

The BD player does not have any type of sharpness or image enhancements

This is far from being true. Only the good to better Blu Ray players would have a straight to non softened digital output. You would have to understand that some Blu ray players look better on digital displays when the manufacturer softens the image. I've posted on this several times, to include it being mentioned in some of my screenshots when I was also using s SAMSUNG Blu Ray player back during the summer.

After we spoke about the possibility of sharpness settings on the Samsung I checked the menu and found none. My comment was referring to sharpness adjustability.

Quote:

We never discussed Moome filters but if that's in process then great Thumbs Up

Quote:

also, and as you had told me, your RED CRT is different, And if your tubes are different guess what else would be different??????

The Red is a rebuilt tube but that has nothing to do with what's going on with the green or blue tubes.

Quote:

And considering the shots you sent me even at the lower scan rates, why would you be expecting a perfect 1:1 when you yourself said they was already something different in your projector.

That's exactly the reason I posted this on the forum, something is different with my projector and I'm looking to see if someone else can chime in with ideas that we haven't discussed.

Quote:

And should i post the 1:1 I asked you to send me of 1080P /60hz from your projector, that really shows a DARK top left pattern?

Quote:

The Red actually looks better in the photo than it does on screen

I had just mentioned a few days ago, that the proper way to take a picture of the 1:1 is the use ONLY the green, with the reason being how difficult it is to capture that pattern using a camera.

Quote:

considering the shots you posted, If I had any idea what they actually looked like, I would have told you are doing well.

Quote:

because all of them are showing that you are either at or very near resolving 1080P /60 hz. and since you have not changed out the filters in the Moome, what your shots are showing is exactly what they should be showing. And in comparison to the shots you sent me of your stock boards, I'm not understanding why you're seeing a problem here, especially when your tubes are not matching.

No question that things are better now. Again, the point of my post is to go deeper and try to find out what is responsible for not achieving perfect uniformity. I have ruled out the VIM/VNB so the question is what next?

Quote:

Oh, BTW. In order for the 1:1 pixel pattern to show perfectly on all three colors, you would need a brand new set of tubes, because when the red and green wear to any degree before the blue, which is always the case, it's hard to get a perfect 1:1 pattern.

Green and Blue were replaced at the same time last summer (NOS Panny LCP). So basically, 1:1 on all 3 colors would be a relatively short lived experience since Green and Red wear faster than blue?

Quote:

People who have asked me to be a tester has never posted anything without me being 100% involved before this

Being a tester of your boards has nothing to do with this issue as I don't see the either the VNB or VIM having anything to do with trying to attain perfect 1:1 at this point in the juncture. The video chain is the strongest link, the question is what is off. Is it hardware or set up?
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!

jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:41 am Post subject:

Hey Mike, You are correct that the photo I sent you earlier was 1080p/60 from my iphone. The photos from the first post in this thread were taken afterward with a DSLR so they are obviously of better quality. Regards, Justin _________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!

mp20748

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:43 am Post subject:

jbmeyer13 wrote:

Hey Mike,

You are correct that the photo I sent you earlier was 1080p/60 from my iphone. The photos from the first post in this thread were taken afterward with a DSLR so they are obviously of better quality.

Regards,

Justin

So your first shots sent to me were of low quality, that clearly showed serious darkness, and these are more acurate to what you are seeing on your screen?

jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:10 am Post subject:

Yeah for sure. The shots above are 6000 x 4000 taken on a tripod. Red is the hardest to photograph and green is easiest so green is good to use as the benchmark. _________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!

mp20748

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:55 am Post subject: Re: 1:1 Uniformity issue

jbmeyer13 wrote:

We never discussed Moome filters but if that's in process then great Thumbs Up

I know I had closed off that section of my forum, but it was posted there and you should have seen it, but not only did I mention filters there. its also mentioned in the other thread you started. Plus, I also went over the mini board:

mp20748 wrote:

Guys, if you have a second (hopefully modified) VIM (either 02 or 03) try this:

if you're able to pull up pins 11 and 14 on each of the three SD5401 chips, and once you have them out of the way, put a small jumper on the circuit trace where pins 11 and 14 were soldered.

Put that VIM in your projector and let me know if you're able to see the difference in sharpness and bandwidth increase.

Or you could check out the two shots I posted below. I'm sending 1920X1440 /60hz directly into my Marquee using RGBHV:

The RED is using the jumper, when done it by-passes the video section of the SD5401 switch.

The Green is without the jumper, with the signal going through the video section of the SD5401 switch.

I am using my modified 02 VIM. The RED is not really brighter, it's more intensified that its hard to capture it with the camera. Now I know why the VIM with the mini board was better.

With the jumper on the red, my Marquee is 100% resolving 1920X1080P /60hz. Very Happy

Let's look at the next here:

Quote:

The Red is a rebuilt tube but that has nothing to do with what's going on with the green or blue tubes.

So you think that it was fair of you to ask this question openly, without providing information on your rebuilt red tube, that was done back in 2002 that also has differences in red illumination in various areas of the projected image?

Should you have also posted a shot of the same picture you sent me, because how could you get help for this problem, without submitting the same known flaws you pointed out to me.

And you still think the defective red tube will not effect the green and blue when they are all on at the same time?

Quote:

No, you sent me what I asked for and that was 1920x1080P /60hz. And the entire left side was very dark... And could this problem today be related to bandwidth, I'm not sure. And that is the main reason this version of the mods have not been released (look at the other thread you started). But for sure, you would need to do a calibration at 1080P before that pattern will work out best. And that's why Kurt's pattern is tight, he has calibrated his Marquee and have posted this:

https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34966.html

However, what I can tell you based on the graph and the other color test that I've performed, whatever you're seeing in the smpte pattern has absolutely NO effect on the colors and their accuracy. That I know for sure, because it passes all of the standards for proper colors.

Quote:

I'm not sure you understand what is expected of someone when you are chosen to be a tester. Surely for the very first time in the ten years of me working on several different things, this is the first time I've had anyone involve someone else in my testing and do so without contacting me first.

jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1:1 Uniformity issue

Quote:

We never discussed Moome filters but if that's in process then great Thumbs Up

Well I never saw it and your forum has been down (I just tried to go twice over the weekend) which I forgot to mention to you yesterday on the phone. Having said that, I don't spend very much time there as it seems like you are far more active on this forum. I try to keep up the best I can but I don't read every thread so unless you tell me something directly it's very possible that I'll be behind the curve on critical info.

Quote:

Let's look at the next here:

Quote:

The Red is a rebuilt tube but that has nothing to do with what's going on with the green or blue tubes.

Instead of posting the shot I sent you I took a better one with the DSLR (once my wife was done using it). I didn't see the need to post both.

Of course Red will effect 1:1 when all three colors are on but it does not effect the Green or Blue when only one of them is on. The Green and Blue have <400 hours on them and they are displaying differences between the L/R 1:1 boxes. Simply put, if the green is a freshly broken in tube then I don't think the culprit is the tube but something related to either calibration or a separate component outside the video chain. Again this is my opinion but I'm open to suggestions.

Quote:

I think what I sent you was 1080p/48 but feel free to post it. Regardless of what resolution I use I see differences in the left/right boxes. That would indicate to me that the issue is not bandwidth but something else.

No, you sent me what I asked for and that was 1920x1080P /60hz. And the entire left side was very dark... And could this problem today be related to bandwidth, I'm not sure. And that is the main reason this version of the mods have not been released (look at the other thread you started). But for sure, you would need to do a calibration at 1080P before that pattern will work out best. And that's why Kurt's pattern is tight, he has calibrated his Marquee and have posted this:

https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34966.html

However, what I can tell you based on the graph and the other color test that I've performed, whatever you're seeing in the smpte pattern has absolutely NO effect on the colors and their accuracy. That I know for sure, because it passes all of the standards for proper colors.

Regarding color accuracy, this echoes what Nash has been saying to me for the past several months.

Quote:

Involve someone else? I'm not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion as I'm the only one with your boards. For the past several months (long before I received your boards) I have been having conversations with Nash regarding calibration and specifically 1:1. Recently I have also been talking to Kurt. Both of them spend countless hours fiddling with their color meters/calibration software and are very knowledgeable on this subject as it relates to the Marquee. As you pointed out above a calibration is required to attain perfect 1:1 and I have been making adjustments to G2, astig, etc. but have not been able to achieve the desired result.
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!

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