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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Diddern.
Why you think we prefer to evaluate on specifik test patterns where we know the content.? specialy when douing screenshots.?
Maybe there are some parameters we can evaluate no matter how sh*tty the camera and how off balance is..
But your shot ilustrate quite well some of what goes on ..
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Well it wasnt a bad day, so thanks   |
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Diddern.
Why you think we prefer to evaluate on specifik test patterns where we know the content.? specialy when douing screenshots.?
Maybe there are some parameters we can evaluate no matter how sh*tty the camera and how off balance is..
But your shot ilustrate quite well some of what goes on .. |
When i say to you that the photos of this pattern, that is made for CRT as I hope you know.
Shows in my cinema same light output and black and white lines in all corners and in senter.
Also 1:1 so why can't it be possible for you to see that a photo gives just a indication like you see from the pic.
In a test pattern it's many factors that a camera can't get on picture. If a camera think that white and black together gets white in on one pic and black in another one, it does not mean its wrong. It means that screenshot is useless. That is my point when taken by different camera. Your pics from the jvc and the marquee is the same camera and the indication is that your CRT shows this test pattern better than your jvc.
But the question is does it show better movie or do you watch this as a normal film?
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I generally sit there and watch 2 hours of test patterns, i find it somewhat invigorating...
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I generally sit there and watch 2 hours of test patterns, i find it somewhat invigorating... |
Then It's time to wake upp hehe,and watch a good movie on a Saturday instead.
And you get kind of strange in your head also, by watching it. The picture moves with different images.
And that is amazing believe me. Some here should try it. Hehe happy test pattern weekend for some.
Or for normal people happy movie weekend. Hehe
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I generally sit there and watch 2 hours of test patterns, i find it somewhat invigorating... |
Then It's time to wake upp hehe,and watch a good movie on a Saturday instead.
And you get kind of strange in your head also, by watching it. The picture moves with different images.
And that is amazing believe me. Some here should try it. Hehe happy test pattern weekend for some.
Or for normal people happy movie weekend. Hehe
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Well maybe you dont belive it, but i actualy watch around 2 movise a day..
But testpatterns is a powerfull tool, and without it i think its imposible to hunt down problems and make adjustments or changes to reach a reference leve, or the best compromise betwen settings.
Movie material is to complex to evaluate, all the way down to single pixel basis.
So yeah i watch a lot of patterns when testing new gear to reach pixel perfect, perfect bandwidth response, it secure that high resolution portions of the movie dont get muted, or scaled with serious dynamic lost and unwanted artifacts.
Can happen anywhere in the video chain.. player Videoprocessor projector, and whatever stuff is conected.
But im sure you know all that.
Its like seeing some guys modding CRT machines, put a movie and say wow much better, but they got no idea what changed, maybe bandwidth, maybe gamma, maybe just the calibration settings.. Sometimes/ most times modding can create more problems then solving problems.
Even bit dept are set wrong on most players from factory.. Some just think that changing 8bit to 12 bit is right.. Guess what..
Its just messing with your native signal.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I generally sit there and watch 2 hours of test patterns, i find it somewhat invigorating... |
Then It's time to wake upp hehe,and watch a good movie on a Saturday instead.
And you get kind of strange in your head also, by watching it. The picture moves with different images.
And that is amazing believe me. Some here should try it. Hehe happy test pattern weekend for some.
Or for normal people happy movie weekend. Hehe
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Well maybe you dont belive it, but i actualy watch around 2 movise a day..
But testpatterns is a powerfull tool, and without it i think its imposible to hunt down problems and make adjustments or changes to reach a reference leve, or the best compromise betwen settings.
Movie material is to complex to evaluate, all the way down to single pixel basis.
So yeah i watch a lot of patterns when testing new gear to reach pixel perfect, perfect bandwidth response, it secure that high resolution portions of the movie dont get muted, or scaled with serious dynamic lost and unwanted artifacts.
Can happen anywhere in the video chain.. player Videoprocessor projector, and whatever stuff is conected.
But im sure you know all that.
Its like seeing some guys modding CRT machines, put a movie and say wow much better, but they got no idea what changed, maybe bandwidth, maybe gamma, maybe just the calibration settings.. Sometimes/ most times modding can create more problems then solving problems.
Even bit dept are set wrong on most players from factory.. Some just think that changing 8bit to 12 bit is right.. Guess what..
Its just messing with your native signal. |
God to hear that you also watch movies. I was worried for there for a second.
You are right when it comes to a CRT that there are many factors.
And I'm shore that adjusting this correct you get a better picture on your CRT.
By calibrating a digital hi end projector today then with a pro. You got a very god start point.
And is also correct that a source can mess up a signal some.
But not easy seen in a movie. And the best is to use a player that can play source direct.
So just clean as possible signal and picture.
And I hope that you saw that a picture taken with different cameras can fool you.
No one can make me believe that a optima like 720p projector is close to a marquee 9500 ultra.
But in my eyes the picture looks sharper some better debt, and colors bad on both.
To much saturated on the CRT and to little on the optima 720p.
The fact here is that screenshots are useless unless taken by same camera and same shutter. Like I did in the test that you have seen.
Happy weekend enough for today.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: |
enough for today. |
Thanks
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Your right with the screenshots in some ways, but its still possible to see the addet sharpness of the digital, and i actualy think the pictures also tells that the colors are off on both projectors.. If they were closer to perfect calibrated the camera would be in play.
Ill say one is to green, the other is to blue.. More than any camera normaly would mess up.
Im also sure your calibrator uses testpatterns, just to confirm settings, even with source direct on the player, where its still possible to mess up colorspace and add deep color mess on some players, Source direct most of the time only refer to pixel perfect output.
And in many ways testpatterns are more needet with digital projectors, who can mess the input more up with overscan and stuff, thats not a option on a CRT it just display what put into it. With the benefits and limitations the analog vidio path in the CRT will have.
In the ende i belive that most digital panels also needs a analog signal to controle each pixel, and determin the level of light, other than DLP who is just on off.
No matter if the Da converter is on the display chip or external. That will also have a response time/ bandwidth, guess thats also why most digitals also fight with the high resolution pattern.
Maybe someone in here can actulay explain how JVC and SONY panels are working. Im just guessing.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Your right with the screenshots in some ways, but its still possible to see the addet sharpness of the digital, and i actualy think the pictures also tells that the colors are off on both projectors.. If they were closer to perfect calibrated the camera would be in play.
Ill say one is to green, the other is to blue.. More than any camera normaly would mess up.
Im also sure your calibrator uses testpatterns, just to confirm settings, even with source direct on the player, where its still possible to mess up colorspace and add deep color mess on some players, Source direct most of the time only refer to pixel perfect output.
And in many ways testpatterns are more needet with digital projectors, who can mess the input more up with overscan and stuff, thats not a option on a CRT it just display what put into it. With the benefits and limitations the analog vidio path in the CRT will have.
In the ende i belive that most digital panels also needs a analog signal to controle each pixel, and determin the level of light, other than DLP who is just on off.
No matter if the Da converter is on the display chip or external. That will also have a response time/ bandwidth, guess thats also why most digitals also fight with the high resolution pattern.
Maybe someone in here can actulay explain how JVC and SONY panels are working. Im just guessing. |
The added sharpness tyst you talk abort is that you are used to a supersoft image on the Crt.
And not see the benefit of real resolution 1080p this in my eyes.
Andreas know this better than me about the jvc and the Sony.
I will not explain something if I am not 100% shore. You can eazely check this out on the net.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that CRT is soft, But its possible to make them sharper than any CRT you have ever seen.
We can also ask.. What makes the best picture..? A digital or analog camera.. a given resolution, or a endless resolution with no square pixels.?
I know our source is digital.. but filming makes someone break reality into resolution/ squares, i think some of the advantage of crt is that it breaks up the squares a way that in the end reminds more of reality. Look outside see how sharp it all looks.. Hmm no it actualy dont look sharp. Pixels will ad a false sharpness to reality. where you have to decide a color and a level to each pixel, and have a gap betwen them..
So ill say.. One is to sharp, another is to soft.. Who wants what..? Preference.? No one is more right than the other..
Then we can add scaling, and get totaly lost to reality.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | I agree that CRT is soft, But its possible to make them sharper than any CRT you have ever seen.
We can also ask.. What makes the best picture..? A digital or analog camera.. a given resolution, or a endless resolution with no square pixels.?
I know our source is digital.. but filming makes someone break reality into resolution/ squares, i think some of the advantage of crt is that it breaks up the squares a way that in the end reminds more of reality. Look outside see how sharp it all looks.. Hmm no it actualy dont look sharp. Pixels will ad a false sharpness to reality. where you have to decide a color and a level to each pixel, and have a gap betwen them..
So ill say.. One is to sharp, another is to soft.. Who wants what..? Preference.? No one is more right than the other..
Then we can add scaling, and get totaly lost to reality. |
No projector I have seen make picture to sharp, then wrong adjusted.
So you say that digital is to sharp?
For me it's closer to what you see in real life. In every aspect.
That is also what you like. But again if you put 1000 people in a room and show them today a hi end CRT vs a normal good digital. That's a fact.
Not one will pick the CRT. Why? And you will say not me. I talk about normal people. Hehe
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have tested unbiased persons here who dont own or wish to own projectors, on my JVC and my Vidikron Vision One, and asking them wich one they felt looked most natural.
I got the same ansver every time..
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | I have tested unbiased persons here who dont own or wish to own projectors, on my JVC and my Vidikron Vision One, and asking them wich one they felt looked most natural.
I got the same ansver every time.. |
Then Special people in Denmark or how you sell in the product.
Fact.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have tested unbiased persons here who dont own or wish to own projectors, on my JVC and my Vidikron Vision One, and asking them wich one they felt looked most natural.
I got the same ansver every time.. |
Then Special people in Denmark or how you sell in the product.
Fact. |
Im not sellig anything, i just gave people the option of watching the movie on what projector they wanted. with max performance from both machines. Identical gamma. Same screen same room..
Why do you have a problem with that..?
Im confident they had selected the JVC if we had used any Barco CRT as the other option.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have tested unbiased persons here who dont own or wish to own projectors, on my JVC and my Vidikron Vision One, and asking them wich one they felt looked most natural.
I got the same ansver every time.. |
Then Special people in Denmark or how you sell in the product.
Fact. |
Im not sellig anything, i just gave people the option of watching the movie on what projector they wanted. with max performance from both machines. Identical gamma. Same screen same room..
Why do you have a problem with that..?
Im confident they had selected the JVC if we had used any Barco CRT as the other option. |
No problem for me I know the fact,why do you have a problem with the vw1000?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a shot from the Vidikron, i promise you that looking that image on both you would swear that the CRT had higher resolution.
With the nose 30cm from the screen.
And thats with a standard bandwidth as shown in the pic.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have tested unbiased persons here who dont own or wish to own projectors, on my JVC and my Vidikron Vision One, and asking them wich one they felt looked most natural.
I got the same ansver every time.. |
Then Special people in Denmark or how you sell in the product.
Fact. |
Im not sellig anything, i just gave people the option of watching the movie on what projector they wanted. with max performance from both machines. Identical gamma. Same screen same room..
Why do you have a problem with that..?
Im confident they had selected the JVC if we had used any Barco CRT as the other option. |
No problem for me I know the fact,why do you have a problem with the vw1000? |
I never comented on the live performance of the SONY, never seen it, so how can i.?
Im just explaining my experiences with native resolution displayed material, on at the time considered reference digital projectors for home cinema.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Here is a shot from the Vidikron, i promise you that looking that image on both you would swear that the CRT had higher resolution.
With the nose 30cm from the screen.
And thats with a standard bandwidth as shown in the pic. |
When you showed the picture from your marquee and your jvc I wonder if I can talk about resolution without being rude.
Can't you see that. You only see one thing what about the rest?
I suppose that does not matter. But now need to do other stuff than this.
Have a nice Saturday. Waste of time.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Here is a shot from the Vidikron, i promise you that looking that image on both you would swear that the CRT had higher resolution.
With the nose 30cm from the screen.
And thats with a standard bandwidth as shown in the pic. |
When you showed the picture from your marquee and your jvc I wonder if I can talk about resolution without being rude.
Can't you see that. You only see one thing what about the rest?
I suppose that does not matter. But now need to do other stuff than this.
Have a nice Saturday. Waste of time. |
Yeah well no body realy belive you will stay away, so here we go again..
Im new to CRT..
Less than 2 years ago i never seen one, just digital projectors.
I had my JVC long before buying a CRT, and never ever seen other than a BARCO 808 before. ( not impressed)
It was pure luck crosing the Vidikron, and getting the option to play with a CRT..
2 days after i got it i had the feeling that there was no way back for me.. I lost the interest in the JVC.
Some reasons.. stability,/ extreme color drift, limited lamp life, pixel structure, all areas where the CRT did better, later came other parameters.
So its not like i never got out of CRT, or was adicted to old stuff projection, or soft image.
Now a guy like you that never owned a high end CRT, i would not expect you to understand.
Try define your definition of resolution, i think we have a different way of undrstanding that..?
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