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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:06 am    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im looking at your picture Andreas..

But it looks a bit wierd.. It looks like your camera addet lots of sharpness.. edge ringing and stuff.. same effect i seen on some of the other SONY pictures.

Is this whats on screen, or is that the camera or software your using.?

What i see is that its not holding the light level perfect at all resolutions, and it seems that the scaling roles off the level on the outer pixels on the edge of the lines, and not the same way on both vertical and horisontal.


Like I have said earlier the Sony VW1000 upscaling and Reality Creation can add some edgeenhancement/ringing, and on this testpattern it is barly visible when you stand really close to the screen. And what you see as alot of added sharpness I am not sure, but it might be that you are so used to the CRT picture that I concider very soft?? And I also wrote that I measured the different lines both horizontally and vertically and they show about the same lightoutput on all the different lines in the group. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is showing the testpattern really good I think. Maby I will post a closeup later today of the center group if I have time before I go up to my cabin in the woods to relax for the weekend. Wink


No need to post the closeup, we seen that here, it looks the same as what you just posted.

What i prefer is a shot with lower resolution or getting more away from the screen so the ringing and enhancment dont mess up the way the camera see the light output, so far back, or so low resolution that the resolution pattern just look like a gray area, with no lines.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject:

I see some extra edgeenhancement when I zoom in the picture, but it is not on screen and I dont know where it is added if it is in the camera or photoshop. I only used photoshop to downscale and I have a Canon EOS 500 with a good canon lens that I dont remember the specs on.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im looking at your picture Andreas..

But it looks a bit wierd.. It looks like your camera addet lots of sharpness.. edge ringing and stuff.. same effect i seen on some of the other SONY pictures.

Is this whats on screen, or is that the camera or software your using.?

What i see is that its not holding the light level perfect at all resolutions, and it seems that the scaling roles off the level on the outer pixels on the edge of the lines, and not the same way on both vertical and horisontal.


Like I have said earlier the Sony VW1000 upscaling and Reality Creation can add some edgeenhancement/ringing, and on this testpattern it is barly visible when you stand really close to the screen. And what you see as alot of added sharpness I am not sure, but it might be that you are so used to the CRT picture that I concider very soft?? And I also wrote that I measured the different lines both horizontally and vertically and they show about the same lightoutput on all the different lines in the group. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is showing the testpattern really good I think. Maby I will post a closeup later today of the center group if I have time before I go up to my cabin in the woods to relax for the weekend. Wink


No need to post the closeup, we seen that here, it looks the same as what you just posted.

What i prefer is a shot with lower resolution or getting more away from the screen so the ringing and enhancment dont mess up the way the camera see the light output, so far back, or so low resolution that the resolution pattern just look like a gray area, with no lines.


I have told you that it makes no big difference how far away I go in my cinema it is 6m deep it still looks almost the same. I will post a picture taken from 6m away later today if I make it before I leave for the woods/mountain.

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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im looking at your picture Andreas..

But it looks a bit wierd.. It looks like your camera addet lots of sharpness.. edge ringing and stuff.. same effect i seen on some of the other SONY pictures.

Is this whats on screen, or is that the camera or software your using.?

What i see is that its not holding the light level perfect at all resolutions, and it seems that the scaling roles off the level on the outer pixels on the edge of the lines, and not the same way on both vertical and horisontal.


Like I have said earlier the Sony VW1000 upscaling and Reality Creation can add some edgeenhancement/ringing, and on this testpattern it is barly visible when you stand really close to the screen. And what you see as alot of added sharpness I am not sure, but it might be that you are so used to the CRT picture that I concider very soft?? And I also wrote that I measured the different lines both horizontally and vertically and they show about the same lightoutput on all the different lines in the group. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is showing the testpattern really good I think. Maby I will post a closeup later today of the center group if I have time before I go up to my cabin in the woods to relax for the weekend. Wink


No need to post the closeup, we seen that here, it looks the same as what you just posted.

What i prefer is a shot with lower resolution or getting more away from the screen so the ringing and enhancment dont mess up the way the camera see the light output, so far back, or so low resolution that the resolution pattern just look like a gray area, with no lines.


I have told you that it makes no big difference how far away I go in my cinema it is 6m deep it still looks almost the same. I will post a picture taken from 6m away later today if I make it before I leave for the woods/mountain.


Nice thanks..

The important stuff is that your camera dont capture the pixel structure, it makes the image quite confusing to look at when evaluating the light level.

And resizing it here made it look all messed up, like the first iphone pic of the sony 3,7m back, i cant explain whats going on, but i cant repeat that on any of my own screenshot when resizing them, maybe something to do with the resolution.
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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject:

Here is a singel chip DLP 1:1 resolution shot.. look at that.. Perfect.. Its a 720P native resolution with a 720P pattern.

Its also very visible in any movie with much better fine detail dynamic and ansi contrast.

There is no level role off, peaking or color shift no matter what resolution the content on screen shows.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Here is a singel chip DLP 1:1 resolution shot.. look at that.. Perfect.. Its a 720P native resolution with a 720P pattern.

Its also very visible in any movie with much better fine detail dynamic and ansi contrast.

There is no level role off, peaking or color shift no matter what resolution the content on screen shows.


This looks very nice, but if you think a single chip 720p looks better than the VW1000 in fine detail, dynamics and ansi contrast when watching a movie you need to think again. Wink And the single chip DLP also has a great advantge when it has sero convergence because it is a single chip.

And you say it is importand not to make the camera pick up the pixelstructure and it is clearly visible in that 720 picture, or maby it is the screen texture(it looks like a transparent screen). On the VW1000 you can forget about pixelstructure, you have to get the camera at only a few inches from the screen to capture the pixelstructure of the VW1000.

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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Here is a singel chip DLP 1:1 resolution shot.. look at that.. Perfect.. Its a 720P native resolution with a 720P pattern.

Its also very visible in any movie with much better fine detail dynamic and ansi contrast.

There is no level role off, peaking or color shift no matter what resolution the content on screen shows.


This looks very nice, but if you think a single chip 720p looks better than the VW1000 in fine detail and ansi contrast when watching a movie you need to think again. Wink


You are so focused on your SONY that you cant se past your nose tip.

No one are trying to prove anything is best..

We are looking single parameters on some testpatterns

What preferences you have is all yours, Im just proving that no single tech have the benefit of being bast at everything.

The DLP have its shortcommings, so do the JVC and the SONY and any CRT.

The nature of these shortcommings and what they do good or perfect, matched to your preferences will give the projector matching your taste the best.

It all down to what we each are able to see in a image.

Ill prefer to see native 720P material on a 720P projector any day over 720P material upscaled to 1080P to a 1080P projector.

Pixel perfect is a hard thing to match when needs to be true to the source material, and see whats on the disc.

Thats my preference, not something i want you to understand, or prefer.
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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject:

Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!

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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.


I use a Lumagen XS with my VW1000 so I could probarbly do it, but I won´t spend any more time with this. I will post a closeup and one taken from almost 6m and then I am done with this, I know what my VW1000 is good for and I enjoy watching movies and have good time. Wink

_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.


I use a Lumagen XS with my VW1000 so I could probarbly do it, but I won´t spend any more time with this. I will post a closeup and one taken from almost 6m and then I am done with this, I know what my VW1000 is good for and I enjoy watching movies and have good time. Wink


No the XS wont do 4K so it wont do it.. you need a 4K output who will map the source 1:1 on the output resolution.

You will need the new Radiance 4K processor to do that.

I just thought that SONY migth give the option in the internal scaler.. It would be perfect to display what to expect from native 4K source matched to the panel resolution.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.


I use a Lumagen XS with my VW1000 so I could probarbly do it, but I won´t spend any more time with this. I will post a closeup and one taken from almost 6m and then I am done with this, I know what my VW1000 is good for and I enjoy watching movies and have good time. Wink


No the XS wont do 4K so it wont do it.. you need a 4K output who will map the source 1:1 on the output resolution.

You will need the new Radiance 4K processor to do that.

I just thought that SONY migth give the option in the internal scaler.. It would be perfect to display what to expect from native 4K source matched to the panel resolution.


I know what to expect when it is fed a 4K native source matching the panel resolution as I have see alot of native 4K on it, and it is simply stunning.

I am waiting for the 4K in and 4K out version of the Lumagen I have not bothered bying the 2041 or 2042.

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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject:

mp20748 wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im looking at your picture Andreas..

But it looks a bit wierd.. It looks like your camera addet lots of sharpness.. edge ringing and stuff.. same effect i seen on some of the other SONY pictures.

Is this whats on screen, or is that the camera or software your using.?

What i see is that its not holding the light level perfect at all resolutions, and it seems that the scaling roles off the level on the outer pixels on the edge of the lines, and not the same way on both vertical and horisontal.


Like I have said earlier the Sony VW1000 upscaling and Reality Creation can add some edgeenhancement/ringing, and on this testpattern it is barly visible when you stand really close to the screen. And what you see as alot of added sharpness I am not sure, but it might be that you are so used to the CRT picture that I concider very soft?? And I also wrote that I measured the different lines both horizontally and vertically and they show about the same lightoutput on all the different lines in the group. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is showing the testpattern really good I think. Maby I will post a closeup later today og the center group if I have time before I go up to my cabin in the woods to relax for the weekend. Wink


Have a good weekend!


Thank you! And the same to you! Thumbs Up

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kabuby77



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy

Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Ill prefer to see native 720P material on a 720P projector any day over 720P material upscaled to 1080P to a 1080P projector.


Everyone here will forget that in real images do not exist perfectly horizontal and vertical lines, and that the edge of the objects in our eyes is a continuous line and not pixelated. This fact made the crt better(natural) than the first digital projectors. The best way to upscale Hd material is to use UHD because you double H and V pixels.
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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.


I use a Lumagen XS with my VW1000 so I could probarbly do it, but I won´t spend any more time with this. I will post a closeup and one taken from almost 6m and then I am done with this, I know what my VW1000 is good for and I enjoy watching movies and have good time. Wink


No the XS wont do 4K so it wont do it.. you need a 4K output who will map the source 1:1 on the output resolution.

You will need the new Radiance 4K processor to do that.

I just thought that SONY migth give the option in the internal scaler.. It would be perfect to display what to expect from native 4K source matched to the panel resolution.


I know what to expect when it is fed a 4K native source matching the panel resolution as I have see alot of native 4K on it, and it is simply stunning.

I am waiting for the 4K in and 4K out version of the Lumagen I have not bothered bying the 2041 or 2042.


I can understand why someone skips a radiance who dont support 4K input.

Lets emagine i was head of SONY Projector department..

Then the 9" 16:9 G90 Ultra would hit the streets next spring..

Ohh , not that imagination.

Make a demo Blu ray with movie clips and testpatterns, that contains normal zoomed up content to display pixel perfect in the center of the panel, and the same content with black borders to upscale for the same image in the center panel, just upscaled.

When you say 4K material, what bit dept and how compressed is it.?
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject:

CRT projector - 1920X1080P /60hz

My 03 that's waiting on the mini board mod.



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stridsvognen
Guest






Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject:

Thanks Mike that looks amasing..

Can you post the time in the movie these frames are located, maybe some digital owners can shoot the same scenes..

Maybe ecrab ?

If he dont have the movie, we need to buy him one and shipp it over.

Just to see how a perfect screenshot compares to yours Mike.
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject:

So now this is a screenshot war?? Very Happy

I think screenshot wars are such bull**** and has nothing to do with reality if the picture is not taken in the same room with the same camera and camerasettings. Screenshots taken in differnt rooms and different cameras is totally worthless!

The screenshots Mike took look great, but it is no problem to make a 1000$ Dlp look the same.

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Last edited by Andreas21 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Andreas21



Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582


Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Andreas21 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Ohh i have a question..

Is it possible to select pixel perfect on the sony so it will map the 1080P image on the panels 1:1 making a smal image in the center of the screen.?

And then maybe zoom it up as much as possible, or fill the screen if possible.?


No, not that I know of. But it will still not be 1:1 pixelmapping.

I will post a picture similar to the one you posted of the DLP if I make it today and then you can come with your verdict. But I think it is very difficult for you to admit the VW1000 is a very good machine and that it does show this pattern really good. The reason I "defend" the VW1000 is all you do is try to come up with something that shows this pattern better and you are not willing to say the VW1000 also shows this pattern very good, but I say it is not perfect!


I mean adressing each pixel to 1 pixel in the display, no scaling of any kind, I can do that im My Crystalio 2

I can do it on the Lumagen to, but then i need to crop the image and make it pixel perfect, takes forever,

Im just douing this with a Laserdisc image, mapping it 1:1 on the 720 DLP..

The image is tiny.. But free of all kind of messed up artifacts, its quite cool.. So now i can see whats on the disc, not what a mess the scalers make.


I use a Lumagen XS with my VW1000 so I could probarbly do it, but I won´t spend any more time with this. I will post a closeup and one taken from almost 6m and then I am done with this, I know what my VW1000 is good for and I enjoy watching movies and have good time. Wink


No the XS wont do 4K so it wont do it.. you need a 4K output who will map the source 1:1 on the output resolution.

You will need the new Radiance 4K processor to do that.

I just thought that SONY migth give the option in the internal scaler.. It would be perfect to display what to expect from native 4K source matched to the panel resolution.


I know what to expect when it is fed a 4K native source matching the panel resolution as I have see alot of native 4K on it, and it is simply stunning.

I am waiting for the 4K in and 4K out version of the Lumagen I have not bothered bying the 2041 or 2042.


I can understand why someone skips a radiance who dont support 4K input.

Lets emagine i was head of SONY Projector department..

Then the 9" 16:9 G90 Ultra would hit the streets next spring..

Ohh , not that imagination.

Make a demo Blu ray with movie clips and testpatterns, that contains normal zoomed up content to display pixel perfect in the center of the panel, and the same content with black borders to upscale for the same image in the center panel, just upscaled.

When you say 4K material, what bit dept and how compressed is it.?


For you that might be a dream that Sony and the other companies started making CRT´s again, but that is never going to happen. Sonys top model HT projector now is the VW1100 and it is coming out these days and every VW1000 has the oportunity to upgrade their VW1000 to a VW1100 via a mainboard change so it supports HDMI 2.0 and HTCP 2.2 and some other things the upgrade will provide. My VW1000 will receive this upgrade in desember or january.

It is only 8 bits and that is a great limitation. But I have the movie Timescapes, I dont know the compression rate, but it is 200Gb and it is only a 50 minute movie. So it is quite high bitrate. I also have some Sony demonstration material that looks great, but I dont have the specs.

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