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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | Can you give me any facts about the Sony VW1000 upscaling algorythms?
And what would these artifacts look like since they would just stick out to you. |
I think i can ansver that..
You wont notice after they done the cleanup, but its sure not true to the source material, but a qualified guess.
A bit like when you scale DVD to 1080P just that you dont need the deinterlacing.
There u also have lots of parameters to adjust.. some will cover the artifacts and ringing, others will make it worse..
Sure sony spend a lot of time tweaking that so you wont see those down sides to scaling.
A pixel perfect display should look sharper, and true to the source.
I bet you also need to run some sort of reality engine to make it ok to look at.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Mike its not nice of you slapping people in the face with FACTS. Shame on you..!! |
And what facts was he slapping?? |
I'm glad you asked...
in the shot I have two boards out of a Barco commercial digital projector. I'm using two boards to show both sides. the board in the picture is called an "Image Processor Board"
As such, it's job is to process the image in the digital format. A very small part of the board accepts RGBHV and also S-video and composite. Another section of that same board converts that analog video to digital. The main section of the board (about 85%) is used to process (MAP/ Interpolate) signals that are different from the pixel resolution of the display device.
Also meaning that if you run a native source into that board, you would not be using 85% of it.
The same happens when processing for 4K, but there's one other than going on other than mapping and interpolating, that is cover up. they call it something else, but I thought I would give you a more understandable meaning.
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Do you have any clue at all what you talking about.
My God we found fanboy nr 1 hehe
This is like talking to a 4 year old kid and not the only one.
Grow up you're just write total bull****.
Last edited by Diddern on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Can you give me any facts about the Sony VW1000 upscaling algorythms?
And what would these artifacts look like since they would just stick out to you. |
I think i can ansver that..
You wont notice after they done the cleanup, but its sure not true to the source material, but a qualified guess.
A bit like when you scale DVD to 1080P just that you dont need the deinterlacing.
There u also have lots of parameters to adjust.. some will cover the artifacts and ringing, others will make it worse..
Sure sony spend a lot of time tweaking that so you wont see those down sides to scaling.
A pixel perfect display should look sharper, and true to the source.
I bet you also need to run some sort of reality engine to make it ok to look at. |
And you know this ?
Give me a breake.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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stridsvognen:
You can not answer that only the Sony engineers can answer that and it is clear you people have no clue.
So you mean a 1080p picture would look sharper than a upscaled 1080p picture? You are right in theory, but not in real life. If you compare the same 1080p picture with a high end 1080p projector and the VW1000 the VW1000 is clearly sharper. And the reality engine (Reality Creation) you talk about is part of the 4K upscaling algorytms Sony use in the scaler. Of course the scaler need to cover artifacts, but it does this in a way that it is not visible when watching movies. I have done this (4K) for 2 years now and I know what I am doing when I test (tested different projectors the last 10 years) projectors and I would be the first to say if the 4K upscaling was bad, and I would not own this projector if it was. The Sony scaler has some slight artifacts like ringing/edge enhancement, but it is very slight and not noticable in movies.
What the Sony algorythms is trying to do and it does it very good is to try to be true to the source, I have seen demos about it with a Sony technitian and the info was classified and no pictures was allowed to be taken so I can not explain it.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Can you give me any facts about the Sony VW1000 upscaling algorythms?
And what would these artifacts look like since they would just stick out to you. |
I think i can ansver that..
You wont notice after they done the cleanup, but its sure not true to the source material, but a qualified guess.
A bit like when you scale DVD to 1080P just that you dont need the deinterlacing.
There u also have lots of parameters to adjust.. some will cover the artifacts and ringing, others will make it worse..
Sure sony spend a lot of time tweaking that so you wont see those down sides to scaling.
A pixel perfect display should look sharper, and true to the source.
I bet you also need to run some sort of reality engine to make it ok to look at. |
You are right about one thing, the artifacts is not visible after the cleanup! 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any color manipulation going on in the reality engine.?
Specialy when restoring fine detail content.?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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No, nothing visible with calibration tools measuring with or without Reality Creation
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: |
Do you have any clue at all what you talking about.
My God we found fanboy nr 1 hehe
This is like talking to a 4 year old kid and not the only one.
Grow up you're just write total bull****. |
Would you have preferred if I had said that Sony puts a little Elf in each of their VW1000's, and that elf has a magic wand that converts native 1920X1080P into native 4096×2160?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | No, nothing visible with calibration tools measuring with or without Reality Creation |
Sure not, there you measure a solid color window, but what happens with single pixel fine details.. do they boost colors to make it look sharper on those fine resolutions.?
How do the pixel phase pattern look like.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
What the Sony algorythms is trying to do and it does it very good is to try to be true to the source, I have seen demos about it with a Sony technitian and the info was classified and no pictures was allowed to be taken so I can not explain it. |
The ONLY way to be true to a source is to NOT touch it at all, or to duplicate it without affecting the actual nature of it.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely correct Mike !
Does not matter if CRT or another technology.
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
Last edited by ElTopo on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
What the Sony algorythms is trying to do and it does it very good is to try to be true to the source, I have seen demos about it with a Sony technitian and the info was classified and no pictures was allowed to be taken so I can not explain it. |
The ONLY way to be true to a source is to NOT touch it at all, or to duplicate it without affecting the actual nature of it.
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Read what I wrote.
It is trying to be true to the source! Since almost everyone is watching 1080p on the VW1000 we need to upscale and the Sony is doing a hell of a good job doing it and the VW1000 looks alot better than any CRT will ever look. I am sure you guys know that deep within your CRT hearts, but you will never admit it. 
I reccomend all you guys to see the VW1000 and see what I am talking about.
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gnnash
Joined: 10 Jul 2013
Posts: 216
Location: Lake Elmo, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
Do you have any clue at all what you talking about.
My God we found fanboy nr 1 hehe
This is like talking to a 4 year old kid and not the only one.
Grow up you're just write total bull****. |
Would you have preferred if I had said that Sony puts a little Elf in each of their VW1000's, and that elf has a magic wand that converts native 1920X1080P into native 4096×2160? |
How else do you think they can accomplish such a thing as "Reality Creation"?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | No, nothing visible with calibration tools measuring with or without Reality Creation |
Sure not, there you measure a solid color window, but what happens with single pixel fine details.. do they boost colors to make it look sharper on those fine resolutions.?
How do the pixel phase pattern look like.? |
Do you look at testpatterns or do you watch movies??
I said artifacts is visible on testpatterns, but not on movies and that is what is important to me!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
I reccomend all you guys to see the VW1000 and see what I am talking about. |
Well, we would, but since we're High End fanatics... once you mention signal tampering we go somewhere else. And that's why when it comes to Digital's the name that's mentioned around here is JVC.
You see they respect the signal and they do so by not manipulating it and passing it on as being something better after they send it through $50.00 worth of video processing. And then sell the product as being ahead of it's time.
And that's why their consumer projectors have a 1920X1080 panel in it, because their target customers are not the Boy's Scout's of America
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
I reccomend all you guys to see the VW1000 and see what I am talking about. |
Well, we would, but since we're High End fanatics... once you mention signal tampering we go somewhere else. And that's why when it comes to Digital's the name that's mentioned around here is JVC.
You see they respect the signal and they do so by not manipulating it and passing it on as being something better after they send it through $50.00 worth of video processing. And then sell the product as being ahead of it's time.
And that's why their consumer projectors have a 1920X1080 panel in it, because their target customers are not the Boy's Scout's of America |
What you are saying here is totally bull!
JVC has something the called E-Shift and they call it 4K, what this does is shift every pixel half a pixel to the side and half a pixel down and process it to look like 4K. What do you say about these algorythms??
You guys are so childish and say the VW1000 is not High End? Go and watch some VHS movies on your High End CRT´s! 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am finished with this now!
It is easyer to talk to my 3 year old son about picturequality and he understands picturequality better than you guys!
Thank you very much!
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
I reccomend all you guys to see the VW1000 and see what I am talking about. |
Well, we would, but since we're High End fanatics... once you mention signal tampering we go somewhere else. And that's why when it comes to Digital's the name that's mentioned around here is JVC.
You see they respect the signal and they do so by not manipulating it and passing it on as being something better after they send it through $50.00 worth of video processing. And then sell the product as being ahead of it's time.
And that's why their consumer projectors have a 1920X1080 panel in it, because their target customers are not the Boy's Scout's of America |
What you are saying here is totally bull!
JVC has something the called E-Shift and they call it 4K, what this does is shift every pixel half a pixel to the side and half a pixel down and process it to look like 4K. What do you say about these algorythms??
You guys are so childish and say the VW1000 is not High End? Go and watch some VHS movies on your High End CRT´s! |
They don't hide that. that feature makes sense for anyone wanting to play around with their projector, but at the end of the day, it still has the native 1080P panel. And you'll be able to go pixel for pixel.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| gnnash wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
Do you have any clue at all what you talking about.
My God we found fanboy nr 1 hehe
This is like talking to a 4 year old kid and not the only one.
Grow up you're just write total bull****. |
Would you have preferred if I had said that Sony puts a little Elf in each of their VW1000's, and that elf has a magic wand that converts native 1920X1080P into native 4096×2160? |
How else do you think they can accomplish such a thing as "Reality Creation"? |
I'd give a f*ck if there were 2 elfs as long as it looks great.
And are you really that stupid to think that bluray upscaled become native 4 K hahaha joker.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | I am finished with this now!
It is easyer to talk to my 3 year old son about picturequality and he understands picturequality better than you guys!
Thank you very much! |
Good, don't forget to take your tricycle with you when you leave.
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