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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | What kind of probe is that, the one you posted is so old I could not find any info one the internet, maby it is from before the internet? |
Yeah, it's a really odd ball and old device.
| Quote: | | What kind of colorimeter, spectroradiometer and signal generator do you use when you calibrate? |
Now this on is easy. The same one I also use in my work, and use with the one I have. Did I answer your question, or do I get a few points taking off..
Other than trolling and being a nuisance, what kind of work do you do?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: |
Given that you have no more comments about my assessment of other-than D65 optical light sources for calibration (or worse yet, no light source at all), I'll assume you agree with me about the worthlessness of such an exercise. |
I would not agree that it is worthless. I would agree that it's not an accurate means, but not worthless. I used the term previously of "get by" meaning it'll do until later.
This is when I've had to repair a display system, but had to use a get by method of calibration, because of the time allowed. The person who maintained to site would later come in, or come in on their next maintenance visit and do the full calibration. A setup of such could have up to 8 displays involved. At the point of repairing one of them, an calibration to only one of them would throw the rest of them off. And to get them all calibrated properly could take up to a week. So we all used to get by method, meaning an by eye calibration that used the other screens for an reference. |
Given that this discussion has centered on video fidelity, it's worthless for that purpose. Accurate calibration - i.e. not by memory/eye alone - is central to the whole debate of comparing displays in the first place (caveat: I still hold that screen shots are an almost worthless endeavor for that purpose, outside of a handful of very specific items). Despite it being completely irrelevant to this discussion, you continue to bring it up. It's proven to be nothing more than an obfuscatory subject. Let's move on to more relevant, productive topics.
Oddly you seem to keep missing or avoiding my requests for information about your projector calibration, and how recently your probe has been certified. Both are incredibly germane to this discussion, especially if you're going to continue to insist that anyone's shots prove anything. Which they don't, at all. |
Another +100! 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | What kind of probe is that, the one you posted is so old I could not find any info one the internet, maby it is from before the internet? |
Yeah, it's a really odd ball and old device.
| Quote: | | What kind of colorimeter, spectroradiometer and signal generator do you use when you calibrate? |
Now this on is easy. The same one I also use in my work, and use with the one I have. Did I answer your question, or do I get a few points taking off..
Other than trolling and being a nuisance, what kind of work do you do? |
Why dont you answer my question, HogPilot is also asking you, but you keep avoiding it.
Use your goldfish memory and you will remember what I work With as I have said it in here before.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
What idiot would buy a Klein K10A to set G2 and gain on a CRT projector.? |
Kurt, right here shows how ignorant you really are when it comes to understanding Colorimetry .
And you wonder why these guys keep at you, So now your calling Ken Whitcomb, Craig Rounds, Joe Kane, Charles Poynton, Chad, Ray and all the other 100's of Calibrators around the world idiots for using Spectroradiometers and high accuracy colorimeters on their customers CRT's over the years?
Just enjoy your Projectors and be at peace.
We all do not have built in calibration software and built in colorimeters in our heads as it seams you claim to have.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: |
Given that this discussion has centered on video fidelity, it's worthless for that purpose. Accurate calibration - i.e. not by memory/eye alone - is central to the whole debate of comparing displays in the first place (caveat: I still hold that screen shots are an almost worthless endeavor for that purpose, outside of a handful of very specific items). Despite it being completely irrelevant to this discussion, you continue to bring it up. It's proven to be nothing more than an obfuscatory subject. Let's move on to more relevant, productive topics |
Oh so you see it as me being the one to want to prove the video fidelity through the use of screenshots. I agree it would be worthless for that purpose and have been saying that over and over, yet it is I who copied a shot of mine from the Screenshots thread and posted it here for comparison..lol
I as you also mention, based my part on only one ("handful of very specific items") object for discussion, that was agreed on. Did I also comment on anything other than that?
And how many times would I have to say "you cannot use screenshots for comparison purposes" and "we are using cheap point and shoot cameras" and "screenshots cannot be used as a quantitative means of evaluation"
So having fun with the guys result in me saying something I've never said other than "black' "deep black "and "Flesh tones" you think maybe I've been doing them long enough to know about these three things?
And any discussions on calibration and equipment, I'll not get into and think it's an entirely useless discussion, when even you yourself talked about the merits of screenshots. Why even bother to bring up proper calibration on on the subject, when we're talking about the use of cheap point and shoot cameras. Plus, I made it clear, my PJ was NOT calibrated!!
It's not my field of expertise, and has never been. So I'll leave that one for your and Andy.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: |
Given that this discussion has centered on video fidelity, it's worthless for that purpose. Accurate calibration - i.e. not by memory/eye alone - is central to the whole debate of comparing displays in the first place (caveat: I still hold that screen shots are an almost worthless endeavor for that purpose, outside of a handful of very specific items). Despite it being completely irrelevant to this discussion, you continue to bring it up. It's proven to be nothing more than an obfuscatory subject. Let's move on to more relevant, productive topics |
Oh so you see it as me being the one to want to prove the video fidelity through the use of screenshots. I agree it would be worthless for that purpose and have been saying that over and over, yet it is I who copied a shot of mine from the Screenshots thread and posted it here for comparison..lol
I as you also mention, based my part on only one ("handful of very specific items") object for discussion, that was agreed on. Did I also comment on anything other than that?
And how many times would I have to say "you cannot use screenshots for comparison purposes" and "we are using cheap point and shoot cameras" and "screenshots cannot be used as a quantitative means of evaluation"
So having fun with the guys result in me saying something I've never said other than "black' "deep black "and "Flesh tones" you think maybe I've been doing them long enough to know about these three things?
And any discussions on calibration and equipment, I'll not get into and think it's an entirely useless discussion, when even you yourself talked about the merits of screenshots. Why even bother to bring up proper calibration on on the subject, when we're talking about the use of cheap point and shoot cameras. Plus, I made it clear, my PJ was NOT calibrated!!
It's not my field of expertise, and has never been. So I'll leave that one for your and Andy. |
You can not say anything about black, blacklevel(you said this earlier but the golfish memory is here again), deep black and fleshtones from screenshots even if you have decades of experience. Stridsvognen is actually taking this furter than you and is talking about color resolution++ 
I have never said I am an calibration expert.
And now the discussion is about calibration.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
You can not say anything about black, blacklevel(you said this earlier but the golfish memory is here again), deep black and fleshtones from screenshots even if you have decades of experience. Stridsvognen is actually taking this furter than you and is talking about color resolution++
I have never said I am an calibration expert.
And now the discussion is about calibration. |
Pull the lid back a little bit Andy. again and please write this down, stop using the word "black level" when you refer to me and this discussion...got that?
I do remember you saying you were not an expert calibrator, so I never saw you as one. But thought since you keep asking calibration questions and then Hog jumps in wanting to also talk about calibration, that maybe you and Hog could have a discussion shoot out on the subject..
Ya ain't gonna git me on that bandwagon.. 
I am not a calibrator, nor do I play on one the forum..
Last edited by mp20748 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: |
Given that you have no more comments about my assessment of other-than D65 optical light sources for calibration (or worse yet, no light source at all), I'll assume you agree with me about the worthlessness of such an exercise. |
I would not agree that it is worthless. I would agree that it's not an accurate means, but not worthless. I used the term previously of "get by" meaning it'll do until later.
This is when I've had to repair a display system, but had to use a get by method of calibration, because of the time allowed. The person who maintained to site would later come in, or come in on their next maintenance visit and do the full calibration. A setup of such could have up to 8 displays involved. At the point of repairing one of them, an calibration to only one of them would throw the rest of them off. And to get them all calibrated properly could take up to a week. So we all used to get by method, meaning an by eye calibration that used the other screens for an reference.
Things are a lot different in the commercial world, and it depends on the equipment and systems in use.
Again, the Optical Comparator is also used. I used a PC probe they provided. I also have one
Oh, I don't do HT calibrations. Only repairs and setups |
You calibrate your own HT by eye and I am sure you get very accurate results.
What you do in your work is totally irellevant in this discussion. |
You dont get the point do you.?
What good is your fancy meter when using a very very low resolution window when you measure, and then count on 2 cms devices in series to be able to remap/ calculate each pixel in real time without any error, or shortcuts.?
Your movie content is a very very complex pixel structure who is all over the map, and you claim that calibrating a low resolution window will tell you that what you see on screen is true to the source material.? (rec709)
The reason we dont need advanced 21 point grayscale and 25x25x25 3D lut and so on is the nature of the CRT, and is it possible that it might be a very nice not to depend on software and calculations when trying to resolve a HD source.?
Yeah we might not care if the delta E is not spot on, as its not as important as with digital, as we dont have those rapid shifts on the gamma curve as digitals can have.
Do your digital video chain have the power/ speed/ bandwidth to do all the remapping/ calculations right, and stay true to the low resolution calibration, when displaying movie content.? |
I get the point, but you dont have any calibration experience so everything you say here is worthless.
What you actually are saying is all calibration of a digital display with an internal or external CMS it totally worthless.
Why dont you send a mail to Spectracal a tell them all this , so they can stop this bull**** they are doing??
Maby you should also tell every manufacturer of digital projectors to stop and go over to CRT as it clearly the inferiour technology??
I have said it before and I will say it again, digitals are the future, CRTs are the past. And this is reality, face it!  |
You still dont get the point do you ?
Its not about best or worse, its about you thinking that you can call a guy with a 7000$ meter and all is perfect, rec 709.
This stuff is one huge pile of compromises no matter how you look at it, no matter if its CRT or digital, we are some that PREFER CRT for the qualities it have, and you are some who prefer digital for the qualities it have.
But to think a expensive meter, with a pro calibrator, and pile of CMS units will make it perfect is like say you will win formula 1 with a fiat 500 as you have a mechanic with a golden golden wrench with tighter tolerances to tighten the wheels.
Why do you say i have no calibration experience.?
And where did i say that external CMS is totally worthless.?
And where did i say that CRT is perfect, or the best.?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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You know guys. I am a CRT guy here but I have to agree with Andy, and Hog here in calibration.
Yes CRT needs the less help software wise( in Projector) and algorithm wise( in projector) to get to REC709. All it uses is voltages for the Gain and Drive of the cathode guns emitting the electron to the Phosphor "screen".
So where I am going with this is, IF and only IF the primaries of RGB are calibrated to perfection then all other
secondaries and other points in between will naturally fall into place due the nature of the phosphors
themselves. This is my understanding at least talking to professional calibrators.
So to get to that point of calibration a measurement device that can read and document the "ingredients" in the recipe
of each color is needed. This can not be done by eye, EVER.
Now with Digital's they use to need a lot of help to get there, the primaries are naturally over saturated. This creates a large Gammut than REC709. So software internal to the PJ is needed to tame the color output. Some companies can do this well while others had a need for external Processors to help. Also even the ones that got the primaries dead on the rest of the gammut was not inline naturally as it would happen in a CRT Projector.
Now Craig would be able to confirm this for me but I know he wont even touch this topic most likely because of who is in it.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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MR mp20748
I know that you have been doing this screenshot thing for many many years, and your pictures does not look much better after 9- 10 years of adjusting. And still trying to get the colors calibrated form your eyes. Or not calibrated at all.
Why not enjoy and watch movie on your bellowed CRT ?..
Andreas in 10 years time from now MP and stridsvognen and many others here will still do the same. I do not care.
And there always be Monkeys that makes this kind of stupid topic to the thread and will not prove anything, just throwing sh*t and try to advertise their product . Do it in a fair way. The only persons that will fall for this is FAN of technology,
I am not in any way trying to get you over to digital, and you have said that JVC sh*t you don't want. I respect that.
It would be fun if a pro calibrator can explain some things to some guys here, maybe enlighten things a bit.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
You still dont get the point do you ?
Its not about best or worse, its about you thinking that you can call a guy with a 7000$ meter and all is perfect, rec 709.
This stuff is one huge pile of compromises no matter how you look at it, no matter if its CRT or digital, we are some that PREFER CRT for the qualities it have, and you are some who prefer digital for the qualities it have.
But to think a expensive meter, with a pro calibrator, and pile of CMS units will make it perfect is like say you will win formula 1 with a fiat 500 as you have a mechanic with a golden golden wrench with tighter tolerances to tighten the wheels.
Why do you say i have no calibration experience.?
And where did i say that external CMS is totally worthless.?
And where did i say that CRT is perfect, or the best.? |
What you donīt understand is it is not enough to call a guy with a 7000$ colorimeter, he has to have a 10-20000$ spectroradiometer, a 2-5000$ signal generator and the correct software. Bu at least as important, experience.
You have said all digital CMS or videoprosessors degrade the image.
With all you claims do you not say CRT is the best?
And calibrating your own projectors with a cheap colorimeter does not give you experience. Are you ISF and THX certified?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You can not say anything about black, blacklevel(you said this earlier but the golfish memory is here again), deep black and fleshtones from screenshots even if you have decades of experience. Stridsvognen is actually taking this furter than you and is talking about color resolution++
I have never said I am an calibration expert.
And now the discussion is about calibration. |
Pull the lid back a little bit Andy. again and please write this down, stop using the word "black level" when you refer to me and this discussion...got that?
I do remember you saying you were not an expert calibrator, so I never saw you as one. But thought since you keep asking calibration questions and then Hog jumps in wanting to also talk about calibration, that maybe you and Hog could have a discussion shoot out on the subject..
Ya ain't gonna git me on that bandwagon..
I am not a calibrator, nor do I play on one the forum.. |
I donīt have to write anything down as I have excellent memory, and everything you say is already written down here.
So you say you have never said you can judge blacklevel from a screenshot? Must be the goldfish memory playing tricks on you, you said it not long ago and if I would I could find the proof in here.
But all of this is irellevant as you and stridsvognen are the only true CRT fanboys left in here and you are so narrow sighted it is scary.
I admit CRT has some positive points left, but the digitals is eating up almost all of them and soon the only thing left is motionresolution and I donīt think digitals will ever catch up 100% there in a long time, but some day they will.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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What I wish would come to market is a hybrid Laser/Phosphor front PJ.
Phosphor can be formulated to get correct colors with the right Laser value. Better than what the Electron beam could do and it would not need a focusing system in the laser path.
Here you'd get true black and great resolution.
Prysm makes Rear PJ monitors this way but size is limited. The entire screen is phosphor. They are for Video wall use.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | What I wish would come to market is a hybrid Laser/Phosphor front PJ.
Phosphor can be formulated to get correct colors with the right Laser value. Better than what the Electron beam could do and it would not need a focusing system in the laser path.
Here you'd get true black and great resolution.
Prysm makes Rear PJ monitors this way but size is limited. The entire screen is phosphor. They are for Video wall use.
Athanasios |
It is already here in the Epson 10000, but it is not getting only positive reviews. I will look at it as soon as I get the chance.
JVC also has a Laser/Phosphor hybrid, but for now it is only for the simulator market, but we can only guess what is coming this fall.
The negatives with these Laser/Phosphor hybrids is that one laser makes the blue and one laser is shining on phosphor and making the red and blue. What will happen when the phosphor start to wear and the laser start to wear, this is the big question to me.
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | What I wish would come to market is a hybrid Laser/Phosphor front PJ.
Phosphor can be formulated to get correct colors with the right Laser value. Better than what the Electron beam could do and it would not need a focusing system in the laser path.
Here you'd get true black and great resolution.
Prysm makes Rear PJ monitors this way but size is limited. The entire screen is phosphor. They are for Video wall use.
Athanasios |
+1
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
You still dont get the point do you ?
Its not about best or worse, its about you thinking that you can call a guy with a 7000$ meter and all is perfect, rec 709.
This stuff is one huge pile of compromises no matter how you look at it, no matter if its CRT or digital, we are some that PREFER CRT for the qualities it have, and you are some who prefer digital for the qualities it have.
But to think a expensive meter, with a pro calibrator, and pile of CMS units will make it perfect is like say you will win formula 1 with a fiat 500 as you have a mechanic with a golden golden wrench with tighter tolerances to tighten the wheels.
Why do you say i have no calibration experience.?
And where did i say that external CMS is totally worthless.?
And where did i say that CRT is perfect, or the best.? |
What you donīt understand is it is not enough to call a guy with a 7000$ colorimeter, he has to have a 10-20000$ spectroradiometer, a 2-5000$ signal generator and the correct software. Bu at least as important, experience.
You have said all digital CMS or videoprosessors degrade the image.
With all you claims do you not say CRT is the best?
And calibrating your own projectors with a cheap colorimeter does not give you experience. Are you ISF and THX certified? |
You still dont get the point do you.?
Will the most experienced mechanic with the best wrench/ tools ever made be able to make your Fiat 500 into a perfect car.?
What CMS units can you recommend that dont have any compromise or loss in the video path.?
And what meter or what automated calibration software is perfect/ will never need any firmware upgrade.?
Ill claim that no matter the tools or the amount of money or pro calibrators you bring in, you wont ever get anything perfect, its still a huge pile of compromises, no matter what type of projector we are playing with.
We like CRT for what it do well, you like the JVC for what it do well, and you have no clue, or cant imagine why we dont prefer the JVC.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="stridsvognen"][quote="Andreas21"] | stridsvognen wrote: |
You still dont get the point do you ?
We like CRT for what it do well, you like the JVC for what it do well, and you have no clue, or cant imagine why we dont prefer the JVC. |
Let me in on this I really want to understand, after pictures here and all the side by side tests I have done the last 6 years.
Let me in....Tell me....
Picture quality why CRT?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
You still dont get the point do you ?
Its not about best or worse, its about you thinking that you can call a guy with a 7000$ meter and all is perfect, rec 709.
This stuff is one huge pile of compromises no matter how you look at it, no matter if its CRT or digital, we are some that PREFER CRT for the qualities it have, and you are some who prefer digital for the qualities it have.
But to think a expensive meter, with a pro calibrator, and pile of CMS units will make it perfect is like say you will win formula 1 with a fiat 500 as you have a mechanic with a golden golden wrench with tighter tolerances to tighten the wheels.
Why do you say i have no calibration experience.?
And where did i say that external CMS is totally worthless.?
And where did i say that CRT is perfect, or the best.? |
What you donīt understand is it is not enough to call a guy with a 7000$ colorimeter, he has to have a 10-20000$ spectroradiometer, a 2-5000$ signal generator and the correct software. Bu at least as important, experience.
You have said all digital CMS or videoprosessors degrade the image.
With all you claims do you not say CRT is the best?
And calibrating your own projectors with a cheap colorimeter does not give you experience. Are you ISF and THX certified? |
You still dont get the point do you.?
Will the most experienced mechanic with the best wrench/ tools ever made be able to make your Fiat 500 into a perfect car.?
What CMS units can you recommend that dont have any compromise or loss in the video path.?
And what meter or what automated calibration software is perfect/ will never need any firmware upgrade.?
Ill claim that no matter the tools or the amount of money or pro calibrators you bring in, you wont ever get anything perfect, its still a huge pile of compromises, no matter what type of projector we are playing with.
We like CRT for what it do well, you like the JVC for what it do well, and you have no clue, or cant imagine why we dont prefer the JVC. |
It is time to stop now!
I hope someone with calibration experience can come in here and tell this imbecile what this is all about. I have clearly stated I dont have the experience to answer your stupid questions, so why do you keep asking them and ignore my questions at the same time??
If my X500 is a Fiat 500 what is your CRT then?? Oh yes I know, Fred Flintsones car!!
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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And stridsvognen I have already said there is a lot of compromises, and there is with all display and PJ technology. But as usual you donīt read my posts and just ask the same questions over and over even when I say I can not answer all of them.
You on the other hand just ignore my questions.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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