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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you. |
So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.
Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.? |
Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.
And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units to to the digital picture from a blu ray disk?? |
I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?
I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.
Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.? |
You sure act like you know it all.
To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.
Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.
And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p?? |
So how high resolution can the CMS unit process.? Meaning how many identical pixels have to be grouped for the CMS unit to be able to correct it to the right target.?
About the MTF, can you explain how the bandwidth and MTF is connected, how much bandwidth we need to address each of the 256 levels in the 8 bit right on each color on each pixel.?
And what would be the effect of a 80Mhz vs a 160Mhz bandwidth.?
Are you able to pass a perfect ramp true your video chain, with each step of the 8 bit resolution right, on all 3 colors.?
Try make a image of a section of your green ramp, as shown in my image.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you. |
So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.
Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.? |
Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.
And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units to to the digital picture from a blu ray disk?? |
I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?
I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.
Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.? |
You sure act like you know it all.
To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.
Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.
And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p?? |
So how high resolution can the CMS unit process.? Meaning how many identical pixels have to be grouped for the CMS unit to be able to correct it to the right target.?
About the MTF, can you explain how the bandwidth and MTF is connected, how much bandwidth we need to address each of the 256 levels in the 8 bit right on each color on each pixel.?
And what would be the effect of a 80Mhz vs a 160Mhz bandwidth.?
Are you able to pass a perfect ramp true your video chain, with each step of the 8 bit resolution right, on all 3 colors.?
Try make a image of a section of your green ramp, as shown in my image. |
Ok, this is going nowhere.
You dont answer my questions and just come up with new questions. I dont understand why I even bother.
Your bandwith mods will not affect MTF very much, and if it does I want proof of it. I have asked for pictures of a 1:1 vertical lines in 1080p, but you or MP will not provide them. And then I draw my own conclutions. And even better if you could actually measure the MTF, I am sure it will not pass 50%. And how much of 1080p resolution can your CRT show then?
Bandwith is not a problem on my digital so I dont bother worrying about it.
I will not post more screenshots.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you. |
So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.
Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.? |
Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.
And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units to to the digital picture from a blu ray disk?? |
I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?
I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.
Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.? |
You sure act like you know it all.
To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.
Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.
And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p?? |
So how high resolution can the CMS unit process.? Meaning how many identical pixels have to be grouped for the CMS unit to be able to correct it to the right target.?
About the MTF, can you explain how the bandwidth and MTF is connected, how much bandwidth we need to address each of the 256 levels in the 8 bit right on each color on each pixel.?
And what would be the effect of a 80Mhz vs a 160Mhz bandwidth.?
Are you able to pass a perfect ramp true your video chain, with each step of the 8 bit resolution right, on all 3 colors.?
Try make a image of a section of your green ramp, as shown in my image. |
Ok, this is going nowhere.
You dont answer my questions and just come up with new questions. I dont understand why I even bother.
Your bandwith mods will not affect MTF very much, and if it does I want proof of it. I have asked for pictures of a 1:1 vertical lines in 1080p, but you or MP will not provide them. And then I draw my own conclutions. And even better if you could actually measure the MTF, I am sure it will not pass 50%. And how much of 1080p resolution can your CRT show then?
Bandwith is not a problem on my digital so I dont bother worrying about it.
I will not post more screenshots. |
I think we have both told you that MTF on a CRT is very bad, we know it, we dont need to prove how bad it is.
We dont worry to much about the MTF as we dont find it to be the main factor to a good image quality.
Your the one claiming that bandwidth dont have much effect on MTF, so ill like you to explain the difference between a 80Mhz vs a 160mhz bandwidth displaying a 1080P source.
I think you should ask all the questions you like to know about CRT in the next post, and ill reply them all again if you like, and then ill ask all the questions about your digital video chain, and let you explain how that works.. ok.?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you. |
So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.
Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.? |
Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.
And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units to to the digital picture from a blu ray disk?? |
I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?
I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.
Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.? |
You sure act like you know it all.
To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.
Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.
And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p?? |
So how high resolution can the CMS unit process.? Meaning how many identical pixels have to be grouped for the CMS unit to be able to correct it to the right target.?
About the MTF, can you explain how the bandwidth and MTF is connected, how much bandwidth we need to address each of the 256 levels in the 8 bit right on each color on each pixel.?
And what would be the effect of a 80Mhz vs a 160Mhz bandwidth.?
Are you able to pass a perfect ramp true your video chain, with each step of the 8 bit resolution right, on all 3 colors.?
Try make a image of a section of your green ramp, as shown in my image. |
Ok, this is going nowhere.
You dont answer my questions and just come up with new questions. I dont understand why I even bother.
Your bandwith mods will not affect MTF very much, and if it does I want proof of it. I have asked for pictures of a 1:1 vertical lines in 1080p, but you or MP will not provide them. And then I draw my own conclutions. And even better if you could actually measure the MTF, I am sure it will not pass 50%. And how much of 1080p resolution can your CRT show then?
Bandwith is not a problem on my digital so I dont bother worrying about it.
I will not post more screenshots. |
I think we have both told you that MTF on a CRT is very bad, we know it, we dont need to prove how bad it is.
We dont worry to much about the MTF as we dont find it to be the main factor to a good image quality.
Your the one claiming that bandwidth dont have much effect on MTF, so ill like you to explain the difference between a 80Mhz vs a 160mhz bandwidth displaying a 1080P source.
I think you should ask all the questions you like to know about CRT in the next post, and ill reply them all again if you like, and then ill ask all the questions about your digital video chain, and let you explain how that works.. ok.? |
I say your bandwith mods will not affect MTF by much, but since you say it does please enlighten me and show me proof of it.
MTF is one of many important factors to show a good image quality, and MTF is just one of the many weak points of CRT.
I dont have knowledge about everything about my digital video chain.
But since you are the uber guru of CRT, I am sure you can explain everything I want to know. I have no spesific question, so just shoot.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you. |
So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.
Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.? |
Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.
And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units to to the digital picture from a blu ray disk?? |
I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?
I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.
Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.? |
You sure act like you know it all.
To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.
Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.
And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p?? |
So how high resolution can the CMS unit process.? Meaning how many identical pixels have to be grouped for the CMS unit to be able to correct it to the right target.?
About the MTF, can you explain how the bandwidth and MTF is connected, how much bandwidth we need to address each of the 256 levels in the 8 bit right on each color on each pixel.?
And what would be the effect of a 80Mhz vs a 160Mhz bandwidth.?
Are you able to pass a perfect ramp true your video chain, with each step of the 8 bit resolution right, on all 3 colors.?
Try make a image of a section of your green ramp, as shown in my image. |
Ok, this is going nowhere.
You dont answer my questions and just come up with new questions. I dont understand why I even bother.
Your bandwith mods will not affect MTF very much, and if it does I want proof of it. I have asked for pictures of a 1:1 vertical lines in 1080p, but you or MP will not provide them. And then I draw my own conclutions. And even better if you could actually measure the MTF, I am sure it will not pass 50%. And how much of 1080p resolution can your CRT show then?
Bandwith is not a problem on my digital so I dont bother worrying about it.
I will not post more screenshots. |
I think we have both told you that MTF on a CRT is very bad, we know it, we dont need to prove how bad it is.
We dont worry to much about the MTF as we dont find it to be the main factor to a good image quality.
Your the one claiming that bandwidth dont have much effect on MTF, so ill like you to explain the difference between a 80Mhz vs a 160mhz bandwidth displaying a 1080P source.
I think you should ask all the questions you like to know about CRT in the next post, and ill reply them all again if you like, and then ill ask all the questions about your digital video chain, and let you explain how that works.. ok.? |
I say your bandwith mods will not affect MTF by much, but since you say it does please enlighten me and show me proof of it.
MTF is one of many important factors to show a good image quality, and MTF is just one of the many weak points of CRT.
I dont have knowledge about everything about my digital video chain.
But since you are the uber guru of CRT, I am sure you can explain everything I want to know. I have no spesific question, so just shoot. |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
This was really funny to read.
So what you say this has not been important for you??
And you have not been shooting Down the JVC?? 
And since stidsvognen never answer me I ask you: What colorimeter, spectroradiometer and pattern generator do you use when you calibrate your Marquee?? |
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Without you it would not have been possible..
No I did not shoot down the JVC. Absolutely not. Remember I kelp saying both had plus and minus. Well, I used a minus of digital technology to get you two on board, and you agreed to go along. You trued to play the MTF and ansi, but was not able to get any traction out of it.
I then changed out the test board in my Marquee and switched in first an older Panasonic Blu Ray player (Baraka won't play on my main Blu Ray), to later switch back to my main board and then go with an 5 year old Sony BDP S470 Blu Ray (very cheap) player. Only touched up on the convergence on the projector. I had the same Sony Blu ray hooked up when William came by yesterday. So I did move some things around, but not really for the better.
If I really wanted to be serious, I would have calibrated my projector, and especially dialed in the focus, but chose to leave things for the most part as-is.
And if you remember, I kelp saying I can't say anything against the X500, because I have no experience with it. And kelp asking you two why do you keep referring to CRT technology based on a few Barco's. So instead I kept referring to Digitals (not JVC) in my comments.
My Marquee gets very bright, but for the shots I have to lower the contrast (gain). And the great calibrator Craig rounds said it was the brightest Marquee he had ever seen, to even being possible the best looking CRT projector he's ever seen, and he's seen them all. But, the camera does it no justice, and I have been saying that over and over and over and over. And that's why I kelp telling you it's plain stupid to do a comparison, and both of you agreed, but then started to suffer with the Flip Flop Syndrome.
You wanted to talk about MTF and Ansi, a really worthless discussion, and Diddern let me talk him into posting a few shots.. This is where the fun really begain, because I posted some really weak shots in another thread using a really low quality camera and player. You guys jumped on it - brilliant. So I caught you on the right side of your Flip..Lol
It's really stupid man, think about what we've been trying to tell you. Your High End Digital against my High End CRT, with us both using cheap (at least mine is) point and shoot cameras to capture the image. Really think about how dumb that sounds. And for as much as I post screenshots, look back and see how many times I've posted a shot that someone else has posted with mine for comparison. Other than Didderns shot, it has been a many year since I may have done that. I figured it out a long time ago how stupid it really is. And that's why I simple post shots and not make claims one way or the other about mine being better.
So when are you guys going to go back to pixel land..
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.? |
What are you saying here?
When we calibrate we use 1080p signal generators and the hanky panky expensive Klein (witch is the best colorimeter on the market) measures from a 1080p source. And I use pro calibrators to calibrate my displays as one of the most important thing in calibration toghether with good equipment, is experience. I would never buy the equpment my pro calibrators use just to calibrate my own equipment, but I would not use poor equipment to calibrate it myself either.
You can also get 4K signal generator to calibrate 4K displays.
I dont have to know every detail about my digital to know this. 
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
Last edited by Andreas21 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
This was really funny to read.
So what you say this has not been important for you??
And you have not been shooting Down the JVC??
And since stidsvognen never answer me I ask you: What colorimeter, spectroradiometer and pattern generator do you use when you calibrate your Marquee?? |
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Without you it would not have been possible..
No I did not shoot down the JVC. Absolutely not. Remember I kelp saying both had plus and minus. Well, I used a minus of digital technology to get you two on board, and you agreed to go along. You trued to play the MTF and ansi, but was not able to get any traction out of it.
I then changed out the test board in my Marquee and switched in first an older Panasonic Blu Ray player (Baraka won't play on my main Blu Ray), to later switch back to my main board and then go with an 5 year old Sony BDP S470 Blu Ray (very cheap) player. Only touched up on the convergence on the projector. I had the same Sony Blu ray hooked up when William came by yesterday. So I did move some things around, but not really for the better.
If I really wanted to be serious, I would have calibrated my projector, and especially dialed in the focus, but chose to leave things for the most part as-is.
And if you remember, I kelp saying I can't say anything against the X500, because I have no experience with it. And kelp asking you two why do you keep referring to CRT technology based on a few Barco's. So instead I kept referring to Digitals (not JVC) in my comments.
My Marquee gets very bright, but for the shots I have to lower the contrast (gain). And the great calibrator Craig rounds said it was the brightest Marquee he had ever seen, to even being possible the best looking CRT projector he's ever seen, and he's seen them all. But, the camera does it no justice, and I have been saying that over and over and over and over. And that's why I kelp telling you it's plain stupid to do a comparison, and both of you agreed, but then started to suffer with the Flip Flop Syndrome.
You wanted to talk about MTF and Ansi, a really worthless discussion, and Diddern let me talk him into posting a few shots.. This is where the fun really begain, because I posted some really weak shots in another thread using a really low quality camera and player. You guys jumped on it - brilliant. So I caught you on the right side of your Flip..Lol
It's really stupid man, think about what we've been trying to tell you. Your High End Digital against my High End CRT, with us both using cheap (at least mine is) point and shoot cameras to capture the image. Really think about how dumb that sounds. And for as much as I post screenshots, look back and see how many times I've posted a shot that someone else has posted with mine for comparison. Other than Didderns shot, it has been a many year since I may have done that. I figured it out a long time ago how stupid it really is. And that's why I simple post shots and not make claims one way or the other about mine being better.
So when are you guys going to go back to pixel land.. |
Blah, blah, blah...
Iam the one who have said how stupid and worthless screenshots are, you have said they are valuable and you can draw conclutions from them.
I am not the one posting screenshot after screenshot in here and at AVSForum. And if you post really bad screenshots why do everybody in here look up to your screenshots and really think your CRT to be the eight wonder of the world.
I could use my cheap point and shoot camera and the results would be the same or maby better because of the lower resolution so that not so much compression would have to be done before posting it here.
And when you say it is superbright: How many lux do you measure at your screen when displaying a full screen 100IRE pattern, and what is your screensize?
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
I say your bandwith mods will not affect MTF by much |
Here we go again..
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
Blah, blah, blah...
Iam the one who have said how stupid and worthless screenshots are, you have said they are valuable and you can draw conclutions from them.
I am not the one posting screenshot after screenshot in here and at AVSForum. And if you post really bad screenshots why do everybody in here look up to your screenshots and really think your CRT to be the eight wonder of the world.
I could use my cheap point and shoot camera and the results would be the same or maby better because of the lower resolution so that not so much compression would have to be done before posting it here.
And when you say it is superbright: How many lux do you measure at your screen when displaying a full screen 100IRE pattern, and what is your screensize? |
My dear Andy. You flap on so much you keep forgetting your original position on things.
My point was that I don't use them for competition or to compare to someone else shots (like what you and Diddern do). I think is just plain dumb to even think the comparison could yield valid results (waste of time). sort of an entertaining (something to do) but not a competing mine is better than yours thing.
Last edited by mp20748 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.? |
What are you saying here?
When we calibrate we use 1080p signal generators and the hanky panky expensive Klein (witch is the best colorimeter on the market) measures from a 1080p source. And I use pro calibrators to calibrate my displays as one of the most important thing in calibration toghether with good equipment, is experience. I would never buy the equpment my pro calibrators use just to calibrate my own equipment, but I would not use poor equipment to calibrate it myself either.
You can also get 4K signal generator to calibrate 4K displays.
I dont have to know every detail about my digital to know this. |
Then my question about the cms device pop up again.
Can it remap/ correct each pixel real time in full 1080P? and when using a generator, how do you know that its the same as your source.?
You have at least 3 processors in your video chain, 2 of them have cms features, who corrects, remaps the information entering.
When you calibrate you only use a low resolution window on your screen, how do you know what these processors and cms devices do to your high resolution part of the image ?
Can you measure 1 pixel on your screen with mixed content around it, and confirm its right on target/ true to the source.?
And do you use DI and e shift when running your JVC.?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
Blah, blah, blah...
Iam the one who have said how stupid and worthless screenshots are, you have said they are valuable and you can draw conclutions from them.
I am not the one posting screenshot after screenshot in here and at AVSForum. And if you post really bad screenshots why do everybody in here look up to your screenshots and really think your CRT to be the eight wonder of the world.
I could use my cheap point and shoot camera and the results would be the same or maby better because of the lower resolution so that not so much compression would have to be done before posting it here.
And when you say it is superbright: How many lux do you measure at your screen when displaying a full screen 100IRE pattern, and what is your screensize? |
My dear Andy. You flap on such much you keep forgetting your original position on things.
My point was that I don't use them for competition or to compare to someone else shots (like what you and Diddern do). I think is just plain dumb to even think the comparison could yield valid results (waste of time). sort of an entertaining (something to do) but not a competing mine is better than yours thing. |
I tink you need to think and you keep forgetting what you are posting in here. I have excellent memory.
Have I ever posted a screenshot and asked you to post the same for comparison? No! Have you? Yes many times, and you have clearly stated that screenshots can be used to compare black, blacklevel, deep black, colors, fleshtones+++ 
And regarding MTF and bandwith, you have not posted any proof og how much it improoves on MTF, and until you do I draw my own conclutions.
Do you also calibrate your CRT by eye??
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.? |
What are you saying here?
When we calibrate we use 1080p signal generators and the hanky panky expensive Klein (witch is the best colorimeter on the market) measures from a 1080p source. And I use pro calibrators to calibrate my displays as one of the most important thing in calibration toghether with good equipment, is experience. I would never buy the equpment my pro calibrators use just to calibrate my own equipment, but I would not use poor equipment to calibrate it myself either.
You can also get 4K signal generator to calibrate 4K displays.
I dont have to know every detail about my digital to know this. |
Then my question about the cms device pop up again.
Can it remap/ correct each pixel real time in full 1080P? and when using a generator, how do you know that its the same as your source.?
You have at least 3 processors in your video chain, 2 of them have cms features, who corrects, remaps the information entering.
When you calibrate you only use a low resolution window on your screen, how do you know what these processors and cms devices do to your high resolution part of the image ?
Can you measure 1 pixel on your screen with mixed content around it, and confirm its right on target/ true to the source.?
And do you use DI and e shift when running your JVC.? |
Since you are the calibration expert in here you tell me.
And regarding your question of measuring 1 pixel, what do you think?
And when you calibrate your CRT by eye, how do you confirm it to be true to the source?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
I tink you need to think and you keep forgetting what you are posting in here. I have excellent memory.
Have I ever posted a screenshot and asked you to post the same for comparison? No! Have you? Yes many times, and you have clearly stated that screenshots can be used to compare black, blacklevel, deep black, colors, fleshtones+++
And regarding MTF and bandwith, you have not posted any proof og how much it improoves on MTF, and until you do I draw my own conclutions.
Do you also calibrate your CRT by eye?? |
Blah blah blah blah...
Oh, I'm the one wanting to use the screenshots. Only to trick Diddern..Lol
Black level - NO
The ability to show black and deep black - yes. Write that down for me Andy, you keep loosing where the period was in a discussion.
Flesh tones - yes. look at Diddern's shot. Chris Tucker looks like a mannequin
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.? |
What are you saying here?
When we calibrate we use 1080p signal generators and the hanky panky expensive Klein (witch is the best colorimeter on the market) measures from a 1080p source. And I use pro calibrators to calibrate my displays as one of the most important thing in calibration toghether with good equipment, is experience. I would never buy the equpment my pro calibrators use just to calibrate my own equipment, but I would not use poor equipment to calibrate it myself either.
You can also get 4K signal generator to calibrate 4K displays.
I dont have to know every detail about my digital to know this. |
Then my question about the cms device pop up again.
Can it remap/ correct each pixel real time in full 1080P? and when using a generator, how do you know that its the same as your source.?
You have at least 3 processors in your video chain, 2 of them have cms features, who corrects, remaps the information entering.
When you calibrate you only use a low resolution window on your screen, how do you know what these processors and cms devices do to your high resolution part of the image ?
Can you measure 1 pixel on your screen with mixed content around it, and confirm its right on target/ true to the source.?
And do you use DI and e shift when running your JVC.? |
Since you are the calibration expert in here you tell me.
And regarding your question of measuring 1 pixel, what do you think?
And when you calibrate your CRT by eye, how do you confirm it to be true to the source? |
This is not about the CRT, none of us claimed a perfect rec 709.
This is refering back to the coment about the shin texture and colors looking 1 color alike and muted compared to the CRT projector, stuff we notice when comparing a good CRT against new digital projectors.
That resolution must get lost somewhere, it has nothing to do with MTF ansi as we know thats very bad on the CRT compared to the digital, but why do the digitals always look like the colors are muted/ flat, like a low bandwidth CRT projector.
When you calibrate, i guess your using a low resolution window, maybe a 3-10P resolution, how do you translate that to a 1080P resolution, and confirm it not to get messed up in the processing.?
Ill guess the processor says.. woohoo,, the idiot is feeding me just 1 color, very low resolution,, thats easy, hope he dont check me out with movie content.
What good is a 7000$ meter if you cant measure what goes on with high resolution content.?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
I tink you need to think and you keep forgetting what you are posting in here. I have excellent memory.
Have I ever posted a screenshot and asked you to post the same for comparison? No! Have you? Yes many times, and you have clearly stated that screenshots can be used to compare black, blacklevel, deep black, colors, fleshtones+++
And regarding MTF and bandwith, you have not posted any proof og how much it improoves on MTF, and until you do I draw my own conclutions.
Do you also calibrate your CRT by eye?? |
Blah blah blah blah...
Oh, I'm the one wanting to use the screenshots. Only to trick Diddern..Lol
Black level - NO
The ability to show black and deep black - yes. Write that down for me Andy, you keep loosing where the period was in a discussion.
Flesh tones - yes. look at Diddern's shot. Chris Tucker looks like a mannequin |
Everything you say her is pure and utter bull, except Black Level-NO.
Look at your screeshots of Chris Tucker, you can not draw any conclutions about fleshtones from them. The only conclution you can draw from them is that they look like sh*t.
You have been using screenshots in here for many years and earlier you stated that screenshot can be used for comparison of projectors. I have always said they are wothless, but if they are taken in the same room, With the same screen, same camera, same settings they can have some value. The only way to really test two different projectors is to test them side by side.
And I ask you again: do you also calibrate your CRT by eye?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | Do you also calibrate your CRT by eye?? |
I also calibrate by eye.
Write this down:
When you use the word Calibrate, you are assuming that it means to properly calibrate a display system using a meter of such. But in the industry I'm in, it means nothing.
The proper use of the word calibrate would be immediately followed by means, type and equipment used.
So If a did a calibration, it would read more like:
Calibration performed on (display device - make model serial) - using (any equipment used /make model calibration date) - also followed by results (previous numbers and end result numbers) - person - date of calibration
And to also enlighten you on something. Yes, an eyeball calibration is a valid calibration. It would have to be entered as such (calibrated by eye).
My reference for the above is also what has been established by NIST. A Federal Government Agency that sets and documents US Standards. And most of the industry follows those standards.
So on the eyeball thing, believe it or not, the brain is the calibrator. And that is why most expert calibrators ALSO use an Optical Comparator
I hope you wrote that down, because you really should never use the word calibration without attaching the means and method
Last edited by mp20748 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
So what you have been stating about your X500 and its perfect rec 709 is just guessing, as you have no clue if its just a illusion your given when measuring low resolution windows.?
Or will you be able to target a single pixel on your screen and confirm it to be calculated/ corrected right on a complex movie content while playing with the super duper hanky panky expensive Klein.? |
What are you saying here?
When we calibrate we use 1080p signal generators and the hanky panky expensive Klein (witch is the best colorimeter on the market) measures from a 1080p source. And I use pro calibrators to calibrate my displays as one of the most important thing in calibration toghether with good equipment, is experience. I would never buy the equpment my pro calibrators use just to calibrate my own equipment, but I would not use poor equipment to calibrate it myself either.
You can also get 4K signal generator to calibrate 4K displays.
I dont have to know every detail about my digital to know this. |
Then my question about the cms device pop up again.
Can it remap/ correct each pixel real time in full 1080P? and when using a generator, how do you know that its the same as your source.?
You have at least 3 processors in your video chain, 2 of them have cms features, who corrects, remaps the information entering.
When you calibrate you only use a low resolution window on your screen, how do you know what these processors and cms devices do to your high resolution part of the image ?
Can you measure 1 pixel on your screen with mixed content around it, and confirm its right on target/ true to the source.?
And do you use DI and e shift when running your JVC.? |
Since you are the calibration expert in here you tell me.
And regarding your question of measuring 1 pixel, what do you think?
And when you calibrate your CRT by eye, how do you confirm it to be true to the source? |
This is not about the CRT, none of us claimed a perfect rec 709.
This is refering back to the coment about the shin texture and colors looking 1 color alike and muted compared to the CRT projector, stuff we notice when comparing a good CRT against new digital projectors.
That resolution must get lost somewhere, it has nothing to do with MTF ansi as we know thats very bad on the CRT compared to the digital, but why do the digitals always look like the colors are muted/ flat, like a low bandwidth CRT projector.
When you calibrate, i guess your using a low resolution window, maybe a 3-10P resolution, how do you translate that to a 1080P resolution, and confirm it not to get messed up in the processing.?
Ill guess the processor says.. woohoo,, the idiot is feeding me just 1 color, very low resolution,, thats easy, hope he dont check me out with movie content.
What good is a 7000$ meter if you cant measure what goes on with high resolution content.? |
Your problem when not calibrating your CRT to bt709 is that it does not show bt709, if you did it would look close to the digital. The X500 does not have muted colors it is the CRT that is not showing bt709 correctly.
If you are so obsessed with accuracy why do you calibrate your CRT by eye?
And I still say you have no idea what color resolution is.
And how do you measure your CRT with 1080p resolution when it is not capable of showing it correctly?
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http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | Do you also calibrate your CRT by eye?? |
I also calibrate by eye.
Write this down:
When you use the word Calibrate, you are assuming that it means to properly calibrate a display system using a meter of such. But in the industry I'm in, it means nothing.
The proper use of the word calibrate would be immediately followed by means, type and equipment used.
So If a did a calibration, it would read more like:
Calibration performed on (display device - make model serial) - using (any equipment used /make model calibration date) - also followed by results (previous numbers and end result numbers) - person - date of calibration
And to also enlighten you on something. Yes, an eyeball calibration is a valid calibration. It would have to be entered as such (calibrated by eye).
My reference for the above is also what has been established by NIST. A Federal Government Agency that sets and documents US Standards. And most of the industry follows those standards.
So on the eyeball thing, believe it or not, the brain is the calibrator. And that is why most expert calibrators ALSO use an Optical Comparator
I hope you wrote that down, because you really should never use the word calibration without attaching the means and method |
A calibration by eye is only a valid calibration if an approved D65 light source and optical comparator are used. Otherwise, at best, you're going by memory which is an absolutely horrible reference; this has been thoroughly tested, proven, and documented.
Which approved D65 light source and comparators do you use for your by-eye calibration, and what were the results? Specifically dE at the primaries and secondaries at 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% luminance, and your 10% - 100% (10% increments) greyscale dE's and point gamma values?
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
Last edited by HogPilot on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | Look at your screeshots of Chris Tucker, you can not draw any conclutions about fleshtones from them |
Sure you can. It's when something looks natural and not like Didderns..
| Quote: | | nd I ask you again: do you also calibrate your CRT by eye? |
Absolutely!
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