Eisemann-Theater Simulation Grade Tubes better than VW1000ES

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Eisemann-Theater Simulation Grade Tubes better than VW1000ES
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Diddern

Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject:

tanwn1 wrote:

Just by looking at the screenshots posted here, it's is indeed very lacking compared to the JVC and not even close to my Barco cinemax

Finally someone who tells what they see. Thanks!

The test I had with a cine9 and a Sony VW95, the Cine9 had a very nice picture and were used for gaming, but because of MTF, ansicontrast and a lot more. All this factors the Cine9 lost debt, sharpness, HD feeling, punch, clearness, dynamic compared. Easy to see...
The Sony vw95 was much better in bright to dark scenes. In super dark scenes the Cine9 was better to me because black got grey. This because I have had to many CRTs and got use to the total black.
And the Sony VW95 did not shut down to Zero IRE. The Sony VW1000 and VW1100 does this because of the iris.

So total picture the Sony VW95 won with high margin, and extreme dark scenes the Cine9. Then films like Alien VS predator and the end chapter in Zero Dark Thirty.
The punch was also much better on the Sony VW95, not strange the Cine9 about 250-300 Lumens and the Sony VW95 1500 lumen. To get 10FL on the Cine9 much smaller screen.
I prefer 13-16FL but that is me and I prefer 110-130 inch screen.

I also feel that a Cine9 is the best CRT (I HAVE SEEN IN MY LIFE), but I cant tell 100% before I see them side by side and calibrated up to the HDTV standard, not the eye standard that many here think is the best its NOT .

And now I talk about a JVC X500, that has a native ON OFF contrast measured in my cinema without iris full punch with over 38000:1 with 13FL in low and 36000:1 with high lamp and about 17FL both calibrated.

With Iris auto2 I guess 350000-400000:1 And if adjusted correct you get 99%-100% shutdown to black and sometimes looks like 101% you need to sit and focus on the screen a loooong time before you see some stray light if you're lucky. And a black level guarantied better than any CRT I have seen, also shadow detail and so on. Then if you adjust the CRT correct to video level 16-235 or some higher. Normally I like it to clip in white around 241. But all CRTs I have seen is adjusted with black crush to get the total shutdown 100%
You can easy see that the JVC is MUCH better than the photos here NO problem at all, and I think that a correct adjusted CRT can also be better than this CRT shots. And the question does that matter, NO. The only thing that matter is what you like. But do not say that its better than a JVC or Sony High end PJ in 2015 because its far from.

AND Topics like Barco better than a VW1000 NO!!! CRT still king with HD and so on!!!! NO

But a CRT 808, 909, Cine9, marquee and so on, will beat most of the normal digitals on just one thing BLACK down to 0 IRE.
But not the case with JVC X500 if calibrated and adjusted right.

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:58 pm Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

You use a CMS to set the primary and secondary colors correct, and to really get things correct you use a 3D LUT. I have 4013 points corrected on my JVC. And then we have a 21 point grayscale/gamma correction. My JVC was very good out of the box and needed very little correction, but as I am a perfectionist we did the complete calibration with the eeColor.

I know how the CMS systems work.

Is your CMS processor able to remap and correct each pixel in a complex image real time without any compromise.?

And how many processors do you have in your signal chain.? Name and location please.?

No, I dont think you know that.

Why do you ask. The eeColor is true 10bit.

Lets finish this first.

A few posts back you had no external CMS.. What is that eeColor ?

I was not asking about bit, i was asking do your CMS processors have the power to remap/ correct each pixel real time with no compromise or loss.?

I also asked you a question several times and you keep ignoring it.

I said I had no external videoprosessor. The eeColor is not a videoprosessor. And I have told you about my setup before and mentioned the eeColor. If you don´t know what a eeColor is use google.

The eeColor can.
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:59 pm Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

jbmeyer13 wrote:

CRT was originally designed for use with standard def SMPTE.

This is a very important point. Wink

Yeah.. How is it the SMPTE compared to REC 709.?

It is a smaller colorspace. Wink

That is why you need filters and stuff to be able to show rec 709 in a correct way. Cool

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Diddern

Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:00 pm Post subject:

And here a Clair proof without a side by side test and would be even bigger difference in real. [/

stridsvognen
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:07 pm Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

No, I dont think you know that.

Why do you ask. The eeColor is true 10bit.

Ok so lets call that eeColor a black box who have to remap/ correct each pixel to a new address in real time, as the processor/ black box in the JVC cant do it right.

Do the first black box have the power to remap/ correct each pixel in real time with no compromise or loss ?

AFryia

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 965
Location: S.E. Michigan VPH-G70Q

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:16 pm Post subject:

[quote="Diddern"] Curious, why is one image 5760 pixels wide and the comparison one only 722? Are they both real screen shots? _________________ My Volt Blog

mp20748

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:14 am Post subject:

AFryia wrote:

Curious, why is one image 5760 pixels wide and the comparison one only 722?

Are they both real screen shots?

I think you might be on to something here, but for sure the larger one (mine) in these shots is for sure a screen capture.

I've also wondered about this myself... could you present any possibilities as to why the shots would be so similar in measurement and be so far away in pixel count?

Last edited by mp20748 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total

Nashou66

Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:37 am Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

No, I dont think you know that.

Why do you ask. The eeColor is true 10bit.

I have told you my signal chain before and will not do it again.

And why do you not answer my question? What colorimeter, spectroradiometer and signal generator do you use when you calibrate your Marquee?

I too am a Marquee owner and have asked Kurt these same questions. I do not think he ever responded.

Listen, the Marquee is a great CRT PJ with the highest BW of them all , BUT, its focusing system sucks. The Sony G90 and Barco 909 or Cine9 are sharper but lack the BW the Marquee has. This is why Marquee owners use Sony 1292 focus coils to get better control of the electron beam. Also its manual CPC magnetics set up is never done properly by many here. Even I have not mastered it. In the Sony and Barco I believe it is all done electronically, definitely on the G90.

Now my CRT set up is a blend and I use half the available BW to get my 1080p@72, and it still is not as sharp as that JVC x700 tanwn1 showed pics of.

Now Digitals all need CMS and none can get close to REC 709 with out it.

CRT can get close with out any CMS but needs Colored C elements or a specially made Phosphor( which can be done).

The G2 and drive settings are what is used as you already know. and a expert calibrator can get a flat Greyscale
with no external CMS box on CRT. Digitals now have built in CMS for this and other ways to get a good greyscale and gammut.

So Both need help, even the way our eyes see colors is different from human to human.

So all this is for naught , Enjoy what you like, Tanwn1 has chossen both technologies and
I feel that is what I may do as well soon.

So that is my take on this never ending debate.

Those who are arguing the JVC picture sucks really need to let go of emotion and use rational.

Same goes for those who say the CRT picture sucks.

Both have there places in this hobby for what ever reason the hobbyist sees .

Later guys.........

Athanasios
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mp20748

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:40 am Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:

Now my CRT set up is a blend and I use half the available BW to get my 1080p@72, and it still is not as sharp as that JVC x700 tanwn1 showed pics of.
Athanasios

Nothing in all that happened here was about sharpness. In fact, I haven't touched the focus on my Marquee in weeks. I figured since sharpness was more played down than any other image quality, why bother dealing with it. We were always clear on that, with each posting of images having a specific goal.

Plus, my camera does not do well capturing how well my projector is setup. So I don't think it makes a lot of sense to say how sharp a projector is from screenshots. The ability of the screenshot to show sharpness depends mianly on the camera.

Also, and for anyone who has seen my setup in action, they were blown away by the level of detail it displays. But that's not something that can be seen in the screenshots. But in person, it's a sight to see, much as what William saw when he was here earlier yesterday.

How good the JVC is or how bad the CRT is, or vice versa is not important. What has been going on here is just us having fun with the two guys from Norway. That should have been clear as many times as we have been saying "we really don't care"

And how much I've been saying that both have pluses and minuses. And it's really kind of dumb to try and prove which one is better. And that is why I did not bother to tweak, focus or calibrate my projector. It was never that serious to me.

So I hope this helps in a better understanding on what was really going on. The key was that neither Kurt or I agreed to have a visit to have a side by side comparison. That would have been really stupid to do, because what would have been accomplished or for what purpose?

Again, these competitions are really stupid. They kept asking for it, and we thought we would go along for the ride. However it turned out is irrelevant, because it was really a waste of time.

My Marquee is exceptionally sharp, and dialing in the focus is something I'm very good at. And for anyone that has seen it in action, it's not only a well focus foreground image, it produces an equally focus and detailed image even in the backgrounds. So it looks more like a digital than a CRT. JVC projectors are what I have been suggesting to my customers to upgrade to, so I can't be recommending them and shooting them down at the same time..

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:25 am Post subject:

mp20748 wrote:

Nashou66 wrote:

Now my CRT set up is a blend and I use half the available BW to get my 1080p@72, and it still is not as sharp as that JVC x700 tanwn1 showed pics of.
Athanasios

This was really funny to read.

So what you say this has not been important for you??

And you have not been shooting Down the JVC?? Rolling Eyes

And since stidsvognen never answer me I ask you: What colorimeter, spectroradiometer and pattern generator do you use when you calibrate your Marquee??
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stridsvognen
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:01 am Post subject:

Andreas. what has a pattern generator and the meter to do with anything, we have so few adjustments that we can do a very close by eye setup who looks 10 times better than any color out of any digital. The only right generator to use is the source. And if i in rare cases want to confirm that my grayscale tracks decent, maybe play with blue focus, ill use my X-Rite i1Display Pro. The main calibration instrument is my eyes, and if any doubt, specially at very low level i never trust any meter. Can your eeColor remap/ correct each pixel to a new address in real time, that the processor in the JVC cant do right. Do the eeColor box have the power to remap/ correct each pixel in real time with no compromise or loss ?

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:34 am Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas. what has a pattern generator and the meter to do with anything, we have so few adjustments that we can do a very close by eye setup who looks 10 times better than any color out of any digital.

The only right generator to use is the source. And if i in rare cases want to confirm that my grayscale tracks decent, maybe play with blue focus, ill use my X-Rite i1Display Pro. The main calibration instrument is my eyes, and if any doubt, specially at very low level i never trust any meter.

Can your eeColor remap/ correct each pixel to a new address in real time, that the processor in the JVC cant do right.

Do the eeColor box have the power to remap/ correct each pixel in real time with no compromise or loss ?

So you think you can calibrate color, grayscale and gamma by eye? You make me laugh! Laughing

If MP has the same meaning no wonder his CRT looks like sh*t compared to many of the others in here.

If you have the right equipment it can measure lower than what is needed. Have you ever heard of the Klein K10A?
Your meter is not good enough in the lower end and your eyes are certainly not anywhere in the scale if you want accuracy. How often do you get your meter adjusted and calibrated? And what spectroradiometer do you use for profiling, if you dont use one how do you know if your meter does the job right.

You are obviosly not very concerned about accuracy, if you think eye calibrated color looks better than a real calibration that is ok with me, but it is not accurate. I can also set the colors in my JVC like I want and make it look like a TV displayed in a shop with waay to much color, but I like to watch blu rays as accurate as possible.

It is ok with me if you like your eye calibrated CRT, but dont come here and talk about colors and accurate fleshtones as it is impossible to do by eye.

And what is the purpose og your questions, as long as my sh*tty X500 internal prosessor is making all these compromises it is irellevant what the eeColor can do.
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Diddern

Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:37 am Post subject:

MP and AFRYA I was expecting this from someone so I took picture of the setup, and how its done. Just to explain how to get a fantastic screenshot taken. EASY 1. Use a descent PJ (here the most important thin) 2. Set up camera, fix the screen image to fit in your cam passion so its straight all sides then after your room. Takes some time. I needed to make the picture some smaller on my screen because I have not more than 4 meter from PJ. You see that form picture that I zoomed out a bit to make it fit. 3. Make shore your PJ s calibrated up to the HD TV standard and camera white level in 0, use low iso. 4. find the right adjustment time for shutter, take pictures until you are happy with the result. Scaling done in adobe Photoshop CC. or other program

stridsvognen
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:38 am Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

So you think you can calibrate color, grayscale and gamma by eye? You make me laugh! Laughing

Why is it it not relevant to know if the eeColor can remap/ correct each pixel real time.?

Can the JVC processor map each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.?

What idiot would buy a Klein K10A to set G2 and gain on a CRT projector.?

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:49 am Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

So you think you can calibrate color, grayscale and gamma by eye? You make me laugh! Laughing

You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you.
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stridsvognen
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:52 am Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:

You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you.

So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.

Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.?

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:58 am Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you.

So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.

Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.?

Why do you want me to answer a question you already have the aswer to? According to you no such thing exsist and all digital units destroy the picture.

And then I want you to tell me the technical background of all this sh*t digital units do to the digital picture from a blu ray disk??
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

Diddern

Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:58 am Post subject:

He is finished with you, I hope. You say so many stupid things.

stridsvognen
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:08 am Post subject:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you.

So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.

Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.?

I dont know how the processor in the JVC or in your eeColor works, so im curious to know if they are perfect, or there is some compromises or loss in those devices that degrade the resolution/ image quality in any way ?

I dont know what exist or how all digital works, im just asking about your setup and your devices.

Do you know if your JVC and eeColor have any loss or compromise in the processing.?

Andreas21

Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:27 am Post subject:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

stridsvognen wrote:

Andreas21 wrote:

You dont have any clue about anything when it comes to projection or calibration, so I am not willing discuss anything more with you.

So lets forget about calibration and talk about processors.

Do you have a processor, or CMS unit who can calculate and correct each pixel real time without any compromise or loss.?

You sure act like you know it all.

To my knowledge and my limited testing I can see no loss or compromise in the prosessing, but I am not stupid and know there will always be compromises. What you say about color resolution loss is not present in my current setup, but when I had the Lumagen XS it was there together wil loss of detail in colors near black. I have never used a Lumagen on my X500.

Your CRT and my digital is full of compromises and there is no such thing as a perfect analogue or digital projector.

And when you talk about loss of resolution, what can you say about a CRT today that only has 30-50% MTF when displaying 1080p??
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