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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should shift the discussion to see how well the digital projectors handle a 480i input 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Andreas I got my CRT to <1dE average, some points were >.1dE. CRT can be calibrated just as good if not better than Digital. |
What external prosessor do you use?
I have not said it could not, but I doubt better. My VW1000 calibrated to 0,2 average Delta E (but that is just a report, with Delta E under 3 you would not see the difference), but this has nothing to do with it as I never said a CRT can not be calibrated to perfection with an external CMS.
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CSX wrote: | | Maybe we should shift the discussion to see how well the digital projectors handle a 480i input |
Here i Norway we had 576i and 575p (PAL), but I have not seen that on any of my projectors in a long time. The last time I watched a PAL DVD in my HT was in 2006.
And yes I am sure your CRT would blow my digital away with a 480i input. 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Luuk neele wrote: | | pointless discussion, everybody seems to be forgetting that the screenshots prove nothing. as you're all watching those on uncalibrated LCD or LED , IPS or STN, or TFT screens..... |
Despite multiple people having tried to explain that, there are a couple here who pretend that reality is otherwise and keep harping on the issue. It's pretty fun to watch 
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Now I'm a CRT guy but Kurt I can not for the life of me see how you think the CRT is clearer and sharper than the JVC x700 from tanwn1 shots
Nashou |
I dont remember commenting his shots..? I think i have been very clear what i think is needed to make a CRT perform to a level where it will be able to resolve full HD material.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| tanwn1 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
The biggest problem with you stridvognen is that you are so narrow sighted and to you a digital will always be trash.
I have seen digitals with a smooth grayscale, my X500 after the eeColor calibration has close to it, but of corse not 100% perfect. And I dont think that is possible with a CRT either. What is ringing on the gamma. To me ringing is edge enhancement from addigng to much sharpness, but I have never heard of ringing on the gamma. |
The ringing i Refer to is what happens in betwen 2 correction point on a digital CMS, lets say you have a perfect 21 point grayscale calibration, but when you look at the ramp, you will see you have some fast color shift in betwen these points.
On a crt, if you dont add digital CMS, you have soft gamma shift, so if the gamma is off somewhere it will be in a nice smooth curveshape.
A well tweaked/ calibrated CRT look to me as the best grayscale possible, when the full bit dept is intact, and there is no digital CMS to mess it up. |
I hope you are not referring to some ancient or low end digital projectors of a few years back. Please do yourself a favor to view the latest jvc as i believe u have not done so as you think they are all trash. |
I have seen the last JVC.
Im not trashing the JVC, i just have a preference for some of the stuff a well tweaked/ moddet Marquee do, and a video chain with as little digital processing as possible, as i have never seen a signal passing a processor without getting degraded.
I also more than 1 time on this forum stated that ill prefer a JVC projector over my SONY G90. And most other low bandwidth CRT projectors i have seen for that matter.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | Andreas I got my CRT to <1dE average, some points were >.1dE. CRT can be calibrated just as good if not better than Digital. |
What external prosessor do you use?
I have not said it could not, but I doubt better. My VW1000 calibrated to 0,2 average Delta E (but that is just a report, with Delta E under 3 you would not see the difference), but this has nothing to do with it as I never said a CRT can not be calibrated to perfection with an external CMS. |
A CRT can be calibrated close to perfect, just using the analog options in the projector, leaving the CMS out of the video chain.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
Do these images show the ringing you describe?
 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
Does this image show the ringing you describe?
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Thats a step pattern, not a ramp, you need a gray ramp, who will show each step of the 8 bit resolution from black to white.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
Does this image show the ringing you describe?
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Thats a step pattern, not a ramp, you need a gray ramp, who will show each step of the 8 bit resolution from black to white. |
A ramp is also a step pattern. The only difference is the size of the step. We can only show digital images here.
Do you see the ringing in the images I posted or not?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
Does this image show the ringing you describe?
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Thats a step pattern, not a ramp, you need a gray ramp, who will show each step of the 8 bit resolution from black to white. |
A ramp is also a step pattern. The only difference is the size of the step. We can only show digital images here.
Do you see the ringing in the images I posted or not? |
No i dont see the ringing on your pic.. You are displaying a low resolution step pattern, sometimes it will be vissible on a step pattern, but then its very bad.
Here is a picture of a green tube face displaying a small part of the ramp.
Last edited by stridsvognen on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | No i dont see the ringing on your pic.. |
I do. Easily. Most humans do. They are called mach bands and are an optical illusion of the human visual system.
The apparent lighter thin line in the middle on the transition isn't in the data, the perception of it is all in the head.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | No i dont see the ringing on your pic.. |
I do. Easily. Most humans do. They are called mach bands and are an optical illusion of the human visual system. |
Well maybe im not using the right term, so you will have to try understand what im trying to say.
The ringing i refer to is when the bit resolution is not graduating right, and introduce fast color shift on the ramp.
What your trying to show is something else.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | No i dont see the ringing on your pic.. |
I do. Easily. Most humans do. They are called mach bands and are an optical illusion of the human visual system. |
Well maybe im not using the right term, so you will have to try understand what im trying to say.
The ringing i refer to is when the bit resolution is not graduating right, and introduce fast color shift on the ramp.
What your trying to show is something else. |
I think I understand. My point however is that not all faults we perceive in displays are faults with the display. The Human Visual System has faults too and Mach Bands are a very real human vision artifact when in comes to looking at step ramp patterns. Especially grayscale step ramp patterns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_bands
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | El Duderino wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | No i dont see the ringing on your pic.. |
I do. Easily. Most humans do. They are called mach bands and are an optical illusion of the human visual system. |
Well maybe im not using the right term, so you will have to try understand what im trying to say.
The ringing i refer to is when the bit resolution is not graduating right, and introduce fast color shift on the ramp.
What your trying to show is something else. |
I think I understand. My point however is that not all faults we perceive in displays are faults with the display. The Human Visual System has faults too and Mach Bands are a very real human vision artifact when in comes to looking at step ramp patterns. Especially grayscale step ramp patterns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_bands |
I follow you, just that what im talking about is very visible, just changing player processor dac or so on, if its wrong its wrong, if its right its right.
The Radiance dont pass that test.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: |
I think I understand. My point however is that not all faults we perceive in displays are faults with the display. The Human Visual System has faults too and Mach Bands are a very real human vision artifact when in comes to looking at step ramp patterns. Especially grayscale step ramp patterns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_bands |
This is funny. First one has to understand the purpose of a ramp pattern, and when they do, they know what to look for. I use it all the time and have never seen tiny martians running across the screen.
If someone was to smoke Pot or maybe too much alcohol, I'm sure they could have a problem with that pattern if they stirred at it long enough. But the goal with that pattern is to see how well the ramp remain linear, or/and non distorted from dark to light (100IRE).
It can tell you a lot about a display system when used with understanding. And for sure, it's not a friend to a digital display, and that was Stid's point
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | This is funny. First one has to understand the purpose of a ramp pattern, and when they do, they know what to look for. I use it all the time and have never seen tiny martians running across the screen.
If someone was to smoke Pot or maybe too much alcohol, I'm sure they could have a problem with that pattern if they stirred at it long enough. |
No tiny martians and no pot needed. The human brain and visual system has it own edge-detection and edge-enhancement ringing built in. Laugh if you want, but the effect is very real and a stepped grayscale can exhibit luminance banding or ringing, when it's not even there.
 
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | This is funny. First one has to understand the purpose of a ramp pattern, and when they do, they know what to look for. I use it all the time and have never seen tiny martians running across the screen.
If someone was to smoke Pot or maybe too much alcohol, I'm sure they could have a problem with that pattern if they stirred at it long enough. |
No tiny martians and no pot needed. The human brain and visual system has it own edge-detection and edge-enhancement ringing built in. Laugh if you want, but the effect is very real and a stepped grayscale can exhibit luminance banding, when it's not there.
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That may be true with "stepped" but a ramp pattern is not normally considered a "Step Pattern" it is used mostly for linearity, which is the ramp (straight line) from the bottom left to the far top right. It shows on the screen as dark to bright from left to right. On a scope, you'll see a line from bottom left to top right. And in the video chain you can see also what Stid was referring to and that is distortions on the line. Or it can be used to check for a bowed line or to check the performance of a gamma circuit in the electrical.
I'm just saying as much as I use it, I've never seen what you described using a ramp pattern, but a step pattern would be a different subject on this because of the vertical lines it uses
I wasn't laughing at you or your intent. I just thought your reference to the mind seeing something that's not on the screen as being being a little funny. But again, what you mention, refers to "edge detection and edge enhancement" A ramp pattern does not have edges in it. Only start and finish
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | A ramp pattern does not have edges in it. |
What's the difference between a digital 'ramp' and a digital 'step'? Digital is quantized into discrete values by it's very nature. If it's quantized, it's got 'edges'. The difference between 0,0,0 and 1,1,1 is a STEP.
Last edited by El Duderino on Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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