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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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PostLink Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:28 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this.
I will not put up your earlier explanation of this.
And this picture shows HUGE lack of depth, sharpness, details, MTF on CRT.
I just like to hear what you can tell form this.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Even if I donīt like screenshot there is not difficult to see with these 3 closeups that there is a huge difference in detail and sharpness. The noise we can see in the JVC pictures is caused by e-shift 3 as it can introduse some noise, but it is only visible when you stick your nose up to the screen or take closeups like this. If turn off e-shift the noise will be gone, but you will have visible pixels and some slight stair stepping when taking these kind og closeups. The picture will also get a tad sharper with e-shift turned off and is more smooth and filmlike with e-shift on.
And Diddern, I donīt think it is edge enhancement we see as this would be present everywhere in the shot. If you look closely at the CRT you can see (where it can show the detail) that it has the same while edges. |
What? You still think I tampering with my images and with edge enhancement now? I do you suppose I do that?
I have said before, in my thread, that I go past center focus by 3 clicks to get perfect edges. Since then I'm back to zero clicks past 50 on master focus and yet perfect edges so this set up is better than the previous one, and any click past fifty takes away the same amount from center focus. But now I don't have to worrie about that. |
No, I said it was not edge enhancement. It is there in the source and it is only shown clearer with the JVC. 
I trust you and you take nice screenshots, and I think you like me and Diddern do not manipulate the images we post here. |
Ok, I got you. Let's not start that feud again shall we.
Discoloured blue on the lower left image provided. |
What film?, I like to show the same form the jvc. |
Baraka again. I can't get enough of that one, just beautiful from start to finish. This shot in particular is not representative for my screen though, and so never bothered to post it because it does look like sh*t, but for edge-to-edge uniformity it looks good enough. I'll redo it some day and post. |
Have a remux post later what time in the movie? |
It is a remux only lower standard HDM in it and a mix of other boards. Since then I've upgraded my boards to newer once so it should look quite a bit better. The time frame is in the photo 01:24:11.
I'll re-shot it tonight and see what difference there might be.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this. |
You cant get that out of any brand, i have only seen results with the MP modified Marquee.
So if you compare Mikes CRT side by side with a 909 or a G90 or 9500LC you will see that a standard CRT projector will not resolve 1080P very well, it will look more like SD content.
You should know that as you claim to have experience with a high bandwidth CRT projector.
I can easy understand why you love to play with Wolfman and his 80Mhz standard Marquee.
We have seen what happens when the JVC is compared to a 200Mhz + capable CRT projector, with most of the video chain tweaked to work with 1080P content. And that was with standard LCP tubes. Wonder what happens if it got a set of LUG tubes, and HD10E lenses.? Then imagine if that machine got the geometry, convergence, focus fine tuned, and got calibrated.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this. |
You cant get that out of any brand, i have only seen results with the MP modified Marquee.
So if you compare Mikes CRT side by side with a 909 or a G90 or 9500LC you will see that a standard CRT projector will not resolve 1080P very well, it will look more like SD content.
You should know that as you claim to have experience with a high bandwidth CRT projector.
I can easy understand why you love to play with Wolfman and his 80Mhz standard Marquee.
We have seen what happens when the JVC is compared to a 200Mhz + capable CRT projector, with most of the video chain tweaked to work with 1080P content. And that was with standard LCP tubes. Wonder what happens if it got a set of LUG tubes, and HD10E lenses.? Then imagine if that machine got the geometry, convergence, focus fine tuned, and got calibrated. |
The difference in this pictures from Prometheus will be just the same with Mikes CRT, thewolfmans screenshots have actually looked better than Mikes.
But I am sure Mike will not post these as it will only embarrass him.
And I wonder what happens to digitals in the next years, keep dreaming of your CRT mods stridsvognen, it will not make much of a difference.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this. |
You cant get that out of any brand, i have only seen results with the MP modified Marquee.
So if you compare Mikes CRT side by side with a 909 or a G90 or 9500LC you will see that a standard CRT projector will not resolve 1080P very well, it will look more like SD content.
You should know that as you claim to have experience with a high bandwidth CRT projector.
I can easy understand why you love to play with Wolfman and his 80Mhz standard Marquee.
We have seen what happens when the JVC is compared to a 200Mhz + capable CRT projector, with most of the video chain tweaked to work with 1080P content. And that was with standard LCP tubes. Wonder what happens if it got a set of LUG tubes, and HD10E lenses.? Then imagine if that machine got the geometry, convergence, focus fine tuned, and got calibrated. |
The difference in this pictures from Prometheus will be just the same with Mikes CRT, thewolfmans screenshots have actually looked better than Mikes.
But I am sure Mike will not post these as it will only embarrass him.
And I wonder what happens to digitals in the next years, keep dreaming of your CRT mods stridsvognen, it will not make much of a difference. |
Nice to see you guys starting to make conclusions from the screen shots.
I agree that Wolfmans shots in may ways looks better than the JVC, they keep a cleaner black and much much less noise and artifacts, and thats funny when knowing how much noise there is in the standard video chain in a Marquee.
Are you guys running with or without E shift.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
The difference in this pictures from Prometheus will be just the same with Mikes CRT, thewolfmans screenshots have actually looked better than Mikes |
Well then, rather than use Wolfman for your pawn, why not do your comparison with me, plus as you say his shots were better than mine, so you'll have less of a challenge dealing with me instead..
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But I am sure Mike will not post these as it will only embarrass him |
This whole thread is a comedy in the making, why not join in and have some fun posting shots...are you sure you want to do that..
| Quote: | | And I wonder what happens to digitals in the next years, keep dreaming of your CRT mods stridsvognen, it will not make much of a difference. |
Good point.. maybe in some years to come there will be something to be worried about, but until that happens, it makes more sense to use Wolfman to compare your shots to..
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this. |
You cant get that out of any brand, i have only seen results with the MP modified Marquee.
So if you compare Mikes CRT side by side with a 909 or a G90 or 9500LC you will see that a standard CRT projector will not resolve 1080P very well, it will look more like SD content.
You should know that as you claim to have experience with a high bandwidth CRT projector.
I can easy understand why you love to play with Wolfman and his 80Mhz standard Marquee.
We have seen what happens when the JVC is compared to a 200Mhz + capable CRT projector, with most of the video chain tweaked to work with 1080P content. And that was with standard LCP tubes. Wonder what happens if it got a set of LUG tubes, and HD10E lenses.? Then imagine if that machine got the geometry, convergence, focus fine tuned, and got calibrated. |
The difference in this pictures from Prometheus will be just the same with Mikes CRT, thewolfmans screenshots have actually looked better than Mikes.
But I am sure Mike will not post these as it will only embarrass him.
And I wonder what happens to digitals in the next years, keep dreaming of your CRT mods stridsvognen, it will not make much of a difference. |
Nice to see you guys starting to make conclusions from the screen shots.
I agree that Wolfmans shots in may ways looks better than the JVC, they keep a cleaner black and much much less noise and artifacts, and thats funny when knowing how much noise there is in the standard video chain in a Marquee.
Are you guys running with or without E shift.? |
I am not drawing any conlutions about cleaner black and that kind of bull, the only thing I say is that details and sharpness is way better on the JVC. Noice can actually come from the source also, but the CRT does not have the detail or sharpness to show it and that is positive in a way.
If you read what I write: some of the noise is from e-shift 3, the noise is gone if you turn it off and the picture is a little sharper, but with it turned off you get a little jagged edges (stair stepping) and a little less filmlike image. The noise is not wisible from seating distance and the positives outweigh the negatives with e-shift.
And where did I say the wolfmans shots look bettter than the JVC??
But stridsvognen do you know what ansi/intrascene contrast is? Does the CRT do well in such measurements?
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
The difference in this pictures from Prometheus will be just the same with Mikes CRT, thewolfmans screenshots have actually looked better than Mikes |
Well then, rather than use Wolfman for your pawn, why not do your comparison with me, plus as you say his shots were better than mine, so you'll have less of a challenge dealing with me instead..
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But I am sure Mike will not post these as it will only embarrass him |
This whole thread is a comedy in the making, why not join in and have some fun posting shots...are you sure you want to do that..
| Quote: | | And I wonder what happens to digitals in the next years, keep dreaming of your CRT mods stridsvognen, it will not make much of a difference. |
Good point.. maybe in some years to come there will be something to be worried about, but until that happens, it makes more sense to use Wolfman to compare your shots to.. |
If you post your 1:1 vertical lines shoot and the same close ups Diddern did and post them here I will do the same.
Letīs have some fun in the comedy tread!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
I am not drawing any conlutions about cleaner black and that kind of bull, the only thing I say is that details and sharpness is way better on the JVC. Noice can actually come from the source also, but the CRT does not have the detail or sharpness to show it and that is positive in a way |
What, and by what means did you make this determination....please don't tell me you referenced the screenshots to come to that conclusion..
| Quote: | | If you read what I write: some of the noise is from e-shift 3, the noise is gone if you turn it off and the picture is a little sharper, but with it turned off you get a little jagged edges (stair stepping) and a little less filmlike image. The noise is not wisible from seating distance and the positives outweigh the negatives with e-shift |
Wow...
Maybe in one of the future models you'll be able to use e-shift and not get the noise
| Quote: | | But stridsvognen do you know what ansi/intrascene contrast is? Does the CRT do well in such measurements? |
What difference does it make, if you're not able to completely go to black, and have elevated low end performance. Other than a numbers thing, it mean little to nothing.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | Tell me Mr. Stridsvognen.
How can it be possible that a CRT any brand can be better at showing how a picture shall be shown when the MTF is 30-50 compared to a machine almost resolve 1080p almost hundred % ,,, how is that possible? What happens to debth, clearness, details, and so on. Because of the MTF?
Tell me this and only this. |
You cant get that out of any brand, i have only seen results with the MP modified Marquee.
So if you compare Mikes CRT side by side with a 909 or a G90 or 9500LC you will see that a standard CRT projector will not resolve 1080P very well, it will look more like SD content.
You should know that as you claim to have experience with a high bandwidth CRT projector.
I can easy understand why you love to play with Wolfman and his 80Mhz standard Marquee.
We have seen what happens when the JVC is compared to a 200Mhz + capable CRT projector, with most of the video chain tweaked to work with 1080P content. And that was with standard LCP tubes. Wonder what happens if it got a set of LUG tubes, and HD10E lenses.? Then imagine if that machine got the geometry, convergence, focus fine tuned, and got calibrated. |
Bring it on
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: |
I am not drawing any conlutions about cleaner black and that kind of bull, the only thing I say is that details and sharpness is way better on the JVC. Noice can actually come from the source also, but the CRT does not have the detail or sharpness to show it and that is positive in a way |
What, and by what means did you make this determination....please don't tell me you referenced the screenshots to come to that conclusion..
| Quote: | | If you read what I write: some of the noise is from e-shift 3, the noise is gone if you turn it off and the picture is a little sharper, but with it turned off you get a little jagged edges (stair stepping) and a little less filmlike image. The noise is not wisible from seating distance and the positives outweigh the negatives with e-shift |
Wow...
Maybe in one of the future models you'll be able to use e-shift and not get the noise
| Quote: | | But stridsvognen do you know what ansi/intrascene contrast is? Does the CRT do well in such measurements? |
What difference does it make, if you're not able to completely go to black, and have elevated low end performance. Other than a numbers thing, it mean little to nothing. |
It makes a huge difference as ansi/inteascene contrast toghther with on/off contrast is two of the main things in showing a great picture and CRT is only good at one of those.
The JVC can go black I promice you and does not have elevated low end performance. If your screenshots show anything like what you see on screen you have set the brightness and gamma totally wrong and this results in black crush. Something I wonder if you CRT guys think is a good thing. If you set the brightness and gamma (2.2-2.4) correct on your CRT it will not go complete black when showing 0 IRE.
The problem with CRT is that as soon as you introduce some light into the scene it looses itīs ability to show black and shows gray instead because of the poor intrascene contrast performance. You can have all the on/off you want, but if you donīt have intrascene contrast it does not matter. The JVC has higher on/off and much higher ansi/intrascene contrast than your CRT and this toghether with many other factors makes it throw a much more dynamic picture.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: |
Bring it on |
OK, so does this mean you guys will be posting screenshots from the X500 that we can also do the same?
I must warn you that my CRT is not calibrated, nor has the focus bee finely tuned...but no problem at all because I see no need to do these things first.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
Bring it on |
OK, so does this mean you guys will be posting screenshots from the X500 that we can also do the same?
I must warn you that my CRT is not calibrated, nor has the focus bee finely tuned...but no problem at all because I see no need to do these things first. |
Spend the week fine tunig it and take screenshots when it is at its best, no need to take pictures now only to say it is not at its best now so it can show much better pictures if I just fine tune it first. We can wait.
Color calibration does not matter ( I presume your camera is not calibrated just as my camera is not calibrated) only set the brightness and contrast correct and have a linear gamma curve at around 2.3 or so. My JVC is set at 2.35 power gamma.
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Last edited by Andreas21 on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
Bring it on |
OK, so does this mean you guys will be posting screenshots from the X500 that we can also do the same?
I must warn you that my CRT is not calibrated, nor has the focus bee finely tuned...but no problem at all because I see no need to do these things first. |
Spend the week fine tunig it and take screenshots when it is at its best, no need to take pictures now only to say it is not at its best now so it can show much better pictures if I just fine tune it first. We can wait. |
I see no challenge, so I'll enter it in the race as is. Maybe on the future models, I'll fine tune it. But based on your last shot of the mud, I'm ready!
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
Bring it on |
OK, so does this mean you guys will be posting screenshots from the X500 that we can also do the same?
I must warn you that my CRT is not calibrated, nor has the focus bee finely tuned...but no problem at all because I see no need to do these things first. |
Spend the week fine tunig it and take screenshots when it is at its best, no need to take pictures now only to say it is not at its best now so it can show much better pictures if I just fine tune it first. We can wait. |
I see no challenge, so I'll enter it in the race as is. Maybe on the future models, I'll fine tune it. But based on your last shot of the mud, I'm ready! |
Ok, take the closeups Didden posted and let us see. I am not afraid.
And no editing, just downsize.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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close up of what?
And was those shots from your calibrated X500?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | close up of what?
And was those shots from your calibrated X500? |
Diddern posted 3 close ups from Prometheus and the wolfman also did it. Have you not seen them?
The close ups are from Didderns uncalibrated X500. But with a linear gamma of around 2.35.
This is one of them JVC on top CRT on the bottom.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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That Blu Ray I don't have...plus, my question was it from "your calibrated X500"
I would love to do that one though, maybe I should get it.
| Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | close up of what?
And was those shots from your calibrated X500? |
Diddern posted 3 close ups from Prometheus and the wolfman also did it. Have you not seen them?
The close ups are from Didderns uncalibrated X500. But with a linear gamma of around 2.35.
This is one of them JVC on top CRT on the bottom. |
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | That Blu Ray I don't have...plus, my question was it from "your calibrated X500"
I would love to do that one though, maybe I should get it.
| Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | close up of what?
And was those shots from your calibrated X500? |
Diddern posted 3 close ups from Prometheus and the wolfman also did it. Have you not seen them?
The close ups are from Didderns uncalibrated X500. But with a linear gamma of around 2.35.
This is one of them JVC on top CRT on the bottom. |
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And I answered!
Prometheus is one of the best scifi movies on BD to show off picturequality, but it is filmed with digital cameras so you CRT gyus probarbly wonīt like it.
The movie it self is ok.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Or do you prefer I use Diddern's Shot?
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