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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | kal wrote: | Greg,
I don't think anyone is arguing that your mods don't make a difference. It's the claims you're making that people want want more information on.
For example, the whole point of this thread (one you started if I may remind you) is your initial comment:
| Quote: | We just completed a customers CRT with our new mods and Simulation grade CRT tubes. The user had a shot out war with a new Sony VW1000ES
The Barco Cine 9 won with new simulation tubes and mods! |
So tell us more. Where's the writeup of this Cine 9 vs. VW1000 shootout? How did it win?
The only information about this anyone could find was here in this AVS thread that has now been deleted:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1491224/eisemann-theater-simulation-grade-tubes-have-a-better-picture-than-an-vw1000es
In that thread the only comment was from the VW1000 owner and he said the CRT only won in very dark scenes. So quite the opposite of what you're stating.
You also posted a bunch of links, none of which have anything to do with this contest.
Jask summed it up well:
| Quote: | Posting a bunch of links to your site and 5 year old posts on another forum, with no content related to the thread subject contributes nothing to your claim.
I did get to read the post from the digital owner- since he was not the one who was impressed could you post a link to the person who was? What test were performed? benchmarks used? I have no doubt your tubes are great, but how about some real objective numbers instead of hype? |
Kal |
I think Kal hit the nail on the head. I'm still curious about the original post, notably the portion bolded above. I still haven't seen anything here that would support that statement, outside of the typical motion blur/absolute black advantage that CRT can have over LCoS, which is certainly nothing new.
I'm also curious as to who the "users" are in the report that you attached above Greg - are you referring to the pilots flying the sim, or the simulator maintainers? Most simulators - both on the civilian and military side - that I've used have switched to LCoS (I haven't seen DLP or LCD, most likely for contrast reasons), and as someone who has to use them regularly, I have always preferred the LCoS-driven images for their higher resolution and lack of softness. If one were doing BFM or ACM where motion blur could become a factor, I could see CRT being useful.
Regarding black levels and night simulation, whenever I'm on a night flight, I'm always interested at how much ambient light is present both in and outside of the cockpit. Whether that be from stars, planets, the moon, or especially man-made light, there's few times where it's completely pitch black outside, and I've yet to see a night sky that was absolutely black, even with a significant overcast. And of course there's always cockpit lighting, which, even when dimmed to uselessly low levels, will always negate the need for absolute black reproduction in a display. It's even worse in the sim, where the operator station provides an extra source of light pollution. |
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Again and the truth, I did the tests together with 3 and 4 persons. I have the test results with pictures that I do not put out here. And so this is completely clear a Sony VW 1000 was tested once. But that treed was deleted by someone. The pictures is form the HW50,,,, NOT the VW1000. And the VW1000 will NOT be tested again....Because that was FAAR form the CRT and everyone saw it in any way. Except some few sense, then in total darkness under 1-2% ire We tested later a Sony HW50 that the owner also had. And here I have the pictures side by side, same camera same adjustments on camera.
The only thing this pictures show, is sharpness, debt, and light punch. Nothing else. And To see it side by side you see more than the taken pictures and the differences. In no way ever I will say that the CRT was bad, but huge differences compared to the HW50. Again NOT the VW1000..... New mods are being done, and if the owner wants to have a test I show up, then only with the Sony HW50 or the new Sony HW55. If I show the results, they will be deleted...
Last edited by Diddern on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Show the results here, they will not be deleted. If they are, whoever deletes them better have a damn good reason.
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elpha
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:49 pm Post subject: results crt. |
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Yes, post the results here please
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think Greg was going to delete the thread over at AVS. I don't think Greg will have as much luck here. Just ask Gary Murrell. 
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Nothing was deleted on this forum. I think you mean the AVS thread that was deleted. I'm one of the moderators here and we only delete SPAM posts.
So post away anything you like!
Cheers,
Kal |
Here are some of the pictures that were taken.
Straight form the camera, no correction on the pictures are done.
The differences shown are very similar to what that is seen in real. But it looks much better in real, then with both the crt and the digital. Camera is set up close to screen so you can see the whole image. The CRT had a Darbee connected at green 40-50 % (do not remember) and the Sony HW50 had none...
The CRT beats the HW50 big in dark dark images. Example in life of PI where you see just a little boat on the water and everything around is completely dark on the crt while the hw50 or any digital will look some grey around the boat. The Hw50 beats the CRT form images like AVATAR in space at the start. So similar to 3-4% ire and down ""Crt best""
From 3% ire to 100% ire The HW50 best then in my eyes and also the people present.. """At all."""
The so called picture war, was pictures form a hw50 and some taken by a iphone and same with the crt. And the pictures look good. But a picture does not prove anything else if not taken in same room same cam. and so on.
The pictures are form different films paused and picture taken without touching camera. Both with same shutter time and possession. Then on the CRT talked about in this forum. and a Sony HW50 not a vw1000..
And to try to remember a picture,,, you don't. So only way side by side. But I recommend that others do the same with a JVC or a Sony and see for them selves against a crt.. And post it here.
You see who is what projector ...
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Last edited by Diddern on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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i can see that CRT setup need some serious calibration, looks like the grayscale and gamma is all messed up.
The only right thing would be to calibrate the 2 projectors so they hava identical calibration data.
White on that CRT is all blue.. lets guess about 12000 kelvin. I would be ashamed to invite anyone to a shoutout with a porly calibrated projector like that.
So i agree.. The SONY looks much better...
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | i can see that CRT setup need some serious calibration, looks like the grayscale and gamma is all messed up.
The only right thing would be to calibrate the 2 projectors so they hava identical calibration data.
White on that CRT is all blue.. lets guess about 12000 kelvin. I would be ashamed to invite anyone to a shoutout with a porly calibrated projector like that.
So i agree.. The SONY looks much better... |
That is correct, but not possible at that time. I hope the owner after new modd let me check again and then easy to see the improvement and then can post again. Remember that the Sony HW50 was calibrated up to another screen.
With D65, Rec 709. The Barco was off, I knew that. But still even if it were calibrated you see with no problem that there are huge differences in favor the hw50
Last edited by Diddern on Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any data what resoluytion and framerate was used on the CRT. pixel clock video chain and so on.?
Still i think its not serious to make a shootout when the projector is not calibrated and ready to perform its best.
If i was that guy with the Barco i would hide myself for the rest of the world for a loooong time.
The pictures shows clearly that he have no idea what PQ is all about. He dont need any mod to do better than that.. just buy a 100$ standard Marquee 8500 with HD8 lenses.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed the Barco needs a calibration.
According sharpness it will not be on the same level as the digital but that doesn't matter because a "film like" image counts.
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | Indeed the Barco needs a calibration.
According sharpness it will not be on the same level as the digital but that doesn't matter because a "film like" image counts. |
And what is a film like image?, many crt users say that even me many years ago . And I also though that the motion was better on a crt. But oi tested that also. The hw50 was better in 60frames pr sec. and best in 24 frames pr sec.
But film HD is HD not SD. So what is a film like image. I think that most people like to watch a movie with best picture possible. Even what you own.
So if you prefer soft images, lack of debt, bad intrasenecontrast, less punch, darker colors. And a projector that's very difficult to get linear form 0-100% What's left?
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | Indeed the Barco needs a calibration.
According sharpness it will not be on the same level as the digital but that doesn't matter because a "film like" image counts. |
I cant coment on Barco sharpness, but if its sharper than a standard Marquee, i dont think sharpness is a isue, actualy i would think you have to defocus it not to make visible scanlines on the screen.
But the screenshot i seen from 1:1 resolution from a 909, loks like it cant resolve 1:1 vertical resolution at all.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Is there any data what resoluytion and framerate was used on the CRT. pixel clock video chain and so on.?
Still i think its not serious to make a shootout when the projector is not calibrated and ready to perform its best.
If i was that guy with the Barco i would hide myself for the rest of the world for a loooong time.
The pictures shows clearly that he have no idea what PQ is all about. He dont need any mod to do better than that.. just buy a 100$ standard Marquee 8500 with HD8 lenses. |
Resolution blueray 1080P 60 HZ with HDMI direct to the projector. both form a oppo player
I agree on the shootout. There were so much bragging that this will beat everything, we went and this is was the result. And only with a hw50.
I have told my friend that it really need to get calibrated. I hope he does, so we can see how it will do then. And specially after new mods coming. I gave him a avfoundy pro so he can calibrate it the best way. And not pay so much money. But I think it will not make a different. Of Corse colors be correct, better gamma, and the correct greyscale. But the same best form 0-4% ire, form 4-100% ire it will lose. And to this just buy a 100$ standard Marquee 8500 with HD8 lenses no.
I have seen this crt form before mods and after, and its huge improvements. But why compare if you're satisfied, and don't say that something is better. And I agree with Kal """Some will argue that CRT does better with lowest black level (near black) while digital does just about everything else better. It's up to the end user to decide what's right with them. """
Last edited by Diddern on Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Is there any data what resoluytion and framerate was used on the CRT. pixel clock video chain and so on.?
Still i think its not serious to make a shootout when the projector is not calibrated and ready to perform its best.
If i was that guy with the Barco i would hide myself for the rest of the world for a loooong time.
The pictures shows clearly that he have no idea what PQ is all about. He dont need any mod to do better than that.. just buy a 100$ standard Marquee 8500 with HD8 lenses. |
Resolution blueray 1080P 60 HZ with HDMI direct to the projector. both form a oppo player
I agree on the shootout. There were so much bragging that this will beat everything, we went and this is was the result. And only with a hw50.
I have told my friend that it really need to get calibrated. I hope he does, so we can see how it will do then. And specially after new mods coming. I gave him a avfoundy pro so he can calibrate it the best way. And not pay so much money. But I think it will not make a different. Of Corse colors be correct, better gamma, and the correct greyscale. But the same best form 0-4% ire, form 4-100% ire it will lose. |
Again i cant coment on how a Barco will be able to perform, but i still think there is more to a picture than sharpness, and im quite sure that i can make a more alive picture with better dept, and better color reproduction on my CRT than any Digital.
I think the barco simply miss bandwidth to resolce both resolution and colors.
I have a JVC X7/ RS50 to compare against my CRT, and i prefer my CRT, even my old 9500LC, but after i got my 9553LC Ultra, and the MP VIM and neck boards, its just taken a new level, right now i just made a 817P 96hz profile, running a pixel clock around 195Mhz, and still able to see visible scanlines on the green tube looking into the lense.
Thats with a standard P19LCP tube, i wonder if a LUG tube will do better, ill get one soon.
So i think it comes down to taste.. And CRT at that level is a lot of work, making any digital look like plug and play.
I made shootout betwen my 9500Lc and my JVC, and no one ever prefered the JVC, both calibrated to same settings.
Ill love to see one of the top SONY projectors here one day, and a BARCO 909
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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What Barco model is that on the ceiling ?
BG808s with HD-145 ?
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Is there any data what resoluytion and framerate was used on the CRT. pixel clock video chain and so on.?
Still i think its not serious to make a shootout when the projector is not calibrated and ready to perform its best.
If i was that guy with the Barco i would hide myself for the rest of the world for a loooong time.
The pictures shows clearly that he have no idea what PQ is all about. He dont need any mod to do better than that.. just buy a 100$ standard Marquee 8500 with HD8 lenses. |
Resolution blueray 1080P 60 HZ with HDMI direct to the projector. both form a oppo player
I agree on the shootout. There were so much bragging that this will beat everything, we went and this is was the result. And only with a hw50.
I have told my friend that it really need to get calibrated. I hope he does, so we can see how it will do then. And specially after new mods coming. I gave him a avfoundy pro so he can calibrate it the best way. And not pay so much money. But I think it will not make a different. Of Corse colors be correct, better gamma, and the correct greyscale. But the same best form 0-4% ire, form 4-100% ire it will lose. |
Again i cant coment on how a Barco will be able to perform, but i still think there is more to a picture than sharpness, and im quite sure that i can make a more alive picture with better dept, and better color reproduction on my CRT than any Digital.
I think the barco simply miss bandwidth to resolce both resolution and colors.
I have a JVC X7/ RS50 to compare against my CRT, and i prefer my CRT, even my old 9500LC, but after i got my 9553LC Ultra, and the MP VIM and neck boards, its just taken a new level, right now i just made a 817P 96hz profile, running a pixel clock around 195Mhz, and still able to see visible scanlines on the green tube looking into the lense.
Thats with a standard P19LCP tube, i wonder if a LUG tube will do better, ill get one soon.
So i think it comes down to taste.. And CRT at that level is a lot of work, making any digital look like plug and play.
I made shootout betwen my 9500Lc and my JVC, and no one ever prefered the JVC, both calibrated to same settings.
Ill love to see one of the top SONY projectors here one day, and a BARCO 909 |
Like I said but here in another direction. Some like the daughter and some like the mother. hehe And thank god for that.
What did you like better on the Crt compared to your jvc.? please tell me.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | What Barco model is that on the ceiling ?
BG808s with HD-145 ? |
The projector maybe a rare Barco 908, but the lens is HD144 not HD145
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | What Barco model is that on the ceiling ?
BG808s with HD-145 ? |
Not me to say, I just post the truth.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | How was the "iPhone" held in position so it does not move?
Nashou |
The pictures posted here are from a 10m pixel canon camera. Not form a phone.
READ...
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