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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Screenshots will be posted by Diddern as the owner of this Barco is also a friend og his.
I also think this 3.5Ghz is a big joke and all the CRT mods to, and I think you are wrong that ansicontrast can be lost thru the video chain. Ansicontrast is one of the biggest disadvantages a CRT has against a good digital, a good CRT measures about 100:1 and a good digital 6-700:1 and if you combine this with high on/off contrast like the VW1000 has you get a very dynamic and 3 dimentional picture a CRT can only dream about. Combined with the sharpness and brightness this is a killer combination. |
You can measure a ansi contrast on a normal ansi pattern, there a CRT will do better than 1:1 pixel resolution so actualy the ansi contrast is even worse on high resolution content than you measure.
But if you have the bandwidth to resolve the high resolution you also improve the contrast.
Then there is the noise on crt, and removing that also improves contrast, last you can mask the parts of the tubes not used for 16:9 screens, this will remove a lot of reflections in the chambers and lenses, also improves ansi contrast.. All stuff that wont be there on a standard machine.
So the performance you have seen might not have mutch to do with whats possible to do with a CRT.. |
Ansi contrast is ONLY measured by one standardized pattern.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | stridsvognen, I will post a photo as soon as I get it on https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34871.html
Since it do not belong in this topic. Wait and see, personally I think its better than yours  Since he got 3.5Ghz mod card the only one for test. I'm just as interested as you. But I could be wrong. |
You guys need to admit you have no clue about CRT tech.. So you wont be able to see where the problem is on a crt, even its right in front of your nose, thats a serious handicap if you like to evaluate and comment on CRT performance.
So with you as judge we will never know if the problem is the mods.. the setup, or the video chain..
But i bet that we once again will see a very poor CRT performance from Norway.
Last time someone should have screamed stop and trown that Barco in the lake.. Anyone at all thinking to compare with a projector calibrated to 12000K should be shot.
And another bullet for letting the darbee be alowed.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Screenshots will be posted by Diddern as the owner of this Barco is also a friend og his.
I also think this 3.5Ghz is a big joke and all the CRT mods to, and I think you are wrong that ansicontrast can be lost thru the video chain. Ansicontrast is one of the biggest disadvantages a CRT has against a good digital, a good CRT measures about 100:1 and a good digital 6-700:1 and if you combine this with high on/off contrast like the VW1000 has you get a very dynamic and 3 dimentional picture a CRT can only dream about. Combined with the sharpness and brightness this is a killer combination. |
You can measure a ansi contrast on a normal ansi pattern, there a CRT will do better than 1:1 pixel resolution so actualy the ansi contrast is even worse on high resolution content than you measure.
But if you have the bandwidth to resolve the high resolution you also improve the contrast.
Then there is the noise on crt, and removing that also improves contrast, last you can mask the parts of the tubes not used for 16:9 screens, this will remove a lot of reflections in the chambers and lenses, also improves ansi contrast.. All stuff that wont be there on a standard machine.
So the performance you have seen might not have mutch to do with whats possible to do with a CRT.. |
Ansi contrast is ONLY measured by one standardized pattern. |
Yeah.. But that dont mean that its the only way you will be able to see, or measure ansi contrast..
You need to open your mind and be able to understand what different parameters have of influence on the image, also parameters that dont drop under standard measurement methods..
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | stridsvognen, I will post a photo as soon as I get it on https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34871.html
Since it do not belong in this topic. Wait and see, personally I think its better than yours Since he got 3.5Ghz mod card the only one for test. I'm just as interested as you. But I could be wrong. |
You guys need to admit you have no clue about CRT tech.. So you wont be able to see where the problem is on a crt, even its right in front of your nose, thats a serious handicap if you like to evaluate and comment on CRT performance.
So with you as judge we will never know if the problem is the mods.. the setup, or the video chain..
But i bet that we once again will see a very poor CRT performance from Norway.
Last time someone should have screamed stop and trown that Barco in the lake.. Anyone at all thinking to compare with a projector calibrated to 12000K should be shot.
And another bullet for letting the darbee be alowed. |
Correct I have no clue about CRT teck admit that with no problem. And for me i do not care.
I leave that to the pro people here in Norway.
I doubt that it will be a poor performance for a CRT I think you be shocked. That's what I've heard but no proof yet.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | stridsvognen, I will post a photo as soon as I get it on https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=34871.html
Since it do not belong in this topic. Wait and see, personally I think its better than yours Since he got 3.5Ghz mod card the only one for test. I'm just as interested as you. But I could be wrong. |
You guys need to admit you have no clue about CRT tech.. So you wont be able to see where the problem is on a crt, even its right in front of your nose, thats a serious handicap if you like to evaluate and comment on CRT performance.
So with you as judge we will never know if the problem is the mods.. the setup, or the video chain..
But i bet that we once again will see a very poor CRT performance from Norway.
Last time someone should have screamed stop and trown that Barco in the lake.. Anyone at all thinking to compare with a projector calibrated to 12000K should be shot.
And another bullet for letting the darbee be alowed. |
I have never owned a CRT and I never will and I am fed up on hearing, if you do this and that with a CRT it wil be the best picture you have even seen and no digital is even close. This has time and time again resulted in the digital (VW1000 and HW50) getting no competition. Me personally like to put on my projector and just watch movies and turn it off when the movie is finished, not adjust and modify and this and that bull to get the picture 0,5% better. If I want a better picture I buy a better projector.
Add I find it very tempting to say that people who prefers CRT over a good digital these days do not care about good picture quality, they are just holdig on to a dying tech that was state of the art many years ago. And that is fine by me, just dont say that a CRT has better picture than a good digital because it is not true.
If you put up 2 cinemas in the same building and showed the same movie in both rooms, one with a good CRT and one with a good digital and showed it to 1000 people I am sure 1000 would prefer the digital. Even if they where experts, professionals or just ordinary people.
And stridsvognen it is very tempting for me to say I think you have no clue to what a good picture looks like, but I don´t say it. 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | Screenshots will be posted by Diddern as the owner of this Barco is also a friend og his.
I also think this 3.5Ghz is a big joke and all the CRT mods to, and I think you are wrong that ansicontrast can be lost thru the video chain. Ansicontrast is one of the biggest disadvantages a CRT has against a good digital, a good CRT measures about 100:1 and a good digital 6-700:1 and if you combine this with high on/off contrast like the VW1000 has you get a very dynamic and 3 dimentional picture a CRT can only dream about. Combined with the sharpness and brightness this is a killer combination. |
You can measure a ansi contrast on a normal ansi pattern, there a CRT will do better than 1:1 pixel resolution so actualy the ansi contrast is even worse on high resolution content than you measure.
But if you have the bandwidth to resolve the high resolution you also improve the contrast.
Then there is the noise on crt, and removing that also improves contrast, last you can mask the parts of the tubes not used for 16:9 screens, this will remove a lot of reflections in the chambers and lenses, also improves ansi contrast.. All stuff that wont be there on a standard machine.
So the performance you have seen might not have mutch to do with whats possible to do with a CRT.. |
Ansi contrast is ONLY measured by one standardized pattern. |
Yeah.. But that dont mean that its the only way you will be able to see, or measure ansi contrast..
You need to open your mind and be able to understand what different parameters have of influence on the image, also parameters that dont drop under standard measurement methods.. |
The best way to test ansicontrast without using the ansicontrast measurements and testpatterns is to watch mixed scenes in a movie with intrascenecontrast/silmontaniouscontrast pictures and see how the digital compares to the CRT. I do this all the time with different projectors and right now the Sony VW1000 has the most dynamic picture in mixed scenes, both bright, medium dark and dark scenes. When we did this with the CRT against the VW1000 and even the HW50 the CRT looks dull and flat in comparison. And this is backed up with ANSI contrast measurements with a checkerboard testpattern where the HW50 measures about 350:1, the VW1000 about 600:1 and a good CRT about 100:1. And combined with many other parameters like on/off contrast, sharpness and brightness tou get a good dynamic picture. This is fact and there is no way to modify a CRT to come even close to these Sony´s or even a JVC with E-shift that measures about 200:1 and without E-shift about 300:1
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Correct but to get the figures you need to use the ANSI contrast pattern.
But what Andreas says here is also correct.
But again a pattern is not everything it's kind of boring to watch patterns all the time hehe.
And what you see on screen when you watch movie counts more.
But it's also fun to understand different patterns, a very god BD with almost all,
is on the new Spears & Munsil hd benchmark 2nd edition.
You can play and play with patterns as long as you like.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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What is the native panel in the VW1000?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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It is not a LCD, and if he means the size of the panels they are 0.74" SXRD panels and they are Sony´s version of LCOS that stands for Liquid Crystal On Silicone. And the resolution is real 4K 4096x2160.
Last edited by Andreas21 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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4096 x 2160
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Diddern on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | | 4096 x 2160 |
Ok, help me out here, if that's the native resolution, then what source is they using here to make such claims... is the source also native 4096X2160?
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | ElTopo wrote: | | 4096 x 2160 |
Ok, help me out here, if that's the native resolution, then what source is they using here to make such claims... is the source also native 4096X2160? |
Yes
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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where are you getting that source from. is it scaled or do you have something we don't know about?
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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@Diddern, I don't get it… why are you testing CRT's in general??? Why are you interested in CRT and modifications at all? If you say you are looking for the best picture for your own use and already own a VW1000.
I may assume your time is valuable as well why putting so much time in defending YOUR facts.
When I was looking for an upgrade when I owned a Barco 808 LC, I had seen Sony's HW50 and VW1000, JVC's and so on. I really liked the way they preformed. I speak for myself if I say that I liked the improved blacks and find them very close maybe same performance as CRT. Nobody speaks about light output which I found stunning on new HW50 and VW1000 almost too much. Did like the sharpness on digital, Didn't like motion blur, especially on JVC's.
At that time I came in contact with people and had the chance to buy a few Barco 909's. I chose the adventure and don't regret it for a single day. I like to tweak and modify to the best picture I can throw out of it. For me it's almost same fun as watching a movie with friends. I have learned it myself trough all the years. I've med people who I would have never med around all over the world if I didn't step into the adventure. So for me CRT is more then just a nice picture. And for me the differences are not so big digital vs CRT. they both have pro's and con's.
I started with CRT's in 2005 and learned that every 0,5% change can be a big change in the end. At that time I made my own sheimpflug on my Sony 1270 which gave far better focus all over the picture. I will not spending a lot of money on someone who's claiming to have superior modifications with X improvements and so on. I'm interested to know how other experience it. However I know there is some improvements to gain on the video chain of the 909 that I will try to improve myself.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | ElTopo wrote: | | 4096 x 2160 |
Ok, help me out here, if that's the native resolution, then what source is they using here to make such claims... is the source also native 4096X2160? |
I have seen alot of native 4K not movies (only demomaterial and Timescapes), but when I watch movies it is 1080p upscaled to 4K. It is alot better than 1080p and quite close to the native 4K. I the US you can get native 4K movies via the Sony 4K server and VW1000 owners in the US will get this if they upgrade the VW1000 to support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. This will be available in Europe later, but no one knows why because of the different distributors here in Europe are not the same as in the US so it is a problem with who ows the rights to the different movies compared to the US.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | ElTopo wrote: | | 4096 x 2160 |
Ok, help me out here, if that's the native resolution, then what source is they using here to make such claims... is the source also native 4096X2160? |
I have seen alot of native 4K not movies (only demomaterial and Timescapes), but when I watch movies it is 1080p upscaled to 4K. It is alot better than 1080p and quite close to the native 4K. I the US you can get native 4K movies via the Sony 4K server and VW1000 owners in the US will get this if they upgrade the VW1000 to support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. This will be available in Europe later, but no one knows why because of the different distributors here in Europe are not the same as in the US so it is a problem with who ows the rights to the different movies compared to the US. |
I ask because my job installed two of the commercial Sony 4K projectors in a Submarine simulator. They were both being used in a blended setup, that also was using shutter 3D on the front of the lens.
These projectors were originally spec'd for two reasons, one being the setups goal was to use the highest available resolution projector available. The other was because the company fell for what Sony does so well, when it manufactures and sell something you really can't take full advantage of.
In that set, and mainly due to commercial 3D, it would operate at very high refresh rates. And this meant that the projector would have to handle the refresh rates, which it did, but worse it would have to handle 3D and motion at a scaled up resolution. By scaled up, I meant that the source was not the native rate of the projector (it was purchased for future upgrade for this as well). And because of how 3D works at the higher resolutions and refresh rates, the image would suffer from scaled up artifacts being in the image.
I say all this to say, that I'm not sure where you guys are getting that you can scaled up to native 4K and it'll look like film or after scaling you'll get an image with depth and very dimensional, made me wonder what processing was being used. because to scale from native anything of today to native 4K requires an almost super computer to properly map or inter-prelate to pixel to that many pixels during motion. It was a struggle for us, and it was something that even Sony said would not be easy. And that explains why that particular 4K commercial projector was an instant failure.
I'm wondering if Sony is using the same 4K engine and panels in the projector you mentioned.
And so that you'll also know, because I read about it being compared to the JVC, and the JVC did not have a native 4K engine, that may be because JVC knew it did not make sense to manufacture a projector that would not make full use use of it's native engine
Something from on of the reviews:
"Upscaling wonder
Thankfully - crucially, in fact - it shapes up exceedingly well. During previews of the VW1000ES we’d seen obvious unwelcome processing side effects, but these have been almost completely abolished on the finished product. So if you engage the Reality Creation system while watching a Blu-ray, the VW1000ES now adds bags of extra detail, texture and clarity without generating seemingly any unwanted side effects such as motion ‘haloes’, colour striping or unnatural levels of grain or dot crawl. The mind boggles at just how much power Sony has had to throw at its upscaling engine to deliver such high quality results given how many pixels are involved.
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-vpl-vw1000es_Projector_review_more-picture-quality_Page-3#XMmHrDDz8IDwaDTg.99"
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Mike, which specific models of commercial Sony 4k projector are you talking about that were used in the sub simulator?
SC
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