|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| El Duderino wrote: | | more about your camera then your display. |
Ding! What do we have for him Johnny? 
_________________
When I'm asking for a Model number, that doesn't mean I'm asking for a nude photo with your number on it 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| El Duderino wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Because it is not showing black, it shows gray, which means auto exposure never saw black, or anything close enough to black to clamp total black |
I don't agree. It's doesn't matter if the darkest pixel is elevated. The darkest pixel gets clamped to 0,0,0 and becomes the 'black'. To the capture side, RGB 0,0,0 is irrespective of the display involved. |
Do you have any real experience with these cameras, or this just theory.
Because from my experience, that's far from what actually happens. For instance, look over in the screenshot thread, and tell me how many images have 0,0,0 black in them, when the actual reference was elevated. If it does not see black, you're not going to see it on the screen. I've done this way too many times to know from experience what actually happens
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| El Duderino wrote: | | I guess my point is all these screen shots tell me more about your camera then your display. They aren't analog anymore so trying to convey the analog 'goodness' seems moot. Like using the digital internet to try to show how good an analog TT sounds. |
Tell that to the other two guys, because that is also my point, and it's why I don't calibrate my projector for the shots. Nor do I get into things like gamma and color, all for which deals with analog, or quantifying variances. So you're preaching to the wrong person. You must not be paying attention to the thread.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanwn1
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 60
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
The truth hurts for some, for others its a revelation. Evidence is clearly presented , everyone can make their decision and choice. If you are a true videophile, who cares about calibration, colour, greyscale, gamma etc etc, you should know the very obvious error and truth. You will then earn everyone's trust. I myself only switched to a JVC after 8yrs (even previous Gen jvc were not acceptable for me). I did not abandon my CRT, I still play my barco cinemax and to me it is and always a reference source for me whereby i based my calibration for my digital. Does this speak strongly for CRT?
You can have all your calibration and measuring tool but at the end of the day, do you know how exactly colour like blue mixed with cyan (concert lighting shots), or magenta inbetween shades of yellow green looks like? Only a Barco cinemax with correct colour filtering does it with accuracy and i based my calibration of my JVC with this reference.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mp20748 wrote: | Do you have any real experience with these cameras, or this just theory.
Because from my experience, that's far from what actually happens. For instance, look over in the screenshot thread, and tell me how many images have 0,0,0 black in them, when the actual reference was elevated. If it does not see black, you're not going to see it on the screen. I've done this way too many times to know from experience what actually happens |
I have zero experience making camera screen-caps, because I don't think they reveal much and can often lie. I have my share of waltzing through others with a picker measuring pixel triads though from the great BTB and StudioRGB vs sRGB debates on AVS. I have lots of experience making native frame buffer captures measuring black and BTB/WTW pixels in various video caps. I just looked at the last dozen in the screenshot thread and I easily find 0,0,0 in 11 of 12 of them and the 12th I found several 1,1,1s. I couldn't differentiate a 0,0,0 from a 1,1,1 and neither can anyone else, else all of our 8-bit images would appear a contoured mess.
I'm not saying that EVERY image HAS to have 0,0,0 in it as auto-exposure can be turned off, but when I see a photo from a CRT and a digital and they both have 0,0,0 triads in them, and they often do, then I can no longer tell anything about the black level of a given display a camera was pointed at and I suspect a camera auto-exposure clamped both of them to the same 0,0,0 black. All 0,0,0 are the same on my end at that point.
I may be able to see differences in shadow detail, but that's not about black level but rather gamma.
Last edited by El Duderino on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tanwn1 wrote: | The truth hurts for some, for others its a revelation. Evidence is clearly presented , everyone can make their decision and choice. If you are a true videophile, who cares about calibration, colour, greyscale, gamma etc etc, you should know the very obvious error and truth. You will then earn everyone's trust. I myself only switched to a JVC after 8yrs (even previous Gen jvc were not acceptable for me). I did not abandon my CRT, I still play my barco cinemax and to me it is and always a reference source for me whereby i based my calibration for my digital. Does this speak strongly for CRT?
You can have all your calibration and measuring tool but at the end of the day, do you know how exactly colour like blue mixed with cyan (concert lighting shots), or magenta inbetween shades of yellow green looks like? Only a Barco cinemax with correct colour filtering does it with accuracy and i based my calibration of my JVC with this reference. |
Exactly Calvin. you can not tell anything from a CRT unless it is calibrated correctly to REC709 standard. To me that is the #1 most important thing you can do for a CRT FP. Then once that is done play around with other things, but always return to calibration once those changes are made. Sometimes that change may not allow proper calibration
after.
JMO
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd certainly agree that properly calibrated display is critical for fidelity. It's likely another potential problem with camera screen captures. A display with a delta E of <5 can be more accurate over the grayscale and color gamut than many cameras white-balances. Many cameras will attempt to auto color balance or auto white-point adjust, in addition to auto-expose for maximum DR contrast.
On the notion of CRT, gray-scale, and calibration, one of the 'tricks' for better tracking, short of a full-blown CMS LUT, is to purposely defocus the blue channel on a CRT. Purposely defocusing a channel can't be good for overall detail resolving and BW/MTF.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | | tanwn1 wrote: | The truth hurts for some, for others its a revelation. Evidence is clearly presented , everyone can make their decision and choice. If you are a true videophile, who cares about calibration, colour, greyscale, gamma etc etc, you should know the very obvious error and truth. You will then earn everyone's trust. I myself only switched to a JVC after 8yrs (even previous Gen jvc were not acceptable for me). I did not abandon my CRT, I still play my barco cinemax and to me it is and always a reference source for me whereby i based my calibration for my digital. Does this speak strongly for CRT?
You can have all your calibration and measuring tool but at the end of the day, do you know how exactly colour like blue mixed with cyan (concert lighting shots), or magenta inbetween shades of yellow green looks like? Only a Barco cinemax with correct colour filtering does it with accuracy and i based my calibration of my JVC with this reference. |
Exactly Calvin. you can not tell anything from a CRT unless it is calibrated correctly to REC709 standard. To me that is the #1 most important thing you can do for a CRT FP. Then once that is done play around with other things, but always return to calibration once those changes are made. Sometimes that change may not allow proper calibration
after.
JMO
Athanasios |
+1
And I must ad, this is just as imortant for any display when you use it for watching BD movies. And El Duderino here is talking about Delta E under 5, I find that to be very high, my JVC was calibrated with a 3D lut with 4913 points and of corse grayscale and gamma and the total Delta E on all of those was an average of around 0.5. A Delta E error of over 3 can be visible to a trained eye.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
Last edited by Andreas21 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tanwn1 wrote: | The truth hurts for some, for others its a revelation. Evidence is clearly presented , everyone can make their decision and choice. If you are a true videophile, who cares about calibration, colour, greyscale, gamma etc etc, you should know the very obvious error and truth. You will then earn everyone's trust. I myself only switched to a JVC after 8yrs (even previous Gen jvc were not acceptable for me). I did not abandon my CRT, I still play my barco cinemax and to me it is and always a reference source for me whereby i based my calibration for my digital. Does this speak strongly for CRT?
You can have all your calibration and measuring tool but at the end of the day, do you know how exactly colour like blue mixed with cyan (concert lighting shots), or magenta inbetween shades of yellow green looks like? Only a Barco cinemax with correct colour filtering does it with accuracy and i based my calibration of my JVC with this reference. |
A perfectly calibrated JVC or digital that can show rec 709 colorspace correctly is able to show any colorinformation of a BD concert with different lights and colors as the source is mastered at rec 709 with 8 bit color. So if you can not get your JVC to show this you are calibrating it wrong. And Your CRT can not show anyting that is not there.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanwn1
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 60
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Yes i agree, but its always good to have confirmation that both crt n jvc after calibration should look similar colorwise.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tanwn1 wrote: | | Yes i agree, but its always good to have confirmation that both crt n jvc after calibration should look similar colorwise. |
In theory yes, but there are many factors that can affect the results to look different. Probe stability/accuracy, different probe placements, calibrator experience+++
Even if a very experienced calibrator with high end equipment and same probelplacements calibrated two different of the exact make and model, there will always be slight differences on screen even if the results in the report look almost the same. When we talk 2 very different technologys the difference can be bigger and when we take equipment and experience in the equation it can be even bigger. And a calibration with perfect results on paper does not have to look good on screen, if the calibrator does not know what he or she is doing the results on screen can look horrible even if the reports look perfect. I have seen this a couple of times with less experienced calibrators with "bad" equipment.
I have seen a JVC X700 calibrated so badly the picture on screen looked horrible and washed out, the blacks was raised, the white was lovered and the gamma an grayscale looked like sh*t. This was done by a "pro", and when a calibrator does not even know how to set brightness and contrast what does he know then?
I am not saying you do these errors, but the results can differ from projector to projector even if everything is done correctly. i concider calibration to be an art and I always use very experienced calibrators with high end equipment (adjusted and calibrated every year) and the best software on the market to calibrate my projectors, and I am lucky to personally know two of the best here in Norway.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Andreas21 wrote: | | tanwn1 wrote: | | Yes i agree, but its always good to have confirmation that both crt n jvc after calibration should look similar colorwise. |
In theory yes, but there are many factors that can affect the results to look different. Probe stability/accuracy, different probe placements, calibrator experience+++
Even if a very experienced calibrator with high end equipment and same probelplacements calibrated two different of the exact make and model, there will always be slight differences on screen even if the results in the report look almost the same. When we talk 2 very different technologys the difference can be bigger and when we take equipment and experience in the equation it can be even bigger. And a calibration with perfect results on paper does not have to look good on screen, if the calibrator does not know what he or she is doing the results on screen can look horrible even if the reports look perfect. I have seen this a couple of times with less experienced calibrators with "bad" equipment.
I have seen a JVC X700 calibrated so badly the picture on screen looked horrible and washed out, the blacks was raised, the white was lovered and the gamma an grayscale looked like sh*t. This was done by a "pro", and when a calibrator does not even know how to set brightness and contrast what does he know then?
I am not saying you do these errors, but the results can differ from projector to projector even if everything is done correctly. i concider calibration to be an art and I always use very experienced calibrators with high end equipment (adjusted and calibrated every year) and the best software on the market to calibrate my projectors, and I am lucky to personally know two of the best here in Norway. |
Finally something I agree with you on.
A good digital projector requires extensive calibration experience to make it look it's best. And depending on the expertise, the results could be astounding, whereas, with CRT, you can get by using an eyeball calibration on some setupd. And in some cases the eye can be better than any meter, and that's why I also use a Optical Comparator to verify (or see if there is a problem in the room) the final results. This has been a problem on multi-blend setups, where there's a problem getting one or two of the projectors to look right on the screen, when the numbers show they are perfect. The problem always turns out to be some object or reflected light in the room. Tracing that down to either remove or cover it up can take much time and special expertise to get around. Or it can be an reflective surface even when the rear room is painted black. This is a huge problem more so with a digital blend setup and require a lot of tweaking, where as with a CRT, it can be more easily corrected by eye touch-up.
Using cheap point and shoot cameras for screenshots can never show proper color rendition, because the camera will always try and color correct for best white balance. That at times can force a color shift, that may not be visible, but would alter the best calibration done to the setup on the screenshot. That's why I don't waste time calibrating for the shots. And because I also know in order to capture the proper colors you'll need a 3 chip camera. Either way, I don't trust that screenshots could ever be accurate using a point and shoot (or even DSLR) camera for capture.
There are other issues with these cameras. For instance, they can never guarantee they will capture the full IRE range. And that's why almost every shot has either clipping in the whites, or crush in the blacks, when the eyes see perfection on the screen. And any discussions on gamma in sceenshots is a wasted conversation, because the the camera will never have the dynamic range to include the proper gamma. You just have to raise or lower the contrast and brightness for best perceived results. These cameras were not designed to take screenshots, so you get what you get..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mp20748 wrote: | Finally something I agree with you on.
A good digital projector requires extensive calibration experience to make it look it's best. And depending on the expertise, the results could be astounding, whereas, with CRT, you can get by using an eyeball calibration on some setupd. And in some cases the eye can be better than any meter, and that's why I also use a Optical Comparator to verify (or see if there is a problem in the room) the final results. This has been a problem on multi-blend setups, where there's a problem getting one or two of the projectors to look right on the screen, when the numbers show they are perfect. The problem always turns out to be some object or reflected light in the room. Tracing that down to either remove or cover it up can take much time and special expertise to get around. Or it can be an reflective surface even when the rear room is painted black. This is a huge problem more so with a digital blend setup and require a lot of tweaking, where as with a CRT, it can be more easily corrected by eye touch-up.
Using cheap point and shoot cameras for screenshots can never show proper color rendition, because the camera will always try and color correct for best white balance. That at times can force a color shift, that may not be visible, but would alter the best calibration done to the setup on the screenshot. That's why I don't waste time calibrating for the shots. And because I also know in order to capture the proper colors you'll need a 3 chip camera. Either way, I don't trust that screenshots could ever be accurate using a point and shoot (or even DSLR) camera for capture.
There are other issues with these cameras. For instance, they can never guarantee they will capture the full IRE range. And that's why almost every shot has either clipping in the whites, or crush in the blacks, when the eyes see perfection on the screen. And any discussions on gamma in sceenshots is a wasted conversation, because the the camera will never have the dynamic range to include the proper gamma. You just have to raise or lower the contrast and brightness for best perceived results. These cameras were not designed to take screenshots, so you get what you get.. |
I actually think we would agree on many things if we actually met.
But you can never calibrate anything on a projector with the eye as it is impossible. But when it comes to blends it can be done after calibration to get them to look as similar as possible, that is for sure. 
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
Last edited by Andreas21 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:12 am; edited 3 times in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
The biggest problem with you stridvognen is that you are so narrow sighted and to you a digital will always be trash.
I have seen digitals with a smooth grayscale, my X500 after the eeColor calibration has close to it, but of corse not 100% perfect. And I dont think that is possible with a CRT either. What is ringing on the gamma. To me ringing is edge enhancement from addigng to much sharpness, but I have never heard of ringing on the gamma.
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
The biggest problem with you stridvognen is that you are so narrow sighted and to you a digital will always be trash.
I have seen digitals with a smooth grayscale, my X500 after the eeColor calibration has close to it, but of corse not 100% perfect. And I dont think that is possible with a CRT either. What is ringing on the gamma. To me ringing is edge enhancement from addigng to much sharpness, but I have never heard of ringing on the gamma. |
The ringing i Refer to is what happens in betwen 2 correction point on a digital CMS, lets say you have a perfect 21 point grayscale calibration, but when you look at the ramp, you will see you have some fast color shift in betwen these points.
On a crt, if you dont add digital CMS, you have soft gamma shift, so if the gamma is off somewhere it will be in a nice smooth curveshape.
A well tweaked/ calibrated CRT look to me as the best grayscale possible, when the full bit dept is intact, and there is no digital CMS to mess it up.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
The biggest problem with you stridvognen is that you are so narrow sighted and to you a digital will always be trash.
I have seen digitals with a smooth grayscale, my X500 after the eeColor calibration has close to it, but of corse not 100% perfect. And I dont think that is possible with a CRT either. What is ringing on the gamma. To me ringing is edge enhancement from addigng to much sharpness, but I have never heard of ringing on the gamma. |
The ringing i Refer to is what happens in betwen 2 correction point on a digital CMS, lets say you have a perfect 21 point grayscale calibration, but when you look at the ramp, you will see you have some fast color shift in betwen these points.
On a crt, if you dont add digital CMS, you have soft gamma shift, so if the gamma is off somewhere it will be in a nice smooth curveshape.
A well tweaked/ calibrated CRT look to me as the best grayscale possible, when the full bit dept is intact, and there is no digital CMS to mess it up. |
I have not seen this on my latest digitals and I dont think ringing is the right term. The best way to look at the gray scale is to look at a flowing (not sure if this is the right word) without the steps and see if there is banding or colorfringing is present, banding is a big problem with wrongly calibrated gamma and grayscale.
And why do you think the bit depth is not intact? I know Lumagen has some problems with their prosessors and they mess up the color resolution/bit depth and colors near black. I have seen this when I did a serious test of my Lumagen XS, this resulted in me selling it cheap, Lumagen of corse is denying this to be true, but I have seen it on several different Lumagens and different projectors. I now use a eeColor cms with no other prosessing than the cms and it is full 10bit so you dont get any loss of bit depth. Maby you should try a eeColor on your CRT to get the best results??
_________________
http://www.minhembio.com/21Andreas
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanwn1
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 60
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | | Andreas21 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | I have never seen a digital who did a smooth gray scale, meaning that it always do some ringing on the gamma, and some even seems to show that the bit dept gets limited.
Anyone know of a digital who dont have any of these issues.? |
The biggest problem with you stridvognen is that you are so narrow sighted and to you a digital will always be trash.
I have seen digitals with a smooth grayscale, my X500 after the eeColor calibration has close to it, but of corse not 100% perfect. And I dont think that is possible with a CRT either. What is ringing on the gamma. To me ringing is edge enhancement from addigng to much sharpness, but I have never heard of ringing on the gamma. |
The ringing i Refer to is what happens in betwen 2 correction point on a digital CMS, lets say you have a perfect 21 point grayscale calibration, but when you look at the ramp, you will see you have some fast color shift in betwen these points.
On a crt, if you dont add digital CMS, you have soft gamma shift, so if the gamma is off somewhere it will be in a nice smooth curveshape.
A well tweaked/ calibrated CRT look to me as the best grayscale possible, when the full bit dept is intact, and there is no digital CMS to mess it up. |
I hope you are not referring to some ancient or low end digital projectors of a few years back. Please do yourself a favor to view the latest jvc as i believe u have not done so as you think they are all trash.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luuk neele
Joined: 04 Mar 2015
Posts: 186
Location: Wijk bij duurstede, the Netherlands.
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
pointless discussion, everybody seems to be forgetting that the screenshots prove nothing. as you're all watching those on uncalibrated LCD or LED , IPS or STN, or TFT screens.....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|
