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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | This is a 1:1 testpicture that works from 3:3 to 2:2 to 1:1 in little rightangles over the complete screen. You see the vertical and horizontal lines.
It show that 1 pixel on and than 1 pixel off is reproduce with a Marquee 9500 with complet brightness and blackness. So The MTF going through the video chain and the lenses does not get altered. This clearly show that 1080p is 100% resolved almost everywhere on the screen and even at low levels. |
No technology can shot 1080p at 100% MTF and the tech that is furthest from 100% is CRT at around 50%, please shot me a close up of the vertical lines like the one I posted and if it looks like the Samsung I rest my case. I have seen this from many CRTīs posted here, but not so close up and they are very far from the Samsung. I even osted from the VW1000 two years afo but then the discussion was bandwith. 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: |  |
Show a closer with all tubes on.
This is really soft and only the green tube and far from 100% MTF, I am sorry. 
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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A little explanation about MTF.
The 1:1 on 1080p represents a sinus in reality because a sine is the max on the recording material that is because of the nyquist criterium. That your digital makes it a square wave means that it is faking reality. It should filter the edges of the square but it can't.
The camera does not know if it is square or sine. The reproducer should not exceed the camera.
However the MTF is only about the ability to have full white and black on the vertical lines.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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So your desktop looks great but your faces will look enhanced.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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But I wasted enough time now. I should repair my sound system if I want to watch a movie. So have a nice life!
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | A little explanation about MTF.
The 1:1 on 1080p represents a sinus in reality because a sine is the max on the recording material that is because of the nyquist criterium. That your digital makes it a square wave means that it is faking reality. It should filter the edges of the square but it can't.
The camera does not know if it is square or sine. The reproducer should not exceed the camera.
However the MTF is only about the ability to have full white and black on the vertical lines. |
I know what MTF is and I know that CRT can not diplay 1080p at more than around 50%, you tell me is is 100% and no tech can show it at 100%. MTF has alot to do in the picture and I never use my PJ as a desktop it was only to show, but the picture was to small. The vertical lines picture I posted shows MTF at a little over 90% and since you say Your Marquee can show 100% you need to proove it.
Here is a example of how a picture look with low contrast/high resolution high contrast/low resolution and the last high contrast and high resolution, the middle looks like CRT and the last looks like a good digital. And this has a lot to do with MTF.
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | But I wasted enough time now. I should repair my sound system if I want to watch a movie. So have a nice life! |
So you have stoneage soundsystems as well?? Thought all this old tech was indestructable like CRTīs that you never need to fix or throw in the garbage??
Have a nice life! 
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | So your desktop looks great but your faces will look enhanced. |
My face is not enhanced! 
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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They just dig deeper and deeper hehe
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | My God on the digital section someone who bought a x500 says the blacklevel is worse than barco 701!!! No a decent 9 inch is far better than a 701 so these blacks must be absolutely terrible 
Also in the screenshots look at the lack of detail in the face when you zoom. The crt has more resolution somehow the digital throw information away and cant reproduce it. You see all kinds of strange spicks in the fase apearing.
Don't fall for the marketing boys with the flat lifeless boring pics. |
I would have to go back to re-read exactly what the poster was referring to, but you may be correct if he is talking about on/off cr. That does pose the question of what on/off cr ratio is acceptable and that is a preference. Everyone would prefer infinite like an OLED, but with projection every person has to decide what they can live with. I theorized years ago that a lot of CRTers would accept 20k to 1 and I bet that is close. According to Tom Norton your HD350 should produce around 16k to 1. A RS40 should be in the mid 20k to 1 and Kal's RS56 should be in the mid 40k to 1. The new DI enabled JVCs can get multiples of that. There are a number of ex-CRTers that are more than satisfied with their JVCs and its on/off cr.
Now onto MTF. You really don't understand MTF and I suggest you go and read tse's thread that he wrote on the subject. A CRT will never get close to 100 MTF. IIRC a DLP can get somewhere around 90 and LCOS was around 70 to 80. This was years ago and I am sure LCOS has improved on this. IIRC a CRT will be lucky to get 30. I did the test at VDC with a 9500 and an actual MTF measuring device. Again it has been years, but IIRC the MTF didn't rise significantly till the resolution was lowered to something like 1024x768 and even then it wasn't a high number. Of course, this is one of the advantages for the blenders like Nash who can get an appreciably sharper image with two pjs running lower resolutions.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I should also add that I guess this thread length is my fault for originally replying to El Topo. I just thought it was a little disingenuous to knock the JVC and Sony on 4k when a CRT can't do it either. Of course, 4k downscaled on a CRT will probably look better than 1080p, but only time will tell.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I should also add that I guess this thread length is my fault for originally replying to El Topo. I just thought it was a little disingenuous to knock the JVC and Sony on 4k when a CRT can't do it either. Of course, 4k downscaled on a CRT will probably look better than 1080p, but only time will tell. |
About MTF on a 909 CRT i know it's about 30-50 on 1080P
Depend on certified 1080p new sim tubes and mod.
Greg Eisemann says with his mod the MTF will go up 30-50%.
If that is true I will see it and so will you.
But the tecnology has its limitations. So I dubth this.
And I know it's bull.
But when you are a bigmouth with words the only way is to show me.
I be happy to meet Greg and see his fantastic mod.
I have not tried 4K on a CRT, but i will think that it only be softer than 1080P so what is the use?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | My God on the digital section someone who bought a x500 says the blacklevel is worse than barco 701!!! No a decent 9 inch is far better than a 701 so these blacks must be absolutely terrible
Also in the screenshots look at the lack of detail in the face when you zoom. The crt has more resolution somehow the digital throw information away and cant reproduce it. You see all kinds of strange spicks in the fase apearing.
Don't fall for the marketing boys with the flat lifeless boring pics. |
I would have to go back to re-read exactly what the poster was referring to, but you may be correct if he is talking about on/off cr. That does pose the question of what on/off cr ratio is acceptable and that is a preference. Everyone would prefer infinite like an OLED, but with projection every person has to decide what they can live with. I theorized years ago that a lot of CRTers would accept 20k to 1 and I bet that is close. According to Tom Norton your HD350 should produce around 16k to 1. A RS40 should be in the mid 20k to 1 and Kal's RS56 should be in the mid 40k to 1. The new DI enabled JVCs can get multiples of that. There are a number of ex-CRTers that are more than satisfied with their JVCs and its on/off cr.
Now onto MTF. You really don't understand MTF and I suggest you go and read tse's thread that he wrote on the subject. A CRT will never get close to 100 MTF. IIRC a DLP can get somewhere around 90 and LCOS was around 70 to 80. This was years ago and I am sure LCOS has improved on this. IIRC a CRT will be lucky to get 30. I did the test at VDC with a 9500 and an actual MTF measuring device. Again it has been years, but IIRC the MTF didn't rise significantly till the resolution was lowered to something like 1024x768 and even then it wasn't a high number. Of course, this is one of the advantages for the blenders like Nash who can get an appreciably sharper image with two pjs running lower resolutions. |
I think I read somewhere the new gen JVC was as high as 98%, but that seems a little high to me. The RS 35 was rated at around 92% vertical MTF and 79% at horizontal MTF. The X500/700/900 is better and maby the 98% number is from the vertical and it totals around 90%+.
A friend of mine who is concidered a CRT guru here in Norway made a MTF test some years ago and the best result they could get was around 50% on the horisontal MTF at 1080p. Total MTF at between 30-50%.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | My God on the digital section someone who bought a x500 says the blacklevel is worse than barco 701!!! No a decent 9 inch is far better than a 701 so these blacks must be absolutely terrible
Also in the screenshots look at the lack of detail in the face when you zoom. The crt has more resolution somehow the digital throw information away and cant reproduce it. You see all kinds of strange spicks in the fase apearing.
Don't fall for the marketing boys with the flat lifeless boring pics. |
I would have to go back to re-read exactly what the poster was referring to, but you may be correct if he is talking about on/off cr. That does pose the question of what on/off cr ratio is acceptable and that is a preference. Everyone would prefer infinite like an OLED, but with projection every person has to decide what they can live with. I theorized years ago that a lot of CRTers would accept 20k to 1 and I bet that is close. According to Tom Norton your HD350 should produce around 16k to 1. A RS40 should be in the mid 20k to 1 and Kal's RS56 should be in the mid 40k to 1. The new DI enabled JVCs can get multiples of that. There are a number of ex-CRTers that are more than satisfied with their JVCs and its on/off cr.
Now onto MTF. You really don't understand MTF and I suggest you go and read tse's thread that he wrote on the subject. A CRT will never get close to 100 MTF. IIRC a DLP can get somewhere around 90 and LCOS was around 70 to 80. This was years ago and I am sure LCOS has improved on this. IIRC a CRT will be lucky to get 30. I did the test at VDC with a 9500 and an actual MTF measuring device. Again it has been years, but IIRC the MTF didn't rise significantly till the resolution was lowered to something like 1024x768 and even then it wasn't a high number. Of course, this is one of the advantages for the blenders like Nash who can get an appreciably sharper image with two pjs running lower resolutions. |
+1
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think its ready for you guys
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I just thought it was a little disingenuous to knock the JVC and Sony on 4k when a CRT can't do it either |
A 4K JVC was never mentioned in this thread, at least not by me. I have no experience with an native panel 4K JVC, though I did install and setup one a few years ago. But never evaluated anything 4K on it.
So unlike the other guys, I'm not speaking on projector technology I know nothing about or have zero experience with.
The comments from me dealt specifically with the Sony. And those comments were about the use of an native panel 4K projector using 1080P source. Now this I can comment on, because I have experience with two Sony $100,000 commercial 4K projectors. And I'm basing my comment on my experience with the imbedded scaler they use. And would find it hard to believe the 100K commercial projectors would have a worse scaler than the consumer ones.
My experience in the commercial world also found that an out board scaler was better, but they cost around $40,000.00
Either way and again, scaling up 1080P to 4k is not a good journey for an HD signal. It makes you hate your job when you're the one standing in front of the customer, and having to explain why the image is doing what it is after they spent the big bucks
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | I just thought it was a little disingenuous to knock the JVC and Sony on 4k when a CRT can't do it either |
A 4K JVC was never mentioned in this thread, at least not by me. I have no experience with an native panel 4K JVC, though I did install and setup one a few years ago. But never evaluated anything 4K on it.
So unlike the other guys, I'm not speaking on projector technology I know nothing about or have zero experience with.
The comments from me dealt specifically with the Sony. And those comments were about the use of an native panel 4K projector using 1080P source. Now this I can comment on, because I have experience with two Sony $100,000 commercial 4K projectors. And I'm basing my comment on my experience with the imbedded scaler they use. And would find it hard to believe the 100K commercial projectors would have a worse scaler than the consumer ones.
My experience in the commercial world also found that an out board scaler was better, but they cost around $40,000.00
Either way and again, scaling up 1080P to 4k is not a good journey for an HD signal. It makes you hate your job when you're the one standing in front of the customer, and having to explain why the image is doing what it is after they spent the big bucks |
You are talking trash about the VW1000/1100 here all the time how bad the picture is on that machine and since it is a 4K machine it has to be crap as long as it is fed a 1080p source. And you are doing the same now with the X500.
So I think you speak a lot about projector tech you know nothing about and have no experience with. I have owned the VW1000/1100 for three years and know a lot about it, now I own a JVC X500 and I know alot about it. You have not seen either and still you say your CRT will wipe the floor with both.
I donīt have much experience with CRT, but I have seen a 909 side by side with different digitals including the X500 and I only say what I saw on screen. I have also seen other different CRTīs.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: |
About MTF on a 909 CRT i know it's about 30-50 on 1080P |
On a CRT the MTF would be much better that faster the video chain of course. And in comparison to Greg's I know nothing about. But I can put an 300mhz video chain my my Marquee, and for sure that would GREATLY improve on the MTF (and you can confirm this with Scott @ VDC).
I've had quite a few experts comment that my projector must have very good MTF. I've never measured it nor find it necessary to do so.
For an analog chain, bandwidth and Speed would be the markers. I have a video chain that I can install in my Marquee that has a flatness (not -3db) bandwidth near 160mhz -- meaning it's a super fast video chain that will surely have a higher MTF
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreas21 wrote: |
You are talking trash about the VW1000/1100 here all the time how bad the picture is on that machine and since it is a 4K machine it has to be crap as long as it is fed a 1080p source. And you are doing the same now with the X500.
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Show me where I spoke negative about the JVC?
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Andreas21
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Diddern wrote: |
About MTF on a 909 CRT i know it's about 30-50 on 1080P |
On a CRT the MTF would be much better that faster the video chain of course. And in comparison to Greg's I know nothing about. But I can put an 300mhz video chain my my Marquee, and for sure that would GREATLY improve on the MTF (and you can confirm this with Scott @ VDC).
I've had quite a few experts comment that my projector must have very good MTF. I've never measured it nor find it necessary to do so.
For an analog chain, bandwidth and Speed would be the markers. I have a video chain that I can install in my Marquee that has a flatness (not -3db) bandwidth near 160mhz -- meaning it's a super fast video chain that will surely have a higher MTF |
Please post a picture of the vertcal lines 1:1 with all tubes on , and if you get the chance measure the MTF. I will be surpriced if it is higher than 50%.
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