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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy112 wrote: | Nice speakers ray!!, are the klipschorns as good as what I have heard about them? I have a really old pair of ElectroVoice Sentry IV speakers im restoring, I don't have plans to use them in the house, there simply isn't enough room for them here. I'll be selling them eventually, but not before I get my enjoyment from them. Your Altecs I saw in the pics remind me of them a bit.
Excellent setup  |
Compared to the Altecs the Klipsch are uncolored, very transparent, I chose the LaScalas because of their reputation, efficiency, and they are more flexible for positioning than their big brothers which have to face the corner.
It has taken me about 35 years so far to put this system together. It would break me to have to do it all at once. It is and probably always will be a work in progress; a hobby on it's own. I suspect I'm in good company here.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 416ray4538 wrote: | If there was one right way and all other ways were wrong We'd all want the same equipment.
<snip> In spite of theories specs and measurements it still comes down to what you like and what you're using them for. A very clever fellow once said " Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters" |
Absolutely. That was somewhat my point (albeit tangential) of my original post. It wasn't at all to say "horns are bad", which is I think the way ro_co took my post. To be quite honest, if my room would accommodate it, my front wall would probably look more like yours than the way mine looks now, though it would probably be more DIY-oriented and smaller-scale. The only thing I took any issue with was that somehow it wasn't as "hifi" if you weren't using big commercial PA speakers, since those speakers create potential issues, too - especially if the room isn't treated - if for no other reason, because their physical size creates problems with proximity to walls or ceilings.
| 416ray4538 wrote: | | Your ears and your personal preference are the only things that matter when picking speakers. |
Not only your ears and your preference, but also what you listen to, how you listen, your room, your budget, and your priorities. All that stuff matters and impacts the choices we make.
I was thinking about trying Some Klipsch KG 5's, but I'd really like to have matched LCR's. Tall towers just won't work under my screen, so I've been kicking around some DIY two-ways like the Fusion 12. I could sell my current mains for around $500, and only be out a little over $500 if I ended up liking them. That's crazy cheap. It'll barely buy one decent bookshelf type monitor from a major manufacturer.
I might trying building a smaller set, first - maybe the Alpha-8 Minion - to see how I like the process and the end result. I've heard some really good things from people that have tried it, so I'm very tempted.
SC
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Well, I see the resident expert on everything, aka "the "hyperbole master extraordinaire", has now checked in.
Judas Priest, Steve. Here we go again. I said (and I quote), "A lot of the large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces". I didn't say all horns, or most horns, or even many horns... I said, "A lot of the large prosound horns... I stand by that!
I have no interest in debating your thesis line-by-line and engaging in a multi-hour debate with you, but I will say that you're selectively choosing and leaving out facts when they're convenient to prove your hyperbolic idea, essentially that horns are wonderful and direct radiators are junk. You refer to "studio" horns when nobody said anything about studio horns. You refer to large multi-speaker arrays, I assume to prove that horns have narrow directivity, when in reality arrays are used both to cover a larger area and increase overall system output.
I'm well-aware of the theory of controlled-directivity, and how the horns work. Apparently you missed the fact that Ray and I were talking about large commercial horns, not just all horns general. Commercial horns ARE designed be used in large spaces, and do have a pretty large dispersion pattern. A 90-degree dispersion angle isn't what I would call "narrow". Further, many direct radiators have dispersion patterns very similar to horns at the frequencies that matter.
Then, you bring up the red herrings of efficiency and heat. Of course CDs and horns are more efficient. Much more so, in fact. Nobody said they weren't. But, again... At normal listening levels, in the typical rooms we use around here, even good bookshelf speakers connected to a decent receiver are perfectly capable of producing good, low-distortion sound. That's not the system I have or want, but many systems like that are certainly capable of good, low-distortion sound at normal listening levels.
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | Regarding your 1000 hp car analogy: I would say any comparison of good direct radiator speakers to good horn based speaker is more like comparing a 1930 biplane with an F-22 Raptor. The gulf in technology and performance between the two is that huge. You are more than welcome to putt around in your quaint wood and fabric airplane, goggles and scarf and all. |
Wow, so all the high-end direct radiator speakers from Wilson, JM Labs, Magico, or even more "mundane" direct radiators like Kal's Paradigms, Focal, and B&W are all 1930's biplanes (complete with goggles and scarf), while JBL compression drivers and horns from the 60's or 70's are F-22 Raptors. Yeah, OK Steve. You have wild hyperbole down to an art form.
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | The real reasons why HT buffs don't use horn speakers is 1.) Technical ignorance, and 2.) Cost. A single studio grade wide bandwidth compression driver can cost $1500 alone. A good horn to go on it is nearly as much. A JBL 2226 woofer is $450. This translates to a very expensive speaker, even if you design and build it yourself. A manufactured speaker with such parts costs a fortune. |
Ah, there it is again... mr_ro_co is über-smart and educated, while everybody else is ignorant.  The fact that people don't use CD's and horns is all because they're expensive and people are ignorant. It has nothing to do with the typical size of the cabinets relative to the room, or that many of our front stages are simply too small for three multi-cubic foot cabinets (especially with non-AT setups common with CRT), or that yes - the directivity of many commercial horns (often designed for large spaces and yes - wide dispersion) really isn't appropriate for what are typically tiny residential "bonus" rooms, bedrooms, and small rec-rooms, often with adjacent surfaces mere feet from the horn mouth, driver cone, or baffle.
I'm guessing the center 902 is mated to an 811B. Can somebody explain to me how that sounds anything even remotely "hi-fi" sitting right on a hardwood floor? How about the big mains essentially adjacent to a side wall?
Much, much respect to Ray for doing something big and awesome, but I'm seeing just as many (big) acoustic drawbacks to that setup as I see advantages. Again, much respect, but there is more to good sound than high-efficience and low distortion. Reflections and reverberation are distortion, too.
If I ever have a significant amount of disposable income, I'd love to do a big, spacious HT with seating for like 15 or 20, and horn-loaded CD speakers for a really big sound... But, it would certainly be in a fully-treated room. There are some great DIY CD designs I'd like to try building... But, again... For what I'd want, they're too large, and my room is too small. Wait, no it's because I'm just too poor and too ignorant.
SC |
Steve,
Predictably your response relies on snide, dismissive derision whenever you are corrected about things of which you clearly only have a very basic understanding. Clear evidence of this are your assertions regarding conventional speakers in residential rooms being “more than adequate to reproduce very accurate, low distortion, high fidelity sound,” then claim that you can push your bookshelf speakers to 100 dB with “no distortion.”
I don’t even know where to begin with this level of uniformed ignorance speaking so authoritatively, so I just ignored these in my first reply.
You then stated that “a lot of large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces.” First of all, “a lot” is generally synonymous with “many,” even implying “most” in some contexts. Second, you are in fact completely wrong in your statement, and it reveals “a lot” about your limited understanding on this subject. That you then go on to claim that you are “well-aware of the theory of controlled-directivity, and how the horns work” is laughable. It is abundantly clear you do not. As I have already explained, your bookshelf speakers are much wider dispersion than even small horn based speakers, let alone large ones. So if your concern was to limit early boundary reflections, your speakers will produce much more of them than any horn speaker will. And as I stated in my first reply to you:
“The need being met by these large horns is projecting clear sound over a very specific, distant and resulting large area. This requires efficiency, power, and controlled directivity. Not ‘wide dispersion.'”
Please carefully read that many times and maybe eventually you’ll get it. I also note you seized on my mention of a 90 degrees horizontal angle in reference to refraction loading in a constant directivity horn, but fail to give the context I provided: SMALL HF horns. And even then, their dispersion is often only over a relatively narrow frequency band. Bottom line, usable radiated output of even small horns is quite directional compared to your dome tweeter equipped bookshelf speakers.
So, the directivity of “many commercial horns” is often designed for large spaces and wide dispersion? Ah, that would be no. In fact, they have far more narrow dispersion than conventional speakers, particularly vertically. And “designed” for large spaces? Actually they are in reality the only real choice for large spaces since only horns have the efficiency to project the acoustic power needed as well as focus that energy over a specific area, which of course they would not be able to do at distance if they were “wide dispersion.” For all your talk of the importance of reflections in residential settings, you are blissfully ignorant about how vastly more important controlling reflections is in large venues, which is done by controlling dispersion, not promoting it.
Then you go on to your next major display of ignorance, your off-hand dismissal of the high efficiency of horn based speakers as something that simply goes to waste in a residential setting, and even after having the awesome difference in efficiency explained to you (.2% vs. 30%, a 150 fold difference – which I note you carefully omitted in your reply), you are now shrugging it off again calling it a “red herring.” Do you even know what that means? Are you honestly saying that the thermal compression that results in your speakers at 100 dB (let alone all the other myriad shrieking distortions they produce at that SPL) is irrelevant to the discussion of why it could possibly be desirable to employ horn speakers in small settings? Please. Please tell me that you are actually claiming that zero thermal compression and very, very low distortion are not relevant reasons for choosing horn speakers for a residential setting. Or that the huge advantage of horns in dynamic inflection, i.e., dynamic range doesn’t matter, because your abysmally inefficient speakers, which convert 99.8% (!) of their input energy as heat are totally linear, right?
So, sorry. You are completely, painfully wrong on both of these two key attributes of horn speakers.
Then because I replace your bad car analogy with a much better one you moan snarkily that I am being hyperbolic. What’s your retort? Name dropping! Magico. Wilson Audio. JM Labs. Names that you utter in a reverent, hushed tone, right? That you invoke these grotesquely overpriced low tech polished turds pretty much says it all, Steve. It really is all I need to know about where you stand in your current knowledge of the subject of loudspeaker acoustics and technology. News for you. Biplanes. Yes, made of nice modern materials, but still biplanes. You can make that prop out of carbon fiber and the body out of other exotic polymers and composites, but at the end of the day, it’s still a biplane, with notable but still only modest improvements over the limitations of the originals.
And yes, a 70’s compression driver does have F-22 performance compared to even current generation direct radiator drivers. Really. And modern compression drivers? Even more so.
By the way, you refer a lot to CD horns in your post. I merely referenced them regarding their dispersion characteristics to show how wrong you are. And I never critiqued the OP’s use of older horns nor do I give a sh*t that he puts HF horns on the floor. And yes, the main reasons why guys like you don’t use horns is out of ignorance and cost (and a failure of imagination). You’ve shown your ignorance on this subject abundantly. There are many very nice small format studio grade horn speakers that are ideally suited for home theater. For you to claim that the main reason home theaters don’t use horns is because no one has room for them merely furthers your display of ignorance.
And for the record, I never said nor even think that high quality conventional direct radiator speakers are crap. It’s just that the difference in technology and performance between them and a horn based approach is huge, with the latter’s attributes making them even more desirable in a home theater setting than in sound reinforcement applications.
So run along now and return with one your usual nasty indignant rebuttals.
Best regards,
Steve
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
Read your posts, and answer one question for me... If one is to read your massive posts which are essentially about all the negatives of direct radiators and the superiority of horns... The horribly deleterious effects of wide dispersion, inefficiency, and thermal compression - all associated with direct radiators... How could they NOT conclude that you're saying they are far, far inferior to horns in every respect - in effect crap? All those dozens of designers and companies building and marketing direct radiators are all stupid, or just scamming the ignorant masses, because horns are just so much better, how could anybody NOT use them?
Oh, and my rebuttals are "nasty" and "indignant"? Yeah, OK Steve. Anybody reading your posts between the lines can see that they often read, "You're an ignorant f*cking moron, so I'll now write a small thesis to crush you and anyone else who may have a different opinion with my far superior knowledge."
SC
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I did say "the ambition of Hi-Fi" not "The goal of "Hi-Fi". Goal implies that it is achievable which it almost is if one sticks to a narrow range of listening. I have yet to hear a system that could confuse a serious listener into believing he/she is actually there. There are lots that come real close, but a system that does a fine job on your favorite a cappella vocalist will quickly reveal its shortcomings on Deep Purple or Judas Priest and visa versa. There may one or 2 systems out there that can do it all but I haven't heard them and they will be out of reach for all but a lottery winner which qualifies as a shortcoming on its own.
I was just curious if others had taken the same approach as me.
Speaking of curious:
Why is it that when it comes to processing, its bad for audio but good for video?
The ambition of both is realism isn't it?
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When the first clock was invented, how did they know what time to set it to?
No point being pessimistic; it probably would't work anyway.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Steve,
Read your posts, and answer one question for me... If one is to read your massive posts which are essentially about all the negatives of direct radiators and the superiority of horns... The horribly deleterious effects of wide dispersion, inefficiency, and thermal compression - all associated with direct radiators... How could they NOT conclude that you're saying they are far, far inferior to horns in every respect - in effect crap? All those dozens of designers and companies building and marketing direct radiators are all stupid, or just scamming the ignorant masses, because horns are just so much better, how could anybody NOT use them? |
Okay, I reread my posts like you told me to. You are inferring way too much, maybe because you took my response as a personal attack on your choice of speakers. Massive? Well, they convey a fair amount of information, so they have requisite length. Sorry if that ends up being too long for you. And you are seriously misrepresenting what I've said. "Horrible, deleterious..." And you accuse me of hyperbole! I used no such terms to characterize direct radiator speakers. I patiently and systematically explained their dispersion differences compared to horns and then addressed your claim that the SPL capability of horns is wasted in a residential setting. That second claim dismissed completely a huge difference between horns and direct radiators that encompasses most of the reasons the former as a class far exceed the performance limitations of the latter, so I found that in particular need of being addressed. So I offered an analogy I think is more apt. And in my descriptions I specifically pointed out that direct radiator speakers are more neutral that CD horns due to the latter's often severe waveform distortion which always yields uneven frequency response and other spectral problems. You clearly missed that part. I would never recommend the use of CD horns for home theater. I merely said their controlled dispersion would lend itself well to home theater. It certainly works with large format horns in full sized theaters, and they usually sound pretty good, too, at least the large format JBLs do, wouldn't you agree? And as colored as those are, I'd still take them any day over some high end stuff like the brands you referred to, mainly because I personally value dynamics over neutrality.
It's not that makers of direct radiators are scamming anyone or don't know what they are doing. Direct radiator speakers meet most needs and are far cheaper and can be made very compact, which is what most people need. Good quality ones do indeed sound very good and can be had quite economically. None of this changes the gulf in performance that exists between quality direct radiator vs. quality compression driver/horn technology.
Your analogy still applies, but not in the way you used it. A 1000HP car would not be wasted on me. To me that means passing power that I would exercise regularly to punch around people who won't yield in the fast lane. It has nothing to do with getting to and maintaining very high velocity. I still think my analogy is better. There is absolutely nothing wrong or low quality about a nice biplane. It's just that an F-22 will make mincemeat out of it. 
| ecrabb wrote: | Oh, and my rebuttals are "nasty" and "indignant"? Yeah, OK Steve. Anybody reading your posts between the lines can see that they often read, "You're an ignorant f*cking moron, so I'll now write a small thesis to crush you and anyone else who may have a different opinion with my far superior knowledge."
SC |
I think you think this because you typically react so badly to being corrected after you've been talking out of your ass. You need to carefully contemplate this quality of yours. You really wail like a petulant child in such situations and then blow things out of proportion. Part of it is no doubt due my critiques of your socio/economic/political views in past exchanges, so you don't like me and really don't like being corrected by me. But I'm pretty sure I usually pull my punches with you until you start getting really nasty in your indignant responses. You really need to work on that.
Best,
Steve
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BGSPCS
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 115
Location: Pottstown, PA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm actually doing some testing with PA speakers for use in a 7.1 setup coupled with the new Zenith 1200x that i bought from Curt  I just got in a pair of Vue Audiotechnic IClass 4.5 speakers, and these are probably the cleanest little installation speakers i have heard. It does seem to take a bit of power to drive them with the receiver I have now.
I'm planning on getting the Onkyo TX-NR828, at which point I will do more testing with the VUE speakers. I may end up using the 4.5's for surround and using either the dual 4.5's or 6" models for the front LCR channels.
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Pottstown PA
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Curt,
I've heard that horn before in Okinawa in a big custom WHW system with amps powered by a bank of car batteries. That was over 20 years ago now!
As I'm sure you know, Fostex still has an extensive line of excellent pro drivers and horns. Fostex gained a lot more visibility over the past ten years or so in the US with the interest in their full range cone drivers, which are excellent alternatives to the uber-expensive Lowthers and the like.
For Japanese pro gear, I prefer TAD, who makes probably the best compression drivers in existence. I have a pair of TAD-2001s I've had slated for a high end monitor, but have never found time to complete it.
Yeah, you made a bad mistake getting rid of those 30" woofs. I have a buddy in Seattle who has a pair of those. They only need about 1 Watt to produce floor shaking bass, and it's some of the "fastest," cleanest bass I've ever heard and effortlessly goes down in to the teens without any bloat, boom or overhang.
Yeah, you just didn't know what you had at the time!
Steve
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VancouverSound
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: BIG HT... Done it !! |
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Before the word "RAVE" was invented I was doing raves... I was a pioneer... I owned everything, including lighting, trussing, chain blocks and trucks... One afternoon about 27 years ago or so (before home-theatre) I did home theatre in stereo with rear speakers with the sole intention of emulating the theatre experience, but better. Sadly I had a 26" TV BUT:
I used JBL 4520's for FOH with JBL 2390/2445's for mid/high and JBL 2405's for super-high. The 2390's must be mounted on baffle boards in order to make the lenses work properly and I also mounted the 2405's in the same board. I already had them in cases ready to go. Ideally, the 2395 would be better but at the time I owned 6 2390's and a pair of clones so I went with 4 of those. I also had hoards of loose JBL compression drivers, horns, woofers, altec cabinets and other jizz cuz I was addicted and I was doing night club installations and renting to the other DJ's in town (Ottawa, Canada)... and yes, I had a pair of 4520's living in my basement... I don't recommend it to anyone that's not on steroids... Whoever helps you remove them will never speak to you again.
At the rear I used a pair of JBL 4530's with the same horn and tweeter setup... I actually owned 10 4530's loaded with 2225's too
I used two BSS 410 (or is it 310?) electronic crossovers (one for each channel) that for some reason I had sitting around NIB... I remember wondering why I had them and why they were NIB. Those crossovers are fantastic not just for their renowned quality but that specific model has dial-in crossover frequencies and attenuation as well as the other standard BSS features. 410's are only good if you have a sealed rack or no kids because of the exposed and comfortable rubbery knobs. They are a 2-way stereo / 3-way mono crossover.
I used a Klark-Teknic DN-360 dual 30 (not 31) band eq for the entire system and 3 Bryston 4B's, 2 Crown DC-300's and 2 Crown DC-150's for power; every woofer was on a separate channel of a 4B, each horn was on a separate channel of a DC-300 and each slot tweeter was on a separate channel of a DC-150.
I ran 6 microphone type cables from the front to the back to send L&R Low/Mid/High to the rear amps. I built them by hand specifically for the application... In a perfect world I would have run just L&R to the back and had two more crossovers there but the BSS were so amazing and besides I had spools of cable that could be re-used later. I did have alternatives though... I had a Loft 403 crossover which is a 3 way stereo / 5 way mono crossover and gaggle of JBL 5234 crossovers with various cards... The BSS were calling to me
The front and back speakers sounded the same on the mids and highs as you would expect because they were identical components but the 4520's reached about 20 Hz lower (if memory serves me, 4520's reach 25 Hz and 4530's reach 45 Hz but my memory is as bad as my hearing) due to 1. the coupling of two transducers and 2. the larger cabinet volume... not my hearing... that's bad because of all those speakers and amps and nothing to do with my time but blast music
I put my couch in the center of all of this and cranked up Star Wars It BLEW MY MIND... I invited everyone over !!
The 8'5" height of the ceiling in my basement made the SPL off the hook and that setup with such a low ceiling put to shame basically every nightclub in the world at the time and the movie experience was better than any theatre too. Life was good at that moment.
I'll do it again on a permanent basis but next time I'll do it from scratch with equipment purchased specifically for the application... I think I want to go with Altec 817's too and Vanencias on top and 2 Altec 18" subs per stack... I'll probably tweak that when I think about it some more and adjust for 5.1 or higher.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hey VancouverSound, you're not affiliated with MasterPlan Productions, are you?
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VancouverSound
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Nope... I'm new in Vancouver and haven't made contact with anyone in sound and lighting and back in Ottawa I ran Sumner Audio. In that capacity I ran "The Party Arnie Show", rented gear to DJ's, installed night club systems, DJed at schools and bars and after I disbanded Sumner Audio I began DJing in strip bars... In Ontario and Quebec that's a huge industry... not like Vancouver where there's 2 strip bars in a city of 3,000,000.
I also worked for Wall Sound and PSL in Ottawa as well as NASCO which did concert productions at the Corell Center. I did some FOH work too but not too much... oh yah, I did lighting at Grand Central in the late 80's.
I probably won't get back into sound and lighting but I'll definitely build a killer theatre and I would like to get some 35 mil projection equipment too... but that's down the road.
Are you in the Vancouver area or the Ottawa area?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm in Vancouver, Langley, actually. Give me a shout any time at (604) 514-1751. I'm out of town for 11 days as of tomorrow, but am back after April 3 or 4.
Vancouver was THE happening strip bar town for the longest time, that's how this website got started in fact. I was the guy installing all the Zenith CRT projectors into all of them! the ones I didn't install, I serviced, then found the internet, and ebay, and found the high end CRT projectors that many of us are using.
I've heard of Wall Sound, but haven't been in Ottawa since 1983.
Cheers!
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