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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: Anyone else using PA speakers for their HT |
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The ambition of Hi-Fi is to get as close to the original performance as you can and without the presence (volume) of a live performance there's just something missing. Am I alone in this approach?
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Curt Palme
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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That's a pretty complex question I guess it depends what you're looking for.
In my opinion pro PA speakers are not so much about hi-fi as they are about projecting sound and High volume levels to large audiences.
If you want High SPL in a home theater then yes pro PA speakers are a good way to go, But for accurate sound I would go with efficient home theater speakers.
<edit> Sorry, voice to text translation didn't go so well with Siri, corrected. 
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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From reading spec sheets I assume that amplifier distortion measurements are taken at rated power output. At levels comfortably below rated, the differences (not all differences )between amplifiers should be less. An efficient speaker is obviously easier for an amplifier to drive so the shortcomings of most amplifiers should be less obvious.
No/Yes?
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Curt Palme
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but most PA speakers have horns for the high end. They go for volume, not clarity. Give me a nice dome tweeter any day over a horn. To make most horns sound good, you need an eq behind them, sometimes with some pretty drastic eq curves.
one exception is Cliff's Klipsch, which I believe are horn high end. they sound pretty good, and are hellishly efficient. A low end PA box like a Peavey with a piezo tweeter horn sound like absolute CRAP!
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm using horns also for front centre and front surround. At first they're a little colored and I guess my ears have learned to like them. To me they sound sweet and strong. Bass are Altec 817 with 2 515-8BHP. Mid are Altec 94 with the 291 motors. Tweets are Altec 902. Front surrounds are tri-amped.
Front centre is 2 Altec 816 + 1 Altec 515 front centre is bi-amped.
Rear surrounds are Klipch LaScala I think the efficiency is rated 105.
Subwoofer Is Altec 8182; about the size of a smartcar with 18 in driver. I don't remember the efficient rating
Efficiency for the surrounds is 108 for mid. 107 for woofers
Total power about 3000 w. Or would be at 8 ohms. I changed the mid diaphragms for 16 ohms and the woofer drivers are in series so 16 ohms also.
My SPL Meter stops at 125. I haven't found the need to see how loud it will go.
I have never taken this setup to where I get clipping. I never hear any symptoms of amplifiers working hard. It just gets louder and louder.
One of my co- workers was telling me about his subwoofer: he said it will make a piece of paper move. Mine makes my couch move.
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Curt Palme
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so seriously, why are you asking advice from a rookie like me? You have it all covered.
Nice setup!!!! Super efficient.. are you on an acreage? Eviction party, anyone? 
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Not looking for advice as such. Just playing; wondering if there a very many with a similar approach.
Acreage yes 3
Used to live in a subdivision; neighbours said they were "aware" when I had it turned on. Nice people ,never complained.
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| 416ray4538 wrote: | | The ambition of Hi-Fi is to get as close to the original performance as you can and without the presence (volume) of a live performance there's just something missing. Am I alone in this approach? |
First of all, high-efficiency prosound compression drivers can not only create "live" SPLs in small spaces, they can easily create SPL's that can permanently damage your hearing - in less time than it takes to play a single song. Significant caution should be exercised. If you're listening to anything at even 115 dB without hearing protection, you're ruining your ears.
Next, in the vast majority of residential rooms, mid-size monitors are more than adequate to reproduce very accurate, low-distortion, high-fidelity sound well into the SPL range where nobody should be listening to it for any length of time. I have M&K THX Select monitors - essentially bookshelf speakers - and in my treated room, I can push the system to over 100dB with no distortion, a level I shouldn't be listening to for more than a couple of songs.
All that said, compression drivers can certainly sound very good for HT. I've become particularly fond of them in the last couple of years - especially JTR's. Could be my age - maybe age-induced reduced HF sensitivity.
But, whether they'll sound good or not will depend on the specific horns in question, and also how well the room is treated. A lot of the large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces, which generally isn't a good thing in a small space. Wide dispersion means a lot of early reflections, which affects clarity, imaging, and localization.
In my experience, very, very few rooms are treated well enough to handle large monitors and high SPL's - so all that high-SPL capability just goes to waste.
I think commercial prosound speakers in a small residential space is a bit like a 1000HP car on the street; you can't really use much of the capability, and if you try without having the proper space and training to do it, you'll most likely just get hurt and break sh*t. 
SC
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | 416ray4538 wrote: | | The ambition of Hi-Fi is to get as close to the original performance as you can and without the presence (volume) of a live performance there's just something missing. Am I alone in this approach? |
First of all, high-efficiency prosound compression drivers can not only create "live" SPLs in small spaces, they can easily create SPL's that can permanently damage your hearing - in less time than it takes to play a single song. Significant caution should be exercised. If you're listening to anything at even 115 dB without hearing protection, you're ruining your ears.
Next, in the vast majority of residential rooms, mid-size monitors are more than adequate to reproduce very accurate, low-distortion, high-fidelity sound well into the SPL range where nobody should be listening to it for any length of time. I have M&K THX Select monitors - essentially bookshelf speakers - and in my treated room, I can push the system to over 100dB with no distortion, a level I shouldn't be listening to for more than a couple of songs.
All that said, compression drivers can certainly sound very good for HT. I've become particularly fond of them in the last couple of years - especially JTR's. Could be my age - maybe age-induced reduced HF sensitivity.
But, whether they'll sound good or not will depend on the specific horns in question, and also how well the room is treated. A lot of the large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces, which generally isn't a good thing in a small space. Wide dispersion means a lot of early reflections, which affects clarity, imaging, and localization.
In my experience, very, very few rooms are treated well enough to handle large monitors and high SPL's - so all that high-SPL capability just goes to waste.
I think commercial prosound speakers in a small residential space is a bit like a 1000HP car on the street; you can't really use much of the capability, and if you try without having the proper space and training to do it, you'll most likely just get hurt and break sh*t.
SC |
Thanks
Do you agree with me that distortion specs related to the slew rate of an amplifier are reduced by a higher efficiency speaker operated at a comparable SPL?
I have had these speakers for a long time with the exception of upgrading the 816s to 817s and keeping the 816s for centers. It's plain enough that they are capable of causing ear damage. That ship has sailed. My work involves some pretty loud equipment. My ears used to ring but that was caused by my work truck. Anyway,I aware that the volume control also turns down.
So am I alone taking this approach?
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When the first clock was invented, how did they know what time to set it to?
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | 416ray4538 wrote: | | The ambition of Hi-Fi is to get as close to the original performance as you can and without the presence (volume) of a live performance there's just something missing. Am I alone in this approach? |
First of all, high-efficiency prosound compression drivers can not only create "live" SPLs in small spaces, they can easily create SPL's that can permanently damage your hearing - in less time than it takes to play a single song. Significant caution should be exercised. If you're listening to anything at even 115 dB without hearing protection, you're ruining your ears.
Next, in the vast majority of residential rooms, mid-size monitors are more than adequate to reproduce very accurate, low-distortion, high-fidelity sound well into the SPL range where nobody should be listening to it for any length of time. I have M&K THX Select monitors - essentially bookshelf speakers - and in my treated room, I can push the system to over 100dB with no distortion, a level I shouldn't be listening to for more than a couple of songs.
All that said, compression drivers can certainly sound very good for HT. I've become particularly fond of them in the last couple of years - especially JTR's. Could be my age - maybe age-induced reduced HF sensitivity.
But, whether they'll sound good or not will depend on the specific horns in question, and also how well the room is treated. A lot of the large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces, which generally isn't a good thing in a small space. Wide dispersion means a lot of early reflections, which affects clarity, imaging, and localization.
In my experience, very, very few rooms are treated well enough to handle large monitors and high SPL's - so all that high-SPL capability just goes to waste.
I think commercial prosound speakers in a small residential space is a bit like a 1000HP car on the street; you can't really use much of the capability, and if you try without having the proper space and training to do it, you'll most likely just get hurt and break sh*t.
SC |
Steve,
Large horn loudspeakers aren't designed for "wide dispersion." They are designed for specific, controlled dispersion angles (or "Q") and then they are arranged in arrays with DSP based timing manipulation to get very specific coverage performance. The need being met by these large horns is projecting clear sound over a very specific, distant and resulting large area. This requires efficiency, power, and controlled directivity. Not "wide dispersion."
Horn based loudspeakers usually have much more narrow HF dispersion than conventional mid-sized to bookshelf sized speakers. A smallish bookshelf sized speaker with a conventional dome tweeter will be very wide dispersion at high frequencies, much more so than any horn driver 6" OD or greater. The exceptions would be dedicated ring or slot radiator tweeters for studio use, but even then a conventional dome tweeter will usually have wider HF dispersion. For a small direct radiator speaker, dispersion is a function of the 1/4 wavelength relationship of the frequency being generated compared to the speaker's largest front baffle dimension. Given a bookshelf speaker's quite small front baffle dimensions and the HF capability of a decent dome tweeter and its inherently wide HF dispersion, the result is very wide HF dispersion converting completely to omnidirectional as high as 1.5 kHz and below. This is much wider dispersion than most any horn based speaker, even the CD (constant directivity horn) types with small HF horns that rely on refraction slot loading to achieve 90 degree horizontal dispersion simultaneously with narrow vertical dispersion. Th directivity characteristic of a CD horn would be an improvement over the speakers typically used in home theaters. The problem with the CD horns is their pronounced waveform distortion which results in large deviations in frequency response and poor impulse/spectrum performance. I.e., their neutrality is typically inferior to good direct radiator loudspeakers.
Regarding your observations about unused SPL capability of horns being wasted: There are enormous benefits due precisely to all that unused high SPL capability of horns vs. direct radiator speakers. The typical, small bookshelf speaker you deem more than adequate for HT use is probably around .2% efficient. This means that 99.8% of the power consumed by that speaker is converted to heat, almost all of it in the voice coil. This results in significant thermal compression. A good compression driver on a horn can be 30% efficient, even higher, over its usable bandwidth. This means essentially zero thermal compression in a home theater setting, where only a fraction of a watt would typically be dissipated. This translates to effortless dynamic inflection, which many will exchange any day of the week for slightly compromised neutrality. Neutrality is actually a non-issue if good studio based horns are used with premium compression drivers. At this point you get it all: Ideal dispersion characteristics, neutrality that is actually much better than most high end direct radiator speakers, and dynamic inflection that cannot hope to be matched by conventional speakers.
There is a double-whammy problem with regular dome tweeters: For them to be employed in a speaker that has very accurate overall performance means the tweeter is going to get a real workout. Which means even more thermal compression and other forms of distortion. I've really grown tired of the typical dynamic "speed limit" of dome tweeters, especially the $1 made-in-Taiwan tweets in garden variety "high end" consumer loudspeakers.
So the overall capability of a good wide bandwidth studio horn vastly exceeds direct radiator speakers, and the ideal characteristics needed from speakers in a home theater are much better met by them. It also means you can use amps that have good, high stiff rails but don't have to source much current. Which means even less distortion from the amp. One downside is the noise floor of the front end and amps needs to be really good. If not, it can be a bit too audible on horn speakers.
Regarding your 1000 hp car analogy: I would say any comparison of good direct radiator speakers to good horn based speaker is more like comparing a 1930 biplane with an F-22 Raptor. The gulf in technology and performance between the two is that huge. You are more than welcome to putt around in your quaint wood and fabric airplane, goggles and scarf and all.
The real reasons why HT buffs don't use horn speakers is 1.) Technical ignorance, and 2.) Cost. A single studio grade wide bandwidth compression driver can cost $1500 alone. A good horn to go on it is nearly as much. A JBL 2226 woofer is $450. This translates to a very expensive speaker, even if you design and build it yourself. A manufactured speaker with such parts costs a fortune.
Best regards,
Steve
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
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| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Aswesome post, Steve, I concur completely.
FWIW, I've posted before long ago, but Fostex made a fairly non-popular line of pro woofers and horns. One night club in town had said Fostex system, with two 30" woofers, 2 15s and 2 horns (at least that's what i got on trade). I sold the 30" woofers (big mistake) and kept the 15 and horn for a year, and sold them as well (bigger mistake!) Absolutely the nicest sounding horns I'd ever heard.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-31-woofers/fostex-fw800hs-31.5-super-woofer/
https://www.stereo-lab.de/EN/loudspeaker/invalid/fostex/radial-wooden-horns/fostex-h200-wood-radial-horn-for-2-in-drivers.html
Maybe it was my inexperience with pro sound (this was 25 years ago), but I'd kill to get those components back, and built into an amazing 2 channel stereo listening experience.
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:09 am Post subject: |
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They are a little beamy but the beam is wide enough that it doesn't matter. EQ doesn't seem to be a problem either.
The tweeters are behind the girls feet.
[img][/img]
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When the first clock was invented, how did they know what time to set it to?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:49 am Post subject: |
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I take no responsibility if the soon to be new to you Marquee drifts in convergence due to excessive vibration!
That's gotta be scary loud!
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:44 am Post subject: |
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I can't help wondering if they were partly to blame for problems with my Ampro. Maybe a hush box would be a good idea.
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AnalogRocks
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| 416ray4538 wrote: | | I can't help wondering if they were partly to blame for problems with my Ampro. Maybe a hush box would be a good idea. |
I think it was one of your girls, she appears to be possessed
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | 416ray4538 wrote: | | I can't help wondering if they were partly to blame for problems with my Ampro. Maybe a hush box would be a good idea. |
I think it was one of your girls, she appears to be possessed |
No more so than most teenage girls
Cameraphone version of redeye
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 416ray4538 wrote: | | I can't help wondering if they were partly to blame for problems with my Ampro. Maybe a hush box would be a good idea. |
I don't think so. remember that back in the day CRTs were used at concerts, and I set a couple up doing rentals where they were always taken in and out of road cases, with no issues.
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nice speakers ray!!, are the klipschorns as good as what I have heard about them? I have a really old pair of ElectroVoice Sentry IV speakers im restoring, I don't have plans to use them in the house, there simply isn't enough room for them here. I'll be selling them eventually, but not before I get my enjoyment from them. Your Altecs I saw in the pics remind me of them a bit.
Excellent setup 
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I see the resident expert on everything, aka "the "hyperbole master extraordinaire", has now checked in.
Judas Priest, Steve. Here we go again. I said (and I quote), "A lot of the large prosound horns are designed for wide dispersion to cover large spaces". I didn't say all horns, or most horns, or even many horns... I said, "A lot of the large prosound horns... I stand by that!
I have no interest in debating your thesis line-by-line and engaging in a multi-hour debate with you, but I will say that you're selectively choosing and leaving out facts when they're convenient to prove your hyperbolic idea, essentially that horns are wonderful and direct radiators are junk. You refer to "studio" horns when nobody said anything about studio horns. You refer to large multi-speaker arrays, I assume to prove that horns have narrow directivity, when in reality arrays are used both to cover a larger area and increase overall system output.
I'm well-aware of the theory of controlled-directivity, and how the horns work. Apparently you missed the fact that Ray and I were talking about large commercial horns, not just all horns general. Commercial horns ARE designed be used in large spaces, and do have a pretty large dispersion pattern. A 90-degree dispersion angle isn't what I would call "narrow". Further, many direct radiators have dispersion patterns very similar to horns at the frequencies that matter.
Then, you bring up the red herrings of efficiency and heat. Of course CDs and horns are more efficient. Much more so, in fact. Nobody said they weren't. But, again... At normal listening levels, in the typical rooms we use around here, even good bookshelf speakers connected to a decent receiver are perfectly capable of producing good, low-distortion sound. That's not the system I have or want, but many systems like that are certainly capable of good, low-distortion sound at normal listening levels.
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | Regarding your 1000 hp car analogy: I would say any comparison of good direct radiator speakers to good horn based speaker is more like comparing a 1930 biplane with an F-22 Raptor. The gulf in technology and performance between the two is that huge. You are more than welcome to putt around in your quaint wood and fabric airplane, goggles and scarf and all. |
Wow, so all the high-end direct radiator speakers from Wilson, JM Labs, Magico, or even more "mundane" direct radiators like Kal's Paradigms, Focal, and B&W are all 1930's biplanes (complete with goggles and scarf), while JBL compression drivers and horns from the 60's or 70's are F-22 Raptors. Yeah, OK Steve. You have wild hyperbole down to an art form.
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | The real reasons why HT buffs don't use horn speakers is 1.) Technical ignorance, and 2.) Cost. A single studio grade wide bandwidth compression driver can cost $1500 alone. A good horn to go on it is nearly as much. A JBL 2226 woofer is $450. This translates to a very expensive speaker, even if you design and build it yourself. A manufactured speaker with such parts costs a fortune. |
Ah, there it is again... mr_ro_co is über-smart and educated, while everybody else is ignorant.  The fact that people don't use CD's and horns is all because they're expensive and people are ignorant. It has nothing to do with the typical size of the cabinets relative to the room, or that many of our front stages are simply too small for three multi-cubic foot cabinets (especially with non-AT setups common with CRT), or that yes - the directivity of many commercial horns (often designed for large spaces and yes - wide dispersion) really isn't appropriate for what are typically tiny residential "bonus" rooms, bedrooms, and small rec-rooms, often with adjacent surfaces mere feet from the horn mouth, driver cone, or baffle.
I'm guessing the center 902 is mated to an 811B. Can somebody explain to me how that sounds anything even remotely "hi-fi" sitting right on a hardwood floor? How about the big mains essentially adjacent to a side wall?
Much, much respect to Ray for doing something big and awesome, but I'm seeing just as many (big) acoustic drawbacks to that setup as I see advantages. Again, much respect, but there is more to good sound than high-efficience and low distortion. Reflections and reverberation are distortion, too.
If I ever have a significant amount of disposable income, I'd love to do a big, spacious HT with seating for like 15 or 20, and horn-loaded CD speakers for a really big sound... But, it would certainly be in a fully-treated room. There are some great DIY CD designs I'd like to try building... But, again... For what I'd want, they're too large, and my room is too small. Wait, no it's because I'm just too poor and too ignorant.
SC
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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If there was one right way and all other ways were wrong We'd all want the same equipment.
My room does still need some treatment. As for the horns being too close to the walls they are tilted in a little and the horizontal dispersion is supposed to be 60 deg
I have other speaker pairs including a pair of Braun L100s and a pair of Infinity RS 2.5s. There's no argument that there lots of difference between speakers. In spite of theories specs and measurements it still comes down to what you like and what you're using them for. A very clever fellow once said " Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters"
Your ears and your personal preference are the only things that matter when picking speakers.
So can I go back to my question:
"Anyone else out there who has taken a similar approach?"
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