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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: |
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That's actually quite interesting. Batteries are basically just some metal rods in alkaline water, no? Make a big enough container and you've got yourself a large battery, I would think.
Copper rods, right?
And once in a while you just add some .. lemon juice, right?
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| uncletom wrote: | That's actually quite interesting. Batteries are basically just some metal rods in alkaline water, no? Make a big enough container and you've got yourself a large battery, I would think.
Copper rods, right? |
Batteries like what is used in the ups supplies are sealed lead acid like is used in a car except in a much smaller package
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crt king of black
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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Well then. As long as you re-charge them and keep them active they should last you at least a couple of years. No?
A car battery is rather compact. If you live like Case you could easilly have alot larger batteries under ground, with a lot more capacity.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| uncletom wrote: | Well then. As long as you re-charge them and keep them active they should last you at least a couple of years. No?
A car battery is rather compact. If you live like Case you could easilly have alot larger batteries under ground, with a lot more capacity. |
True but the battery bank is not really a good idea unless it was night time and the mains from the power plant fails
I have a ups unit for my iPhone and ipad chargers and a light it lasts a few hours with that load but with a computer the unit only lasts at the most 15 mins as the run time would depend on the load
I am planning on using solar for my work building (not sure if I will use a battery bank)along with the mains
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crt king of black
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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:24 am Post subject: |
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You also live on a small farm like Case?
Ok, but the batteries you handle are quite small, aren't they? If you'd have say batteries 10x the size of your present, you could power a load of perhaps a 100W for at least a few hours, no?
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| uncletom wrote: | You also live on a small farm like Case?
Ok, but the batteries you handle are quite small, aren't they? If you'd have say batteries 10x the size of your present, you could power a load of perhaps a 100W for at least a few hours, no? |
Yep I live on a small farm(nice and peaceful) quiet nights and I love it
My ups it have for my chargers and light is rated up to 550 watts max and has two batteries both rated at 6 volts in series(not sure on the specs of the batteries)
I have seen people using a car battery(optioma blue top) with a ups unit to extend run time I have two units that need new batteries so I may try that soon just for kicks
But to run a large house it would take a much larger unit(industrial sized) and would need a lot of upkeep
The solar panels would be great for day time use but at night they are useless as no sun means no electricity
You really have to plan it out and figure up your usage before taking a big step into something like this as there is a lot of work involved with it
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| uncletom wrote: | That is awesome! you live like Obi Wan Kenobi! And solar panels everywhere. That is in deed a cool way of living, many thanks for your pictures.
You manage only on solar power, or you also have additional electical cables from a power plant? |
Thanks  I have 3 phase mains power, the solar power I don't use feeds into the grid to supply others nearby. I could very easily run from solar alone, I use between 4 and 10 kW hours a day, and last 4 days in a row I have generated more than 25kW hours each day.
| the big E wrote: |
He would have to have power from the power company at night as solar only would create a blackout at night
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You an expert now eh? 
| uncletom wrote: | | Alright, thanks. But I thought that solar power charged some sort of batteries under ground, to store the power untill you need it, like in the evening. |
Don't listen to him You can do it that way yes, but its not the best way to go in my situation, I get paid a good amount of money for my surplus electricity supplied to the grid.
| the big E wrote: |
Not on all setups but case would have to post for us to be sure
Though a battery back-up setup would be expensive due to battery maintenance (trust me I know how that by ups units for computers) |
No batteries here yet. Maintenance on the batteries is not the expensive part, that is cheap, its the initial purchase of the batteries and the MPPT charge controller.
| uncletom wrote: | That's actually quite interesting. Batteries are basically just some metal rods in alkaline water, no? Make a big enough container and you've got yourself a large battery, I would think.
Copper rods, right?
And once in a while you just add some .. lemon juice, right? |
There is abit more to it than that, you could do that, but youll get f*** all capacity and inconsistent voltages, so youd be wasting your time and money.
| the big E wrote: |
Batteries like what is used in the ups supplies are sealed lead acid like is used in a car except in a much smaller package |
Not really, they are quite different. The car battery would not like being on a UPS for long, it would likely die in the arse real quick the moment it was required too.
The sealed UPS batteries are AGM VRLA, absorbed glass mat, valve regulated lead-acid type batteries, they are designed as a standby type battery and will withstand a continual float charge, car batteries will not.
Neither of those type are good for solar-island solutions. You would require a high capacity flooded deep cycle lead acid, or something simular. Golf cart batteries will do the job for a small setup.
| uncletom wrote: | Well then. As long as you re-charge them and keep them active they should last you at least a couple of years. No?
A car battery is rather compact. If you live like Case you could easilly have alot larger batteries under ground, with a lot more capacity. |
Possibly, but not every day is sunny, you have to account for that. When it is sunny for long periods, you will consume a lot less power due to less use of clothes dryer, and hot water is provided by the sun. When it rains for days at a time you might only make enough power to cover the daily consumption, which means your batteries get little or nothing til its sunny again. Youll also make no hot water with no sun, so after a couple days you may need to use the electric booster.
I could easily put a large battery bank in a lot of places, I have 7 acres of land here. A car battery might be compact, but its also of no use. Its not the space required for these batteries, its the outlay to buy them. Ideally, you would run at 36v or 48v on the DC side, which will improve efficiency for reducing amount of current flow on the DC side and things run cooler.
Lets say you went with 6x 6v 225Ah golf cart flooded deep cycle lead acids for a 36v bank, 36x225=8,100 or 8.1kW hours to zero charge, so at best, usable would be no more than 4kW hours from that setup, which will power your 100w load for about 36 hours assuming a reasonable loss of around 10% in the conversion process of the inverter and sub-circuits. It should never be 10%, but you should always over-allow and over-design.
Cost for those 6 batteries would be around $250 each for me to buy them here, would probably last around 4-6 years providing 4kW hours per day. At current prices here, that would be $1.20c worth of electricity from the grid per day, would take about 1,250 days ( about 3.5 years ) to pay for the batteries alone. This doesn't take into account the MPPT charge controller and the inverter, which puts you a good $5,000 more down.
| uncletom wrote: | You also live on a small farm like Case?
Ok, but the batteries you handle are quite small, aren't they? If you'd have say batteries 10x the size of your present, you could power a load of perhaps a 100W for at least a few hours, no? |
Possibly, it depends on a lot of things 
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| the big E wrote: |
Yep I live on a small farm(nice and peaceful) quiet nights and I love it
My ups it have for my chargers and light is rated up to 550 watts max and has two batteries both rated at 6 volts in series(not sure on the specs of the batteries)
I have seen people using a car battery(optioma blue top) with a ups unit to extend run time I have two units that need new batteries so I may try that soon just for kicks
But to run a large house it would take a much larger unit(industrial sized) and would need a lot of upkeep
The solar panels would be great for day time use but at night they are useless as no sun means no electricity
You really have to plan it out and figure up your usage before taking a big step into something like this as there is a lot of work involved with it |
You should NEVER NEVER NEVER put a battery on a UPS that is larger than it's design load. You are asking for serious trouble. Youll get more than just f***en kicks mate!!
It would take almost no upkeep on the battery bank. There isn't much to it. That isn't the issue.
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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Case, 7 acres of land? Man, you just have to shoot your view in daylight. You have alot of forest or flat areas? You could fit an amusement park there.
Ok, about the batteries, you don't use the solar stuff for yourself, but you do bussiness selling power to your neighbors? Amazing. And thanks for all that info.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Sort of, the electricity company buys it back from me.
Its mostly forest. Which is great, cause no one can see me here I don't think I have any view pics.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm out case out done me
As far as using car batteries I haven't nor do I want to attemp it as I know it is risky and the battery wouldn't last
I still remember some of what you sent me in the pm you sent me case(just was trying to think at 2am :p)
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Its more than just risky...
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | Its more than just risky... |
I know but I have seen on YouTube where people has tried it
A cars electrical system is regulated on the charging of the battery
But once I seen the battery out in the open in the YouTube videos I forgot the idea real quick(having a battery like that out in the open is asking for trouble)
Now to see if I can get replacement batteries for the ups units(I have two that needs new batteries)
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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A UPS is also regulated charging, its got nothing to do with that.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | A UPS is also regulated charging, its got nothing to do with that. |
There are two types of ups units
Ones where the battery works in line
Ones where the units switches to the battery(the one I have like this works fully)
I have two of the in line and one of the switch style
I tested the output of the one that switches and its 13.5 volts on the charge cycle which is correct voltage for any 12 volt battery(it has two 6 volt sla batteries wired in series) yet never drops though it does switch to the battery at times(my guess is to make sure its not gone bad) the only time it isn't charging is when the mains is out or it is testing the batteries
Now I ain't saying that a car battery(agm style) will work with a ups unit(it might) but it would need a fuse and something else in place to protect the ups unit(again I still ain't going to risk it)
I have two apc units that need new batteries and was wondering if I could go with a larger battery in both or not?
I think both have a fuse in them but I ain't sure
I ask as I have plans to use on for a tv(samsung dlp) to power down the set in the event of a power failure
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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:35 am Post subject: |
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How is it that you 'bushmen' came across projectors then? I mean, a 14'' TV seems more your thing. But there you are, right in the middle of the outback, with solar panels and home cinema equipment!? That's not really 'Obi Wan' -style, is it?
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| uncletom wrote: | | How is it that you 'bushmen' came across projectors then? I mean, a 14'' TV seems more your thing. But there you are, right in the middle of the outback, with solar panels and home cinema equipment!? That's not really 'Obi Wan' -style, is it? |
This may sound crazy but I first seen on in action in a movie(the barco video model)and have wanted one since(now I have 4 2 working(1partly) and 1 is dead due to bad low voltage power supply and one I got to upgrade my current set
14 inch is nothing I have a 5 inch tv that was made in the late 80's (yes it still works)that I had to use at one point(don't ask why)
My first crt projector was a ecp4101(no Acon) it gave me issues but threw a great picture from those 7inch tubes I got it from curt
Now I have a marquee in vidikron clothes(was a 8110+ now a 9501LC) I have a 9500 parts chassis (that's how I got the 9inch tubes which are mint) along with a nec 10pg(nice set if I can get it fixed) I never knew what the hype was about the 9inch tube sets but now I do and love every minute of it(crt bliss)
I used to have a digital projector(got annoyed at it due to the rainbow effect and motion blur)
Talking about bushmen I drive a cadillac escalade and get odd looks due to the dust from my road do I care(heck no as I love being back in the sticks) now I never get tired of people thinking I would get stuck in the winter (haven't yet) as most don't know my caddy is all wheel drive(very few know it) I find it great to haul a crt projector home with it
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uncletom
Joined: 07 Sep 2013
Posts: 72
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Big E. Right, you are a real extremist, awesome! But do you have space enough for all your projectors? You haven't got other hobbies? You don't need space for other stuff? You focus only on CRT projectors?
And, *can* you move your projectors yourself? This is important as you live alone in the .. well deserted area, you need to be able to manage quite alot on your own.
My SONY was so heavy, it scared me! I'm handling 29'' CRT monitors barely. My favs are 20''. That SONY killed me slowly.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| the big E wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | A UPS is also regulated charging, its got nothing to do with that. |
There are two types of ups units
Ones where the battery works in line
Ones where the units switches to the battery(the one I have like this works fully)
I have two of the in line and one of the switch style
I tested the output of the one that switches and its 13.5 volts on the charge cycle which is correct voltage for any 12 volt battery(it has two 6 volt sla batteries wired in series) yet never drops though it does switch to the battery at times(my guess is to make sure its not gone bad) the only time it isn't charging is when the mains is out or it is testing the batteries
Now I ain't saying that a car battery(agm style) will work with a ups unit(it might) but it would need a fuse and something else in place to protect the ups unit(again I still ain't going to risk it)
I have two apc units that need new batteries and was wondering if I could go with a larger battery in both or not?
I think both have a fuse in them but I ain't sure
I ask as I have plans to use on for a tv(samsung dlp) to power down the set in the event of a power failure |
I know about different types of UPS, im an electrician, I have a few pieces of paper and a plastic license in my wallet given to me by the Australian Government
There are lots of different types of sealed Pb batteries. The charging system you use must be the correct type for the battery type, or youre going to damage the battery, the charger, yourself, the surrounding area, or any combination of them. Its got nothing to do with them working or not, they will work fine, they will just be dangerous. The UPS will have a fuse built in, that is not the reason. There is more to it which im not going into.
AGM car batteries are NOT all deep cycle. But that is irrelevant and isn't the reason you shouldn't use them, they are not designed for this job, and the charger is not designed for those batteries.
You cant just install a larger battery in a UPS even if it is the same type. They are designed with a specific maximum charge current for a given battery size, you want to stay under that if you want the charger to live a long life.
You don't want to run anything you don't NEED to on a UPS, the AC wave form is non-sinusoidal, so itll be abit harsh on electronics, and the frequencies generally don't hold real close to the mains frequency either.
You have to remember youre talking about a 1-1.5kW inverter here, that will generally cost you about $100-$200 or so. How good do you expect it to be? It is designed for ONE PURPOSE, and that is power essential systems temporarily in the event of mains failure. That means very short term, and essential means something you cant do without.
That unit you have there will probably be a 300-400VA ( you never measure a UPS in watts, it is ALWAYS in VA, so ignore the watts rating, its horse sh*t ) the 2 batteries will probably be 6v 3.5Ah, you can also use a single 12v 3.5Ah battery. Its a kid's toy, forget about it. Itll provide about 30-35 watt hours before it shuts off, if youre lucky.
| uncletom wrote: | | How is it that you 'bushmen' came across projectors then? I mean, a 14'' TV seems more your thing. But there you are, right in the middle of the outback, with solar panels and home cinema equipment!? That's not really 'Obi Wan' -style, is it? |
Ive got a heap of TVs and a couple more CRT projectors in that container you see, even got 2 arcade machines in there!! Smallest set would be a 19", never owned anything smaller. This isn't really the "outback" here as you call it, this is the bush, but its not far from towns. Out there they have 10,000 acre blocks or more.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | the big E wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | A UPS is also regulated charging, its got nothing to do with that. |
There are two types of ups units
Ones where the battery works in line
Ones where the units switches to the battery(the one I have like this works fully)
I have two of the in line and one of the switch style
I tested the output of the one that switches and its 13.5 volts on the charge cycle which is correct voltage for any 12 volt battery(it has two 6 volt sla batteries wired in series) yet never drops though it does switch to the battery at times(my guess is to make sure its not gone bad) the only time it isn't charging is when the mains is out or it is testing the batteries
Now I ain't saying that a car battery(agm style) will work with a ups unit(it might) but it would need a fuse and something else in place to protect the ups unit(again I still ain't going to risk it)
I have two apc units that need new batteries and was wondering if I could go with a larger battery in both or not?
I think both have a fuse in them but I ain't sure
I ask as I have plans to use on for a tv(samsung dlp) to power down the set in the event of a power failure |
I know about different types of UPS, im an electrician, I have a few pieces of paper and a plastic license in my wallet given to me by the Australian Government
There are lots of different types of sealed Pb batteries. The charging system you use must be the correct type for the battery type, or youre going to damage the battery, the charger, yourself, the surrounding area, or any combination of them. Its got nothing to do with them working or not, they will work fine, they will just be dangerous. The UPS will have a fuse built in, that is not the reason. There is more to it which im not going into.
AGM car batteries are NOT all deep cycle. But that is irrelevant and isn't the reason you shouldn't use them, they are not designed for this job, and the charger is not designed for those batteries.
You cant just install a larger battery in a UPS even if it is the same type. They are designed with a specific maximum charge current for a given battery size, you want to stay under that if you want the charger to live a long life.
You don't want to run anything you don't NEED to on a UPS, the AC wave form is non-sinusoidal, so itll be abit harsh on electronics, and the frequencies generally don't hold real close to the mains frequency either.
You have to remember youre talking about a 1-1.5kW inverter here, that will generally cost you about $100-$200 or so. How good do you expect it to be? It is designed for ONE PURPOSE, and that is power essential systems temporarily in the event of mains failure. That means very short term, and essential means something you cant do without.
That unit you have there will probably be a 300-400VA ( you never measure a UPS in watts, it is ALWAYS in VA, so ignore the watts rating, its horse sh*t ) the 2 batteries will probably be 6v 3.5Ah, you can also use a single 12v 3.5Ah battery. Its a kid's toy, forget about it. Itll provide about 30-35 watt hours before it shuts off, if youre lucky.
| uncletom wrote: | | How is it that you 'bushmen' came across projectors then? I mean, a 14'' TV seems more your thing. But there you are, right in the middle of the outback, with solar panels and home cinema equipment!? That's not really 'Obi Wan' -style, is it? |
Ive got a heap of TVs and a couple more CRT projectors in that container you see, even got 2 arcade machines in there!! Smallest set would be a 19", never owned anything smaller. This isn't really the "outback" here as you call it, this is the bush, but its not far from towns. Out there they have 10,000 acre blocks or more. |
Understood and why I won't be attempting said procudre anytime soon
The ups I mentions has listed 500Va on it and it handles up to 4.3a this is a pc grade unit not a whole house unit that's why
I know it has a fuse in it(all of mine do) I just have a few small things on this unit and one is my phone charger should the power to out I can still charge my phone
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