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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Such high resolution can only be done with 60 Hz.
3250 x 2560 @ 85Hz will not be possible i think.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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kabuby77
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | How did the 909 and 912 do it's 3200x2560? And how does an NEC XG do 2500x2000? Cause i was always under the impression what Gabór says is correct. |
1920x1200@60p > 120MHz bandwidth
3200x2560@60p > 500MHz 
We know the fastest CRT is BR909 with 180MHz neckboard.
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Phoenixed
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 514
Location: The mitten
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | You can try 2048 x 1536 @60Hz for Cinemascope.
My Sony CRT Monitor locks that signal tack sharp without problems.
If you have two 9 inchers a blend should be possible. |
Damn yer FWs! 
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Guys, this may just be the thread to start this in, as I've had 2 emails already today from last night's email.
I don't follow anything cutting edge at all, since I keep the trailing edge going.
My understanding is that 4K needs 2 HDMI cables? So someone like Moome would have to make a 2 HDMI cable to RGBHV converter in order for it to work? Fill me in, and I'll link this thread to the two customers as well.
About all I can add is that I agree, CRT can probably not properly resolve 4K, but there have always been guys (like Ken Hotte for you old timers) that claimed a resolution way past the sweet spot worked fine on CRT. (BTW, Ken claimed 1080p on a hotrodded ECP projector, which I thought was a bogus claim, but some believed him). |
For 4k at 24Hz only one HDMI cable is required. Obviously on CRT 24Hz isn't going to work. For 4k at 60Hz two HDMI cables will be required. Lumagen will be supporting both types of outputs. Also in addition to HDMI, Lumagen may be adding support for 4k on SDI output, which would be even easier.
I think the most likely scenario with 4k on the CRT projectors that can support it would be running full resolution at 48Hz. I am virtually positive that we will need 2x HDMI cables for this or SDI.
| kal wrote: | I've been thinking about 4K UltraHD and how it fits in CRT projectors.
Anyone try 4K (2160p) resolution on their CRT projector? This is 3840 x 2160 pixels.
My guy feeling is that it is simply not going to be something that CRT will be able to handle very well. Reasons:
2160p/60 is around 136Khz scanrate. While the Marquee 9500LC Ultra, Sony G90 and Barco 909 will be able to lock and display it, I find it very hard to believe that they'll be able to resolve it well (especially the 3840 horizontal pixels).
Anyone have a PC video card that supports this sort of output and tried it on their CRT? (Do PC video cards even support this? I'm out of the loop a far as PCs are concerned). Are there even any 4K PC monitors available to do this to begin with?
The other issue for doing 4K Blu-ray playback or similar is that someone (Moome) would have to invent a 4K HDMI analog converter box or card. This would be an expensive box I think and given that very few CRT projectors can even lock on to such a signal, why would one be invented? I don't even want to think of what DACs/buffers for 4K would cost (assuming they exist at all). Why spend time designing an uber-expensive converter that less than 0.1% of analog owners can use?
Discuss!
Kal |
Kal, Moome and I have already been discussing a 4k input card for the G90. It's in the works and very early planning stages. Right now it is still very hard to get HDMI chips that support 4k on the input. They are finally becoming readily available. Even Lumagen was having trouble getting chips for development of the processors that accept 4k on the input, but now they are finally easily able to get them. Surprisingly, the components to make an HDMI 4k input to analog converter are not much more expensive than that of 1080p.
My take on CRT and 4k is as follows. The primary benefit to 4k on a digital projector is that it can hide the pixel structure with the massive amount of pixels. This way you can't see the pixels on a digital from the viewing distance anymore. CRT has never suffered from the problem of seeing a pixel structure because the rise and fall time between "pixels" on CRT covers the structure. Because of this, digital projectors will benefit from upsampled 1080p (and lower) resolution because it hides the pixel structure. Upsampling on CRT will provide no such benefit so would be pointless.
If we are talking about native 4k content than things will most likely be different. There is not a CRT projector out there that can resolve 4k. However, even if the horizontal lines overlap and even if the vertical can't be defined 1:1 on a CRT, my gut feeling is that the increased resolution will still look better than 1080p. A digital projector will be able to easily fully resolve 4k, but a good 9" CRT running native 4k may be surprising.
I think as more content comes up and once we get an actual 4k input for our CRT's, only then will we know for sure. I am optimistic on the G90 and Barco projectors.
craigr
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Last edited by CIR Engineering on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Blend can do it or at least close to it, there are some versions of 4k HD I guess that are not the full 3840 x 2160. I am sure there will be 2.4 aspect ratio movies shot in 4k that will not be full 4k which is still 1.78 screen.
So if they want a 2.4 aspect movie it be a 3840x1600. So i figure it be about each PJ doing 1730x1600 for a 2.4 aspect content
across two PJ's if using 4 then it be a piece of cake BW wise. then of course other issues of blending come into play here
Nashou |
2.4 aspect running 48Hz cropped from 4k may not even be all that difficult for a single high end 9". On a blend it would be cake.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | Analog RGB is usually limited at 2048x1536-85Hz, very few device can go beyond that on analog plain. But, isn't the 4K strictly paired with the REC. 2020 color space which is much wider than REC. 709 (currently used)?
REC.2020 vs. REC.709 |
I hope not! If that's the case than we are totally boned on CRT with the 4k color space. There is no way we can make rec2020 on CRT (except on 8" AC machines, but that won't do for 4k). 9" machines are out of the question for rec2020.
Do you have a source regarding the strict pairing of 4k with 2020. I actually thought that idea went out the window and that 4k was going to use rec709 colors.
Thanks,
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | Analog RGB is usually limited at 2048x1536-85Hz, very few device can go beyond that on analog plain. But, isn't the 4K strictly paired with the REC. 2020 color space which is much wider than REC. 709 (currently used)?
REC.2020 vs. REC.709 |
I hope not! If that's the case than we are totally boned on CRT with the 4k color space. There is no way we can make rec2020 on CRT (except on 8" AC machines, but that won't do for 4k). 9" machines are out of the question for rec2020.
Do you have a source regarding the strict pairing of 4k with 2020. I actually thought that idea went out the window and that 4k was going to use rec709 colors.
Thanks,
craigr |
Don't know any certainty, but the Wikipedia page of Ultra HD suggest that 4K and 2K resolutions use the REC. 2020 color space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_definition_television
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | Analog RGB is usually limited at 2048x1536-85Hz, very few device can go beyond that on analog plain. But, isn't the 4K strictly paired with the REC. 2020 color space which is much wider than REC. 709 (currently used)?
REC.2020 vs. REC.709 |
I hope not! If that's the case than we are totally boned on CRT with the 4k color space. There is no way we can make rec2020 on CRT (except on 8" AC machines, but that won't do for 4k). 9" machines are out of the question for rec2020.
Do you have a source regarding the strict pairing of 4k with 2020. I actually thought that idea went out the window and that 4k was going to use rec709 colors.
Thanks,
craigr |
Don't know any certainty, but the Wikipedia page of Ultra HD suggest that 4K and 2K resolutions use the REC. 2020 color space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_definition_television |
Well I am glad you pointed this out. I have just put several feelers out to engineers and hardware manufactures in the industry. You know what everyone has told me so far? They have said, we don't know and let us get back to you after doing some research.
This is going to be a disaster for a while. Remember when we went from SD colors to HD colors and everything was getting crossed for like five years after the gamut was expanded. Now hardware manufacturers don't know. I bet half the 4k projectors will use 2020 gamut when they receive 4k and the other half will try and use 709. Source devices will do the same, like BD players will sometimes do this correctly and other models won't.
Then there is the question of what color space should all existing movies be shown in. What about 4k releases of older movies? What about movies shot and mastered in 4k... will they be using 2020 or 709 colors.
For calibrations I am going to start having to do two color spaces now on 4k projectors, one for 202 and another for 709. This garbage never ends... sigh.
At least down the road when this settles we will have a bigger color gamut, but for the next five + years this is going to be a mess.
sigh,
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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fragzero
Joined: 30 Aug 2012
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| fragzero wrote: | | Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking? |
He's not joking. With an AC machine, you can re-tint the coolant to a darker, richer primary (even though you'd sacrifice light output to do so).
You can do no such mod with an LC machine. The only two ways to make the primaries deeper on the LC machine would be to gel the light path (and sacrifice ANSI and MTF along with lumens), or you'd have to get new tinted C-elements manufactured (which is utterly impractical).
SC
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| fragzero wrote: | | Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking? |
| ecrabb wrote: | | fragzero wrote: | | Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking? |
He's not joking. With an AC machine, you can re-tint the coolant to a darker, richer primary (even though you'd sacrifice light output to do so).
You can do no such mod with an LC machine. The only two ways to make the primaries deeper on the LC machine would be to gel the light path (and sacrifice ANSI and MTF along with lumens), or you'd have to get new tinted C-elements manufactured (which is utterly impractical).
SC |
Exactly.
I think an AC machine could do it, but I am actually not certain.
It still might not even be possible because I am not certain that any of the green or red light emissions from the phosphors would be saturated enough. It may be that with rec2020 the red and green is so saturated that there is literally no light emitted by the phosphors with saturated enough wave length (xy beyond rec709).
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Phoenixed"][quote="ElTopo"]You can try 2048 x 1536 @60Hz for Cinemascope.
My Sony CRT Monitor locks that signal tack sharp without problems.
If you have two 9 inchers a blend should be possible.[/quote]
Damn yer FWs! [/quote]
Get 'em before the dumpster does. It's just an awesome monitor.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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mc86
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 767
Location: pittsburgh, pa
TV/Projector: ECP 4500 (Vidikron box), ECP4500+, wanting 07MS/07MTS, evaluating pc soft-blend
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think I recall seeing on some chart I can't find that some green phosphors do exist that emit centered down to around 520, but I don't know if they were ever used in a projection tube. If such a tube existed, it just might move the XY enough...not sure.
For AC machines, I've included the %T vs wavelength for the green tube's fluid used as I measured last summer. You'll see the transmittance is not quite as good as in the 2nd figure that is for a c-element (3M RPTV). The 2nd figure also includes what is emitted by a typical green tube.
Bottom line: I'd say to have a net impact of shifting the "average" (whatever that means in this case, given human color response over this range) would require an additional cut-off filter for everything ~570nm and above. No idea if that exists except in very expensive tiny little filters one might get from Edmond Optics, etc. I doubt such a specific dye/filter exists.
Oh -- and if mother nature wasn't such a big ass party pooper (see Stoke's shift), I'd say we'd simply need to specify a fluorophore that would excite at 550 and emit at 510... Of course, one might suggest using something that excites in the blue range and emits in the green -- thereby enabling a blue tube to create green light (at less intensity...!)! This, of course, is the single most insane idea ever to appear on this site...
cheers,
Matt
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| green optical fluid from 7"ES machines...don't be confused by dye name acid blue for green. blue is clear-looking fluid... |
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| 3M spec from RPTV with c-element |
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| mc86 wrote: | This, of course, is the single most insane idea ever to appear on this site...
cheers,
Matt |
Matt, if that's your thinking then you haven't been around here long enough
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CRT.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't Eisermann brag about a a 1208 of his spanking a 4k Sony?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | mc86 wrote: | This, of course, is the single most insane idea ever to appear on this site...
cheers,
Matt |
Matt, if that's your thinking then you haven't been around here long enough |
I agree(I have known of 4k for awhile and if it can be done on a crt well I will be running one for a long long time(likely for life if possible)) 
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noos@xp37+
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Berlin/Munich
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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I did a few 4k tests, while hunting for an editing monitor.
Some results now, but more later:
I tested all of these resolutions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution . Analog high end cabling from PC.
Mostly did 2.39 aspect, as I use it in ht. I tested CRT monitors and projectors. My first line of tests was done with 24hz and 30hz.
As you know, most CRTs do not sync to these rates (like my Ultras). But my Nec xp37+ (24/30hz) and my Sony 1272 (30hz) do.
Will do a pricise setup in future and report. I will also run the Ultra at consumer 4k in 2.39:1 (3840x1600) at 48hz. As I do 3d at 1920x800 96hz, I am curious how it will look. I also have the option to interlace 4k. The most intersting part will be how 3840 will be resolved horizontally on a high rez green and the different lenses.
Peace
Marc
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | fragzero wrote: | | Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking? |
He's not joking. With an AC machine, you can re-tint the coolant to a darker, richer primary (even though you'd sacrifice light output to do so).
You can do no such mod with an LC machine. The only two ways to make the primaries deeper on the LC machine would be to gel the light path (and sacrifice ANSI and MTF along with lumens), or you'd have to get new tinted C-elements manufactured (which is utterly impractical).
SC |
Is it not possible to add a tinted glass, in front of the tube inside the LC chamber.?
I would emagine one mounted on 4 dots, 1-2mm from the tube and glycol all around it.
Anyone ever done that.?
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | fragzero wrote: | | Cir Engineering, why can an 8" AC do rec2020? Or where you joking? |
He's not joking. With an AC machine, you can re-tint the coolant to a darker, richer primary (even though you'd sacrifice light output to do so).
You can do no such mod with an LC machine. The only two ways to make the primaries deeper on the LC machine would be to gel the light path (and sacrifice ANSI and MTF along with lumens), or you'd have to get new tinted C-elements manufactured (which is utterly impractical).
SC |
Is it not possible to add a tinted glass, in front of the tube inside the LC chamber.?
I would emagine one mounted on 4 dots, 1-2mm from the tube and glycol all around it.
Anyone ever done that.? |
It should work, but at the price of the ANSI contrast, plain surfaces in the light path causing reflections.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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