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ecrabb
Forum Moderator

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:04 pm Post subject:

Jeremy112 wrote:

The COLOR is the one thing few here ever mention. Maybe because most people do not realize that with digital, still as of current, is ONLY 24-bit. CRT is FULL 32-bit color, and that alone makes video far more enjoyable vs watching Technicolor digitals. (for me anyway)

Uh, WTF are you talking about?

SC

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:07 pm Post subject:

ecrabb wrote:

Was he really giving you sh*t, though - or was he simply misinformed and didn't know about CRT and was asking/suggesting from a point of ignorance, i.e. he didn't know what he didn't now?

SC

Steve, I'm not trying to pick on you in this thread and was just having some fun with you in my other post, but really? A sales guy for a well known projection screen company not knowing what a CRT projector is????? Now that's funny! Laughing

kal
Forum Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

Kal,
Projectors ansi CR hasn't gotten so much better over the yars. they are still stuck with 800 limit.
plasma displays, however, reach much higher numbers, like 6000 I think.
Can you say that picture on these plasma displays look ten times better than any projector due to the ansi CR gap?

Of course not, since (as I mentioned before), that spec is only one factor that drives image quality, and everyone rates needs differently.

Jeremy112 wrote:

Doesn't matter. The Blu-ray standard (and DVD, broadcast, etc) only supports 8 bits of color precision per channel. That's all your getting on the CRT as well.

Kal
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:21 pm Post subject:

macgyver655 wrote:

ecrabb wrote:

Was he really giving you sh*t, though - or was he simply misinformed and didn't know about CRT and was asking/suggesting from a point of ignorance, i.e. he didn't know what he didn't now?

Mac, I wasn't suggesting that he didn't know what a CRT projector was, but more that he just didn't understand all the technical differences between CRT or digital, or understand that a CRT is bright enough on a small screen in a fully-light-controlled room. It's probably been a good solid five years since any professional integrators were installing CRT projectors, and for nearly five years before that, it was only a few. So, for well over 10 years, CRT has been a tiny piece of the overall pie. If a younger guy started in the industry five or even ten years ago, it's possible he may not have even ever SEEN a CRT projector in a professional install, let alone understand the advantages and disadvantages. All he might know is what a guy at CEDIA told him five years ago, which was that CRT's were larger, noisier, more difficult to setup, and weren't nearly as bright as digitals - which would all be true.

SC

jbmeyer13

Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject:

ecrabb wrote:

jbmeyer13 wrote:

It sounds like you operate under the assumption that I walk into a custom installer's shop and antagonize them which couldn't be further from the truth. Quite frankly I have found this type of sales person superiority complex common across multiple industries and what it really displays is a lack of customer service skills. I'm also not saying that this happens every single time but it does happen.

Sorry, just making some assumptions based on the attitude in your post, and wondering out loud if there's as much attitude from your side of the fence as from the other.

jbmeyer13 wrote:

Back to my OP, why the hell does the Stewart rep feel the need to give me sh*t about my PJ choice? Last time I checked they don't sell projectors and have nothing to gain in doing so. Totally pointless.

If that's really how it went down, then of course he was out of line. Was he really giving you sh*t, though - or was he simply misinformed and didn't know about CRT and was asking/suggesting from a point of ignorance, i.e. he didn't know what he didn't now?

SC

It was the way he said "Okaayyyyy" that prompted this thread. Perhaps he is ignorant but that doesn't excuse the sarcasm and actually makes it worse (being condescending is bad enough when you are knowledgeable but far worse when you are not). This is how it went down, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. I never intended this thread to become a digital vs crt (we have enough of those already Laughing

) rather to point out the interaction and the bad taste it left in my mouth.

On a similar note, I'm not very knowledgeable on audio but my father is. When I went to boutique stereo stores with him as a kid I noticed similar tendencies from some of the sales guys. Everyone has their opinion but I find their delivery to carry equal importance as to whether I find them to be credible and worthwhile.
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opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject:

kal wrote:

opv wrote:

Of course not, since (as I mentioned before), that spec is only one factor that drives image quality, and everyone rates needs differently.

I think your missing my point. I'm not saying ansi CR has no effect on image quality, I'm saying the effect is very small comared to native static contrast.
Which of the following theoric specs would you take?
1) native static CR 1000000 and ansi CR of 1000
2) native static CR of 10000 and ansi CR of 10000

I know what I'll put my chips on.

kal
Forum Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

kal wrote:

opv wrote:

Of course not, since (as I mentioned before), that spec is only one factor that drives image quality, and everyone rates needs differently.

I don't know. I'd have to see both.

Kal
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opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject:

kal wrote:

opv wrote:

kal wrote:

opv wrote:

Of course not, since (as I mentioned before), that spec is only one factor that drives image quality, and everyone rates needs differently.

I don't know. I'd have to see both.

Kal

But if you have to bet , which one of these has the potential to a better image?

kal
Forum Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject:

I really don't know. I don't bet, I don't guess. It would also depend on what you mean by "better" too. It would probably also depend on the content type (high APL, low APL, etc). You're trying to get me to agree that one set of numbers will always mean that something will look "better" than some other set of numbers and as I've mentioned before, the answer is "it depends", as many here have already stated. Kal _________________ Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you! My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0

opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject:

Kal, I'm not trying to make you agree on anything, I just want to understand your opinion.

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject:

ecrabb wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

ecrabb wrote:

Was he really giving you sh*t, though - or was he simply misinformed and didn't know about CRT and was asking/suggesting from a point of ignorance, i.e. he didn't know what he didn't now?

Then the sales guy should of said, " I don't have any experience with CRT technology so let me get someone to help you. The OP "is" a CRT customer.

Ignorance is no excuse for attitude.

And why did you have to throw that last sentence in your post. Your post was non bias until then.

Are you trying to antagonize an analog/build quality response from me, lol? I mean really, I haven't thrown out a "Digitals Suck" comment in a long time. Laughing

kal
Forum Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

Which of the following theoric specs would you take?
1) native static CR 1000000 and ansi CR of 1000
2) native static CR of 10000 and ansi CR of 10000

I'm not trying to make you agree on anything, I just want to understand your opinion.

I think there's probably a crossover point somewhere but I'm not sure where it is. It may also depend on content type.

I never measured my static or ANSI CR on my previous CRT projector (Zenith 1200) as my meter wouldn't read that low reliably. I haven't done it on my new JVC RS56 digital projector yet. So I don't have a firm grasp of what (say) a static CR of 10,000:1 vs 100,000:1 really looks like on "real world" content.

With any numbers/specs, including both CRs (static and ANSI) I think there's a law of diminishing returns. After a certain point, any better is not going to give you much of anything you're going to notice. For example a x10 increase of static CR for 1000 up to 10,000 is probably a much bigger jump in image quality than the x10 jump from 10,000 to 100,000 or even the x100 jump 10,000 to 1,000,000. That's just my guess but it people who have seen same brand digitals go from 50,000 to over 100,000 (like the various JVC lines over the years) say the diffences in image quality are not massive.

What I do know is that I prefer my JVC - it has a better image 'pop' and depth to it as compared to my previous Zenith 1200 CRT. My JVC digital has a higher light output but also a slightly higher black level, my Zenith CRT had a lower black level and light output was also lower.

I was concerned and hoped that my RS56 (which I bought blindly) would at least meet the image quality of my Zenith 1200 CRT(in the factors that are important to me which image 'pop', 'depth', and low light handling). I was pleasantly surprised to see that it was actually much better than my Zenith CRT on all 3 aspects, and then considerably better on other fronts too. I'm not sure how this translates into measured numbers. I just know what I see and years ago looking at digital made want to throw up. The quality just wasn't there, even on many of the higher end models. I really wished that it had been better as I really just wanted to watch movies with reasonable quality but I just couldn't do it. It had nothing to do with the cost. The quality of the digitals was just horrible. It didn't help that I saw many high end 9" CRT models (mostly Vidikron Vision 1's and Runco's - both rebadged from Ehome and Barco) over the years in the 90's and my jaw dropped every time I saw them. Seen at various trade shows running specially acquired HD content played through hard drives, it was "like looking througha window" (the often used experssion).

Even by 2000-2004, the high end $5-10K digitals I was seeing were still horrible by comparison. Many digital owners had not seen better or didn't want to "deal" with CRT so they had their blinders on. I'd see properly calibrated $5-15K digital projectors at various enthusiast homes and think (only to myself) "this sucks compared to my Barco 800". It's only been in the last ~5 years or less that I've started to see digitals I knew I could live with. The JVC RS1 was the first that had me thinking "yep- they're on to something". That was about 2007-2008 or so. It wasn't perfect (too dim, didn't quite have the depth or pop, but it was starting to get there). It of course had a lot of things that were better (linearity, resolution, etc) but the slight lack of depth/pop still had me preferring CRT in general. I think that's changed now.

It's important to note that my new RS56 digital cost me 15-20 times what my CRT sold for on the used market. The Zenith 1200 is certainly a better 'deal' today than the RS56 or any other digital for that matter. Another way to look at it is that my new digital in 2012 cost about 1/5th what my CRT would have cost new in 2000.

People should check out both in their price range (if they can - not always easy) and use whatever they prefer.

Kal
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HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

HogPilot,
I wrote "native static CR" not on/off CR.
So the example of the BENQ example with the dynamic Iris doesn't contradict with what I said.

Firstly, you should probably define "native static CR" and tell me how that's different than On/Off or ANSI as it's an uncommon term - the way I read it, it sounds like an incredibly hard metric to quantify, and just as dependent upon the material used to measure it and the qualities of the room as the projector itself. But I'd prefer a definition before I go any more into that.

Secondly, you said this:

opv wrote:

ecrabb,
A 10 year old LCD projector, even before the dynamic Iris age, also has better ansi CR, better MTF and no high APL compression comparing to a CRT projector.
What does this teach us? that these parameters have very little effect on image quality compared with native static CR.

My question about your use of "native static CR" aside, I still take issue with the first portion in bold, as well as the underlined portion of the second bolded area. I didn't originally flesh out my contentions with the first bolded portion, so let me do that now: what you said about a 10 year old LCD having better ANSI CR and MTF than a CRT is, at best, such a vague and ill-defined comparison that it would be impossible to make. If you're simply assuming that any fixed-pixel display will have better MTF than a CRT, I highly suggest you read this article: MTF Revealed Part II. There's a LOT that determines the MTF of a given fixed-pixel projector: the quality of the optics, the display tech used, and even panel-alignment in a 3-chip machine. There are fixed-pixel displays out there that measure in the low 100's:1 in ANSI (CRT's realm), and there are some that measure over 1000:1, which is quite impressive. However, as a general rule, the average LCD projector available in 2003 wasn't even HD, had lots of SDE, and relatively poor contrast numbers regardless of which contrast you chose to measure. Even a "high-quality" LCD of the time wouldn't have been able to best a CRT in any way, except for maybe light output - and only at great expense to other aspects of PQ.

Which leads me to take issue with the underlined portion of your second statement: in the instance that I offered up, the Sim2 was close to 1000:1 whereas the BenQ was in the 400-500:1 range. The difference was starkly apparent on mid- to high-brightness content in a number of ways, with the Sim2 clearly outclassing the BenQ with that material in terms of perceived sharpness, picture detail, and image depth. Demonstrations like this very easily show that ANSI CR can increase by as little as a factor of 2 or 3 and yield significant gains in PQ. Increases in On/Off CR yield different PQ gains with different types of material, but it must occur in orders of magnitude for it to be noticeable. Paring random ANSI CRs and On/Off CRs and asking which combination would yield the best picture is a relatively useless endeavor as there's plenty more than just those two metrics that go into making a "good" picture (not to mention that the preferences of the viewer and the type of setup would have to be factored in as well), and each one measures a relatively different aspect of PQ anyways.

I have several buddies who just prefer the look of DLP over LCoS despite the latter's inherent On/Off benefits. They get a picture with less noise, more sharpness, better ANSI, and much better motion resolution; I get one with better black levels, higher On/Off, no noticeable pixel structure, and no RBE. We both like the benefits of the picture we get despite the drawbacks, and that's what matters in the end.
_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

Jeremy112

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject:

I see yet another CRT vs Digital thread that has been born. And crabb, in regards to my color post that you said WTF am I talking about. I am referring to the displays capability to reproduce the color spectrum. Afaik no digital display puts out 32-bit color depth, only 24-bit. If I'm using my Sony pearl vs. my XG on a computer signal staring at my desktop, I can easily see the lack of color in the digital PJ vs. the CRT. There are more visible colors in CRT tech than there is in any digital technology. Put any CRT next to a digital display and try to match the colors perfectly using a computer generated signal that's putting out 32-bit color depth. They will be close, but not quite. I admit I'm far from a professional when it comes to understanding the whole color reproduction crap with display tech, but I can notice the difference any day of the week. Calibrated or not. _________________ When I'm asking for a Model number, that doesn't mean I'm asking for a nude photo with your number on it

gjaky

Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:02 pm Post subject:

Jeremy112 wrote:

I see yet another CRT vs Digital thread that has been born.

And crabb, in regards to my color post that you said WTF am I talking about. I am referring to the displays capability to reproduce the color spectrum. Afaik no digital display puts out 32-bit color depth, only 24-bit. If I'm using my Sony pearl vs. my XG on a computer signal staring at my desktop, I can easily see the lack of color in the digital PJ vs. the CRT. There are more visible colors in CRT tech than there is in any digital technology.

Put any CRT next to a digital display and try to match the colors perfectly using a computer generated signal that's putting out 32-bit color depth. They will be close, but not quite.

I admit I'm far from a professional when it comes to understanding the whole color reproduction crap with display tech, but I can notice the difference any day of the week. Calibrated or not.

Jeremy, the 32bit color depth on a PC in reality only means 3x8bits (=24bit) RGB colors +8 bit transparency.
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HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:24 pm Post subject:

Jeremy112 wrote:

My RS55 can accept and reproduce 36-bit "deep color." Of course there's no movie that's encoded thusly unless you record one yourself, so it's mostly a useless feature.

Also an interesting aside, some of these new calibration tools that are allowing 125-point (or more) gamut corrections are making it apparent that the classic 6-point controls are woefully inadequate in dealing with many projectors' non-linear color reproduction. Two different projectors can be calibrated exactly to REC709 with a 6-point CMS and look quite different because the colors in between the calibrated points aren't also corrected. Without a much more comprehensive CMS, it's hard to attribute differences in color reproduction to display tech alone. I'm not saying it can't be a factor, but I also know there's far more to it than that.
_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

ecrabb
Forum Moderator

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject:

Jeremy112 wrote:

Put any CRT next to a digital display and try to match the colors perfectly using a computer generated signal that's putting out 32-bit color depth. They will be close, but not quite.

Which has exactly nothing to do with pixel depth. You can not visually tell the difference between a display with 24-bit depth and 32-bit depth, especially if, as Kal pointed out, the source is 24-bit. Like gjaky mentioned, 32-bit depth usually refers to 24-bit color depth with an 8-bit alpha channel. You can use 32-bit depth for high-color-gamut source material, but then you need the source material to use it.

What you're probably referring to are some of the artifacts (like banding or ringing) which are often in the source material, revealed by a good digital, possibly exacerbated by a low-end digital, but often hidden by any CRT but a sharp 9'inch. Even a good 8-inch machine like an XG or G70 is only resolve about half of BD's resolution. I couldn't believe how much more revealing my JVC is than my (very well set-up) G70. It was night and day - literally like the same step as going from my old 1271 to the G70.

HogPilot wrote:

Exactly. You beat me to it. You're absolutely right, but where the bit-depth can come in handy is in CMS/processors that are doing color scaling, transformation and gamma correction - especially in subtle transitions where eyes are sensitive. However, the source content - not the display - is still very much the limiting factor in overall system performance at this point.

SC

Jeremy112

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject:

Well at least I got 3 of you to comment! That's a personal best _________________ When I'm asking for a Model number, that doesn't mean I'm asking for a nude photo with your number on it

Jeremy112

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject:

And you all schooled me on that one! As I said, I really don't know much about the color aspect of displays. It really isn't something I've read up on, which is my mistake. I'm glad you all told me how it is though, at least I wont be posting like an ass _________________ When I'm asking for a Model number, that doesn't mean I'm asking for a nude photo with your number on it

Phoenixed

Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 514
Location: The mitten

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject:

Jeremy112 wrote:

I see yet another CRT vs Digital thread that has been born.
.

Usually happens every so often...wanna bet on how many pages it goes into? Cool

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