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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | Throw in a high performance video card and a couple of extra 7200 RPM sata drive and you'll double that. That's at idle. .
SC |
Not at idle. |
Yes, at idle. Depends on the video card, drives, and what you start with. Some video cards draw 20w-plus at idle. Add a couple of 7200 rpm drives sucking 10w ea at idle, and you're pretty close to doubling the original 50w.
SC
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | To me it's not just the cost either. We have more and more devices plugged in and drawing dead current all the time. It's amazing the amount of power we use for devices we aren't using at the time. Our house's dead loads have been increasing dramatically over the past 10+ years. We are wasting so much electricity...
craigr |
Exactly and that's how I got in theis power pissing contest. Craig, I live in a small Cape style home. Forced hot water heat by oil or gas (have both) Central A/C, a hot tub normal house stuff and a home theater. My average monthly electric bill was about $300.00. After dumping the 9" projector and all it's support equipment (used alot) my bill dropped almost a hundred bucks but still have a higher electric bill then those around me. Must have to many toys. When I go out to the garage to test the PE2800 I am also going to do a overall of my rack. Everything in the rack is plugged into a large UPS so I can check the rack as a whole and the devices by themselves. Now I'm on a mission 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | Changed my mind and did this PC next as the commercial server isn't connected to anything and is out in a smoking hot garage
I missed something in the first test that I should have looked at but didn't even notice until I plugged this one in..
This PC uses 11-12 watts just plugged in but not powered on YIKES
Powered up to a desktop and wait 10 minutes 130 watts
After vid card output shuts off 124 watts
That's it for this puppy. It uses more plugged in but shut off then the 390 does booted up in standby(with 4 hard drives). |
See now this is where youre going wrong and exactly what ive been saying since the start. Ill bet that 10-12 watts you are seeing is mostly reactive power, so its not watts its VA, which you quite likely dont pay for. And even if you did, its 100 hours in that state of rest before it even costs you 18.5 cents. Big deal, 18.5c for a few weeks?
| ecrabb wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | Throw in a high performance video card and a couple of extra 7200 RPM sata drive and you'll double that. That's at idle. .
SC |
Not at idle. |
Yes, at idle. Depends on the video card, drives, and what you start with. Some video cards draw 20w-plus at idle. Add a couple of 7200 rpm drives sucking 10w ea at idle, and you're pretty close to doubling the original 50w.
SC |
What did you use to measure it?
What really does make me laugh though is not one of you have put forward any proof or any qualifications what so ever despite being asked, yet youre still willing to argue!!!
| stefuel wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | To me it's not just the cost either. We have more and more devices plugged in and drawing dead current all the time. It's amazing the amount of power we use for devices we aren't using at the time. Our house's dead loads have been increasing dramatically over the past 10+ years. We are wasting so much electricity...
craigr |
Exactly and that's how I got in theis power pissing contest. Craig, I live in a small Cape style home. Forced hot water heat by oil or gas (have both) Central A/C, a hot tub normal house stuff and a home theater. My average monthly electric bill was about $300.00. After dumping the 9" projector and all it's support equipment (used alot) my bill dropped almost a hundred bucks but still have a higher electric bill then those around me. Must have to many toys. When I go out to the garage to test the PE2800 I am also going to do a overall of my rack. Everything in the rack is plugged into a large UPS so I can check the rack as a whole and the devices by themselves. Now I'm on a mission |
Thisll be interesting!! What kind of load is a UPS? Its inductive!!! And what have we just said about inductive loads and youre measurements?
And Craig, electricity is produced whether you use it or not, the more you use, the LESS is wasted. The generators still have to run above demand or when demand suddenly increases, voltage will drop considerably and frequency will be unstable. Every bit over demand is wasted energy, so use what you like, it sure is cheap enough over there.
Last edited by CasetheCorvetteman on Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | Changed my mind and did this PC next as the commercial server isn't connected to anything and is out in a smoking hot garage
I missed something in the first test that I should have looked at but didn't even notice until I plugged this one in..
This PC uses 11-12 watts just plugged in but not powered on YIKES
Powered up to a desktop and wait 10 minutes 130 watts
After vid card output shuts off 124 watts
That's it for this puppy. It uses more plugged in but shut off then the 390 does booted up in standby(with 4 hard drives). |
See now this is where youre going wrong and exactly what ive been saying since the start. Ill bet that 10-12 watts you are seeing is mostly reactive power, so its not watts its VA, which you quite likely dont pay for. And even if you did, its 100 hours in that state of rest before it even costs you 18.5 cents. Big deal, 18.5c for a few weeks?
| ecrabb wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | Throw in a high performance video card and a couple of extra 7200 RPM sata drive and you'll double that. That's at idle. .
SC |
Not at idle. |
Yes, at idle. Depends on the video card, drives, and what you start with. Some video cards draw 20w-plus at idle. Add a couple of 7200 rpm drives sucking 10w ea at idle, and you're pretty close to doubling the original 50w.
SC |
What did you use to measure it?
What really does make me laugh though is not one of you have put forward any proof or any qualifications what so ever despite being asked, yet youre still willing to argue!!! |
I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up
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crt king of black
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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"I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up"
Hey, I wasn't expecting to see it but it was there so I reported it. So to now re-cap. The amp meter is no good.
The watt meter is no good. Would you like me to hook up a Flux Capacitor in some configuration and test for time travel capabilities?
Even if the numbers are wrong, the procedure and findings are consistant. The Precision 390 will use the least amount of power to reform the task I request. the choice is made. END OF STORY. 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | "I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up"
Hey, I wasn't expecting to see it but it was there so I reported it. So to now re-cap. The amp meter is no good.
The watt meter is no good. Would you like me to hook up a Flux Capacitor in some configuration and test for time travel capabilities?
Even if the numbers are wrong, the procedure and findings are consistant. The Precision 390 will use the least amount of power to reform the task I request. the choice is made. END OF STORY. |
I needed a good laugh before I started a race on gran trusmio 5 thanks
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crt king of black
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | "I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up"
Hey, I wasn't expecting to see it but it was there so I reported it. So to now re-cap. The amp meter is no good.
The watt meter is no good. Would you like me to hook up a Flux Capacitor in some configuration and test for time travel capabilities?
Even if the numbers are wrong, the procedure and findings are consistant. The Precision 390 will use the least amount of power to reform the task I request. the choice is made. END OF STORY. |
Its not measuring true power, its measuring apparent power and that is why your readings are consistent. The watts you were seeing on the meter were not watts, they are VA. I know you don't understand, I know you probably never will, but you can trust me Chip, I wouldn't give you a bumsteer mate
So what reading did you get out of all the other gear anyway? 
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Every transformer that you have plugged into an electrical outlet in your house is always drawing current unless it has an actual hard off switch. I remember when TV's used to have actual off switches, not just soft off switches. So yeah, a lot of devices are using power even when they are turned off because their transformer is eating power and making it into heat. Then your air conditioner can also run a little more to cool off the heat from all your unused devices.
criagr
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Every transformer that you have plugged into an electrical outlet in your house is always drawing current unless it has an actual hard off switch. I remember when TV's used to have actual off switches, not just soft off switches. So yeah, a lot of devices are using power even when they are turned off because their transformer is eating power and making it into heat. Then your air conditioner can also run a little more to cool off the heat from all your unused devices.
criagr |
I remember when tvs had real off switches(I have a tv that was made in 1984 and has a real on/off switch)
I unplug my stuff when I ain't using it to prevent what I call "vampire draw" from the devices standby
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crt king of black
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | "I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up"
Hey, I wasn't expecting to see it but it was there so I reported it. So to now re-cap. The amp meter is no good.
The watt meter is no good. Would you like me to hook up a Flux Capacitor in some configuration and test for time travel capabilities?
Even if the numbers are wrong, the procedure and findings are consistant. The Precision 390 will use the least amount of power to reform the task I request. the choice is made. END OF STORY. |
Its not measuring true power, its measuring apparent power and that is why your readings are consistent. The watts you were seeing on the meter were not watts, they are VA. I know you don't understand, I know you probably never will, but you can trust me Chip, I wouldn't give you a bumsteer mate
So what reading did you get out of all the other gear anyway? |
Allrighty then. I just finished up HELL WEEK. Got almost 90 hrs of smoking hot HVAC work.
I tested the huge PowerEdge 2800 server. It starts booting up/self test at a hair short of 400 watts. It settled down to about 260 watts with nothing asked of it. It does have variable speed cooling fans that "ramp up" as it gets hotter inside. I did not wait for that.
Then I put the watt meter between the UPS and wall plug. All rack devices are plugged into it along with a host of devices that have "wall wart" power supplies. With everything set to standby (not counting the automation system which has to be left on) the rack is using 240 watts. With all on about 300 watts.
So the PowerEdge and this PC out outta here. That's about 400 watts right there. The Precision 390 will do double duty for way less then one of the others. I need to look at some form of rack power management. Perhaps some sort of externally controllable power strip so that non-essential devices can be completely shut off. My refridgerator is not "energy star " rated. I have not tested that yet
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | "I agree with case on this I haven't had a computer use any watts when turned off something doesn't add up"
Hey, I wasn't expecting to see it but it was there so I reported it. So to now re-cap. The amp meter is no good.
The watt meter is no good. Would you like me to hook up a Flux Capacitor in some configuration and test for time travel capabilities?
Even if the numbers are wrong, the procedure and findings are consistant. The Precision 390 will use the least amount of power to reform the task I request. the choice is made. END OF STORY. |
Its not measuring true power, its measuring apparent power and that is why your readings are consistent. The watts you were seeing on the meter were not watts, they are VA. I know you don't understand, I know you probably never will, but you can trust me Chip, I wouldn't give you a bumsteer mate
So what reading did you get out of all the other gear anyway? |
Allrighty then. I just finished up HELL WEEK. Got almost 90 hrs of smoking hot HVAC work.
I tested the huge PowerEdge 2800 server. It starts booting up/self test at a hair short of 400 watts. It settled down to about 260 watts with nothing asked of it. It does have variable speed cooling fans that "ramp up" as it gets hotter inside. I did not wait for that.
Then I put the watt meter between the UPS and wall plug. All rack devices are plugged into it along with a host of devices that have "wall wart" power supplies. With everything set to standby (not counting the automation system which has to be left on) the rack is using 240 watts. With all on about 300 watts.
So the PowerEdge and this PC out outta here. That's about 400 watts right there. The Precision 390 will do double duty for way less then one of the others. I need to look at some form of rack power management. Perhaps some sort of externally controllable power strip so that non-essential devices can be completely shut off. My refridgerator is not "energy star " rated. I have not tested that yet |
Simple amps x volts eg 120x 1 amp is 120 watts(this what my mini fridge uses but only when the compressor is running as it has no light)
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crt king of black
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Big E, a fridge is an inductive load, 120 volts X 1 amp is 120 VA, not watts.
| CIR Engineering wrote: | Every transformer that you have plugged into an electrical outlet in your house is always drawing current unless it has an actual hard off switch. I remember when TV's used to have actual off switches, not just soft off switches. So yeah, a lot of devices are using power even when they are turned off because their transformer is eating power and making it into heat. Then your air conditioner can also run a little more to cool off the heat from all your unused devices.
criagr |
Yes, some energy is wasted, but unless youre paying for your power factor which so far no one in the USA has ever said you do, the cost to run all these items is alot less than youre given them credit for, especially with how cheap your electricity costs are there. The air con comment is really out there, itll make pretty much no measurable difference. Unless you have measured it and can prove otherwise, cause i have Maybe if you get 20 of them it might raise the room temp but not enough that your air con will work harder for it.
In the past 3 years at work i have taken the power costs from $400,000 a year down to around $175,000 a year, i spent many years taking lots of measurements and testing alot of different "power saving" devices and methods that put quite simply, dont work. In my case i had power factor correction to work with cause big energy consumers in Australia do pay for excessive lag, and alot of the savings were made with a reduction of reactive power. This does not apply for domestic residences that dont pay for reactive power. There are still many things you can do, but they have less impact.
In my own home here i consume on average 4kW hours per 24 hour period, i have an onsite waste water treatment system that runs 24 hours a day, but its the only thing i couldnt resolve. In alot of cases most homes cant get down to that, Chip in your case at $200 a month i figure youve got ALOT of work to do and id start with heating and cooling and how its done in your home, cause youre wasting alot of power somewhere to be going through 35-40kW hours a day, at least youre down from the 50-55 kW hours a day you were using before. Does your home have a digital power meter that the power company reads or is it analog? Can it be easily read by you on a daily basis?
Id be interested to see a list of everything that draws power in your home there cause the amount youre using is very high ( in general, not just compared to my 4kW hours!! )
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Big E, a fridge is an inductive load, 120 volts X 1 amp is 120 VA, not watts.
| CIR Engineering wrote: | Every transformer that you have plugged into an electrical outlet in your house is always drawing current unless it has an actual hard off switch. I remember when TV's used to have actual off switches, not just soft off switches. So yeah, a lot of devices are using power even when they are turned off because their transformer is eating power and making it into heat. Then your air conditioner can also run a little more to cool off the heat from all your unused devices.
criagr |
Yes, some energy is wasted, but unless youre paying for your power factor which so far no one in the USA has ever said you do, the cost to run all these items is alot less than youre given them credit for, especially with how cheap your electricity costs are there. The air con comment is really out there, itll make pretty much no measurable difference. Unless you have measured it and can prove otherwise, cause i have Maybe if you get 20 of them it might raise the room temp but not enough that your air con will work harder for it.
In the past 3 years at work i have taken the power costs from $400,000 a year down to around $175,000 a year, i spent many years taking lots of measurements and testing alot of different "power saving" devices and methods that put quite simply, dont work. In my case i had power factor correction to work with cause big energy consumers in Australia do pay for excessive lag, and alot of the savings were made with a reduction of reactive power. This does not apply for domestic residences that dont pay for reactive power. There are still many things you can do, but they have less impact.
In my own home here i consume on average 4kW hours per 24 hour period, i have an onsite waste water treatment system that runs 24 hours a day, but its the only thing i couldnt resolve. In alot of cases most homes cant get down to that, Chip in your case at $200 a month i figure youve got ALOT of work to do and id start with heating and cooling and how its done in your home, cause youre wasting alot of power somewhere to be going through 35-40kW hours a day, at least youre down from the 50-55 kW hours a day you were using before. Does your home have a digital power meter that the power company reads or is it analog? Can it be easily read by you on a daily basis?
Id be interested to see a list of everything that draws power in your home there cause the amount youre using is very high ( in general, not just compared to my 4kW hours!! ) |
I meant to put va instead of watts(I was busy when I typed it)
I know the power use isn't much even though it keeps my drinks nice and cold for my home theater refreshment
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crt king of black
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
For SATA cards I just got an IBM ServeRAID M1015. It is based on the LSI SAS2008 chip. I cross flashed the M1015 to an LSI9211-IT without bios. This provides straight pass through with no boot option so it is perfect for software RAID, unRAID, or ZFS (no bios means faster boot times). You could also cross flash it to an LSI9211-IR for hardware RAID support. The card is available used on eBay or wherever for around $100 and supports 2x mini-SAS connections so 8x SATA drives. It also works with 3 and 4TB drives and should work with the coming 5TB drives just fine. Uses PCIe 8x and is very fast. I did a ZFS scrub with it yesterday on my array and was transferring at 400 MB/sec (took about 10 hours to scrub 12TB). It can also saturate my gigabit connection so running 3x HD streams around the house is no problem.
Here are instructions on cross flashing the card. Took me all of about 10 minutes:
http://www.servethehome.com/ibm-serveraid-m1015-part-4/
craigr |
Slightly off topic but... prices have gone up on these cards a little as they have become more popular with the at home server community.
I've wound up with an extra one, I have three and only need two, so I'm looking to sell one of my M1015 based cards. I can provide it with whatever firmware folks might want. I'd sell the card with full height mounting bracket, 2x SAS to SATA cables (8 total SATA connectors) for $130 plus shipping to wherever. If anyone is interested let me know.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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