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XetraXclusive
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: Marquee 9500 LC Ultra lenses |
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Hey Guys, are the HD-10GT17 the best and sharpest lenses for the 9500 LC Ultra?
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Hulio
Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 494
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Nope. The best lenses are HFQ900 (HD10E) followed by HD10F and than HD10GT17.
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Why you worry.. ? Do you have problems with your GT17.? How do you run your Marquee.? resolution/ video chain.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Marquee 9500 LC Ultra lenses |
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| XetraXclusive wrote: | | Hey Guys, are the HD-10GT17 the best and sharpest lenses for the 9500 LC Ultra? |
It really depends on the screen size, but out of the group of lenses that's used on the 9500. Here is how it works out:
The HFQ900 are the best all around (center, edges and all zones) on confirmed sizes normally found in HT use.
Now beyond the HFQ900 lens, some may find this hard to believe, but the HD10L's are the sharpest on screen sizes 80' wide and less.
On a 96' wide screen, the GT-17 has been confirmed to show better focus than the HD10F. They are clearly better on my 9500LC and I have both sets here to compare.
On lower resolutions, the 10F can appear to be sharper over the GT-17's, but when displaying higher resolutions, it becomes obvious which lens set does better. Someone else posted screenshots also showing what I found out, and their comparison was also at a higher resolution.
The whole lens thing had always been debatable. And on my setup, shooting for the most defined image is something I've been pursuing for at least the past ten years. My goal is to get a set of HFQ900 lenses. I've had a set here to confirm, and have also compared them to both GT-17's and 10F's, and that's why they are on my to get list. And since that has not happened yet, I've settled with the second best lenses for my 9500LC. And that's why I'm using the GT-17's for my 96' wide screen.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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-The HFQ900 was designed for the Barco 909 and is essentially a matched set of HD10E lens.
-The HD10F from a G90 is a notch below the HFQ900.
-The GT17 is very very close but not quite as good as the 10F.
-The 10L is only good up to a screen width of 71"; anything wider and the edge focus is compromised.
All of this is using 1080P source material.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Marquee 9500 LC Ultra lenses |
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[/quote]
Now beyond the HFQ900 lens, some may find this hard to believe, but the HD10L's are the sharpest on screen sizes 80' wide and less.
.[/quote]
Yes, I find this hard to believe!!! Are you talking 80 wide or diagonal? Specifics like this can throw someone off and force them to make a unwanted mistake.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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The 10L max width is 71" (it's on the VDC Appendix B for installation information). I have also tried both the 10F and 10L on my 80" wide screen (45" x 80" = 92" diag)
| Description: |
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Marquee Throw Distance.pdf |
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Marquee 9500 LC Ultra lenses |
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| digitalayon wrote: |
Yes, I find this hard to believe!!! Are you talking 80 wide or diagonal? Specifics like this can throw someone off and force them to make a unwanted mistake. |
width 80 inches..
| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | The 10L max width is 71" (it's on the VDC Appendix B for installation information). I have also tried both the 10F and 10L on my 80" wide screen (45" x 80" = 92" diag) |
Yes, VDC is using the same data they got from the Electrohome literature. And even with it being in the Electrohome literature, it was still not correct. Those specs came from the lens manufacturer, yet Electrohome sold a many Marquee
with the 10L lenses attached. And they were also spec'd in setups with much larger screen sizes than 7ft. And that is where I got my 80 inches from. It's a combination of 20 years direct experience with the Marquee, to include what Electrohome had also suggested for the Marquee and it's 10L lenses.
What was also in the Electrohome literature was to simulate the setup, opposed to following the specs. the reason for simulating the setup had a lot to do with the variations in the lenses and that the lenses may have been a little different on a Marquee opposed to what the lens Manufacturer suggested (theory). And that's why other than what was in the manual, anyone with any real experience with the Marquee knew that you had to setup the projector to the screen to determine the throw distance and to NOT follow the manual. Those Specs were supposed to be used only as reference.
The HFQ900 or 10E lenses you mentioned are NOT as you listed in your previous post. The HFQ900 lens is a VERSION of the 10E. Not sure where "matched set" came from, but I got my info on these lenses directly from Barco Technical Support Team.
Also, in order to properly test or compare lenses, you need to do so using a method to verify LP's. And when you're able to do that, it's then that you'll come to know what I meant in my comparison.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of what the spec sheet says I have tried both 10L and G90 10F lens on my 45" x 80" screen and the 10F is noticeable sharper at 1080p (and I'm fully resolving 1080P). I had Craig perfrom the color calibration and he said I had set up the focus as sharp as could be on a Marquee.
I say they are a matched set because it was Galen or someone else (where's Nash when we need him) who tested a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 and compared to some separately sourced HFQ900's and the set from the 909 displayed more consistent focus across all quadrants. Barco likely hand selected the individual HD10E lens with the tightest tolerances for use on their 909. Such a method would provide for the most consistent focus.
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but we got a new user here that has started 2 new subjects.. both regarding lenses.. Is it serious to argue whats the best lense without knowing what kind of setup this guy is using, and if the projector setup is perfect..
I would think that all the lenses mentioned here GT17 10F 10E HFQ900 dont make much difference if the rest of the setup is not quite perfect.
If he seriously want to know, there is plenty of threads on the subjects in here.. enought to confuse anyone looking for the ansver.. And digging up old argues or whos the best lens evaluator dont help much.. at least from where im standing.
Why not wait and see if he ever gets back to this thread and fill in the blanks.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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The OP said he was using a 9500LC ultra and my commentary was made assuming optimal mechanical set up and electronic focus. You are 100% correct that lens selection will not make a difference if set up is lacking.
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Decibel
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 904
Location: Roma - Italia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I've a unused set of HD180 lenses (HD10 GT-26 I suppose).
So they are right for very large screen 
What could be the just price for a set in perfect condition?
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Domenico (Barco fan!)
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Regardless of what the spec sheet says I have tried both 10L and G90 10F lens on my 45" x 80" screen and the 10F is noticeable sharper at 1080p (and I'm fully resolving 1080P). I had Craig perfrom the color calibration and he said I had set up the focus as sharp as could be on a Marquee |
It's very possible that a set of 10F's were sharper on your setup opposed to the 10L's. But be mindful that NOT every set of 10L's are the same. I tried to convey that in my previous post.
So let me post it again. There are difference in the 10L lenses, and that is why Electrohome said to simulate the setup, rather than follow the throw distance chart. And if you have the manual, that's in there!
| Quote: | | I say they are a matched set because it was Galen or someone else (where's Nash when we need him) who tested a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 and compared to some separately sourced HFQ900's and the set from the 909 displayed more consistent focus across all quadrants. Barco likely hand selected the individual HD10E lens with the tightest tolerances for use on their 909. Such a method would provide for the most consistent focus. |
So someone here on the forum tested a set of HQF900 lenses and determined they were a matched set. You know, I had inquired about that, and was told, that would only make sense if they did not have the adjustment knobs.
You speculate that Barco "likely" hand picked them, when I mentioned that I spoke directly to Barco on this matter, I can let you know they didn't hand pick anything. They ordered the lenses, put them on the projector and that's it. I could tell you a whole lot about the 909, being Barco trained on a few of their later products and a service tech on their 909.
| Quote: | | Hey Guys, are the HD-10GT17 the best and sharpest lenses for the 9500 LC Ultra? |
If you have a good set of GT-17 lenses, the only upgrade to make for better focus would be the HFQ900 or 10E lenses. If there is any difference between the 10F and GT-17's you would most likely not be able to notice it, nor would it be worth spending the extra money for. I have both GT-17's and 10F here, but I'm using the GT-17's on my setup. Which happens to truly resolve 1080P 60hz and 72hz.
So as mentioned, your setup would determine if you're ready for a next stage. And when that time comes, look for a set of HFQ900 or 10E lenses.
Last edited by mp20748 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Decibel wrote: | I've a unused set of HD180 lenses (HD10 GT-26 I suppose).
So they are right for very large screen
What could be the just price for a set in perfect condition? |
Probably not much. If someone is running a screen that big they are doing a blend or a stack. For the latter it might work but they would need 2 sets.
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I still dont understand it.. i have no idea if this guy is running a small or big screen, why not start a new subject with a fixed screen size projector and source, and then say whats the best lens for 1 specifik purpose..
What if the OP returns tomorow and tell you he is using a 63" wide screen, and all you Guys told him is to get a set of HFQ900
And 2nd he tells you he just have a DVD player with component out, and no ide how to adjust corner focus on a CRT.
I think this stuff if far more complex than just finding the right set of lenses and all is perfect.
I have not used CRT for long, and even after buying a Radiance XS+ Moome Card and trying to get the hang of this thing, i still dont think im at the ende of perfecting my mecanical setup enough to take full benefit of better lenses than my GT17.
CRT is for me more about the skills of the man using it than the actual projector.
Tell me if im wrong..
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Regardless of what the spec sheet says I have tried both 10L and G90 10F lens on my 45" x 80" screen and the 10F is noticeable sharper at 1080p (and I'm fully resolving 1080P). I had Craig perfrom the color calibration and he said I had set up the focus as sharp as could be on a Marquee |
It's very possible that a set of 10F's were sharper on your setup opposed to the 10L's. But be mindful that NOT every set of 10L's are the same. I tried to convey that in my previous post.
So let me post it again. There are difference in the 10L lenses, and that is why Electrohome said to simulate the setup, rather than follow the throw distance chart. And if you have the manual, that's in there! |
Yes I have the manual and realize that the appendix B is not a hard and fast rule which is why I posted my direct experience. I posted the appendix because it might be of some use to the OP and it's consistent with my experience and that of others.
Well that pretty much hits the nail on the head....there are variations of the 10E, 10F, 10L and probably the other models as well. Aside from any actual design variations, there also appears to be production/tolerance variations as evidence of the HFQ900 comparison I mentioned earlier. If we are going to travel down that path this whole discussion is likely a waste of time because that implies the end user would need to try multiple lens on their PJ to determine which works best for them.
It was not long ago that you thought the GT17 and 10F were the same lens. You changed your thinking on this after a photo was posted of a 10F next to a GT17 and the inner element curvatures were very different.
What is the difference between the HFQ900 and the HD10E...in other words, what exactly makes the HFQ900 a variation of the HD10E? A Barco rep saying that it's a variation but not providing any further details as to how/why doesn't constitute valid proof to refute my statement regarding matching which was based on end users results. It seems very odd that a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 would perform better than individually sourced HFQ900's.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | I still dont understand it.. i have no idea if this guy is running a small or big screen, why not start a new subject with a fixed screen size projector and source, and then say whats the best lens for 1 specifik purpose..
What if the OP returns tomorow and tell you he is using a 63" wide screen, and all you Guys told him is to get a set of HFQ900
And 2nd he tells you he just have a DVD player with component out, and no ide how to adjust corner focus on a CRT.
I think this stuff if far more complex than just finding the right set of lenses and all is perfect.
I have not used CRT for long, and even after buying a Radiance XS+ Moome Card and trying to get the hang of this thing, i still dont think im at the ende of perfecting my mecanical setup enough to take full benefit of better lenses than my GT17.
CRT is for me more about the skills of the man using it than the actual projector.
Tell me if im wrong.. |
To some degree Mike and I are getting more granular than perhaps is necessary regarding the HFQ900. All things being equal, the HFQ900 was designed to work optimally across the largest range of screen sizes and is widely considered to be the best focusing lens.
I spent countless hours (100+) learning how to tweak mechanical set up and geometry on my PJ; multiple set ups from scratch. To your point, until you get your mechanical set up/EMF/geometry skills to be top notch lens selection is not critical.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | "A Barco rep saying that it's a variation but not providing any further details as to how/why doesn't constitute valid proof to refute my statement regarding matching which was based on end users results. It seems very odd that a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 would perform better than individually sourced HFQ900'"s. |
You make such bold and profound statements indicating you have such abundance of experience with the HFQ900, when I doubt very seriously if you've even seen a set in action, or have any experience with them.
I consulted the Barco "Technical" department (not rep) to be more informed on some of the technical aspects of the lenses. My experience with the lens and set goes back to early 2000, but more around 2003. And if you searched on these lens on this or any other forum, you would find that it was I who first mentioned the merits of these lenses on the forums.
So when you mention "based on end users" be mindful, that I speak from confirmed (not speculated) data from the manufacturer, and I also come from at least 8 years of both field and bench experience on a Barco 909. So anything I have to say about the 909 and its lens come from either experience or direct from the manufacturer in one way of the other.
So no one is refuting anything, but to say that the manufacturer and the people who has had countless first hands hours of experience with this product, could possibly come second to those who has had a Barco 909 in their HT for the past few years is simply absurd.
The Technical Experts at Barco laughed when I asked about the lenses being matched.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | | "A Barco rep saying that it's a variation but not providing any further details as to how/why doesn't constitute valid proof to refute my statement regarding matching which was based on end users results. It seems very odd that a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 would perform better than individually sourced HFQ900'"s. |
You make such bold and profound statements indicating you have such abundance of experience with the HFQ900, when I doubt very seriously if you've even seen a set in action, or have any experience with them.
I consulted the Barco "Technical" department (not rep) to be more informed on some of the technical aspects of the lenses. My experience with the lens and set goes back to early 2000, but more around 2003. And if you searched on these lens on this or any other forum, you would find that it was I who first mentioned the merits of these lenses on the forums.
So when you mention "based on end users" be mindful, that I speak from confirmed (not speculated) data from the manufacturer, and I also come from at least 8 years of both field and bench experience on a Barco 909. So anything I have to say about the 909 and its lens come from either experience or direct from the manufacturer in one way of the other.
So no one is refuting anything, but to say that the manufacturer and the people who has had countless first hands hours of experience with this product, could possibly come second to those who has had a Barco 909 in their HT for the past few years is simply absurd.
The Technical Experts at Barco laughed when I asked about the lenses being matched. |
What did the Barco tech department declare as the technical differences between the HFQ900 and the HD10E?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
What did the Barco tech department declare as the technical differences between the HFQ900 and the HD10E? |
They didn't.
| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | It seems very odd that a set of HFQ900's directly off a 909 would perform better than individually sourced HFQ900's. |
who did this test and how did they do it.....but the most important question should be why would they do it.
It would only make sense to test and match lenses if they were made from different batches, years or versions. And that's not how they were purchased. And if made all at the same time on the same run, why would one be different from the other?
And are you trying to convince me that Barco hired people to open boxes and compare lenses to find the best match for the 909..
Do you have any idea what these PRECISION lenses would cost each from the manufacturer, and have you ever heard of a set of lenses from this same manufacturer not being equal to the others?
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