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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Unless it's the camera, it would appear there is a significant difference in the H resolving between 1080p/60 and 800p/72. Looks like a stock Marquee. |
Dont be to hard on the G90 1080P 60hz, i have to run true that resolution, adjust the focus and stuff.
But looking at the tube face, and the image its clear that it starts to role off at 155Mhz, and quite a lot of color shift.
I found this old shot of my lower right corner on the Marquee running standard with a 03VIM.
Resolution, not sure, but i guess its 1080P 60hz 162Mhz, thats around the lowest bandwidth i use on the marquee.
At least none of those shots i made have so much peaking as the 909, and still way better bandwidth performance.
Remember the sony might be limited from the old Moome card i use.
Last edited by stridsvognen on Tue May 13, 2014 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think the Moome v1 for the Sony is limited; I seem to remember reading recently how Craig and Mike worked on some BW improvements way back when the cards came out. I'm not knocking the G90, just found the differences between resolutions to be more noticeable than I anticipated. If you get your hands on the latest Sony card and Mike's mods it will be interesting to see what that looks like. Based on visual evidence thus far it would appear that a modded Marquee displays the best BW performance, followed by a stock G90 and then the 909.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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From what i have seen posted in here it looks like that the NEC belong among the Marquee and Sony G90 when comes to Bandwidth, so that leaves the 909 further down the ranking list.
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well guys....when I watch a movie I don't notice the limited Bandwidth.
But I will await what Greg will bring on improvement on BW when he finished the modification on rgb amp's. Until then I just enjoy my simu grade lugs, hfq900's, and the silence of my seos 919 sp 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | Well guys....when I watch a movie I don't notice the limited Bandwidth.
But I will await what Greg will bring on improvement on BW when he finished the modification on rgb amp's. Until then I just enjoy my simu grade lugs, hfq900's, and the silence of my seos 919 sp |
Actually i think your very wrong.. When you look a movie you are always looking bandwidth, but if you dont know how it can look, you dont know what your missing.
So its all about reference level. There is nothing better then the best you have seen, and none of us has seen it all.
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Ah you are right, I don't know what I am missing and I want to keep it that way because I'm happy with what I have. And as always there will be bigger better best. And for now I don't want a projector where I need to do many modifications before it will operate best, change leaking bellows or modifing fans to make it from a F18 to a F16. I think you are too focused on BW remember what Craig had to say about this:
| CIR Engineering wrote: | Guys the 1:1 pattern is very important and it gives you a good idea of the ultimate resolving power of a CRT projector. However, I think you are worrying about the 1:1 too much. I'm all for testing projectors using the 1:1, but rarely in real world video does it come into direct play.
The 1:1 pattern displays the ultimate resolving power when an edge is called for that goes from 100% black to 100% white. In real world video how often does this actually happen? If a video image has edges where a guys suit intersects his shirt, or where a bicycle wheel intersects a frame, or where a chair sits against a window, or the detail in the fabric in the chair, or anything else; you are not very often going from full black to full white. In most real world situations the absolute rise and fall time of the beam is not called for and the projector will be able to fully resolve this.
That's why 1080p looks better than lower resolutions on 9" projectors even though most can not 100% fully resolve 1080p. You are still resolving 1080p and you are fully resolving most of the content in a given image.
Everyone knows I am very keen on test patterns and work to an exacting engineering standard. However, at some point there is a limit to what a test pattern can tell you and you actually have to just look at the image on the screen and see how it is or how it compares to another example.
4k at 48Hz may look perfectly all right on a 909 without any modifications even though it will be no place close to fully resolving the content. The content will still contain more detail that the projector will try to reproduce up to its capabilities which may be adequate in most scene characteristics.
Also, there is almost zero 4k material available for consumers at this point unless you live in Japan where you can grab 4k OTA. The only 4k player that is available is the Sony streaming 4k player it it only can plug into a Sony 4k digital projector. The player also brings back not so fond memories of early HD-DVD players when they worked intermittently and were incredibly unreliable.
All that aside, I'd like to see honest photos of a Barco fully resolving 1080p with a 1:1 test pattern. I have never seen it.
craigr |
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. The image is simple amazing on a Cine 9. A person that has seen the image on all my projectors, digital and CRT was very impressed by the depth of the image. If you want perfect sharpness than see digital but it is also very dull and flat. My addiction to CRT has completely returned. Probably G90 is also amazing but that won't be because of the sharpness 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | Well guys....when I watch a movie I don't notice the limited Bandwidth.
But I will await what Greg will bring on improvement on BW when he finished the modification on rgb amp's. Until then I just enjoy my simu grade lugs, hfq900's, and the silence of my seos 919 sp |
Ok, so you dont want a crt you need to mod, what is it your douing with gregs stuff?
Ill say its easier to buy a G90 who have a decent performance, and just do a fan mod.
How much money have you used on your 909 and whats to come?
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | Exactly. The image is simple amazing on a Cine 9. A person that has seen the image on all my projectors, digital and CRT was very impressed by the depth of the image. If you want perfect sharpness than see digital but it is also very dull and flat. My addiction to CRT has completely returned. Probably G90 is also amazing but that won't be because of the sharpness |
Oh yes 
There is way more to great PQ than sharpness. In my case I would agree with your view about the depth of the image.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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What do you think creates the depth of image?
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | What do you think creates the depth of image? |
I can only think its the analog nature of CRT.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:24 am Post subject: |
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More important after a good initial setup is color calibration.
Even if my Cine9 will not resolve 1080p on 1:1 the picture is still beautiful.
For a bandwidth test you could also play with some Resolutions between
720p and 1080p. With 720p you can see it's perfectly resolved.
So maybe 817p is the way for some.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | | What do you think creates the depth of image? |
I can only think its the analog nature of CRT. |
It is not just black because my HD350 had very deep black after I calibrated with an i1 pro. I played with every gamma curve I could find but never ever have I seen depth or anything that comes close to it. Also the light is just different, it is flat dull light that in my opinion is the difficult to grasp quality of this CRT light coming from radiation in the vacuum. There is more than meets the eye
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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After that I tried different digital lamps UHP and Xenon and I found Xenon to be a lot better but now that I checked CRT there is no way back to Xenon. Just my honest experience without thinking to much about the scientific theorie just what I see after many many movies. And doing lots of calibrations also for friends.
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Francisco wrote: | Well guys....when I watch a movie I don't notice the limited Bandwidth.
But I will await what Greg will bring on improvement on BW when he finished the modification on rgb amp's. Until then I just enjoy my simu grade lugs, hfq900's, and the silence of my seos 919 sp |
Ok, so you dont want a crt you need to mod, what is it your douing with gregs stuff?
Ill say its easier to buy a G90 who have a decent performance, and just do a fan mod.
How much money have you used on your 909 and whats to come? |
Well have some modifications done by someone else is different then do a lot of DIY to a Marquee. And I was curious to see what could be improved as I wanted some improvements on picture noise and a better HDMI solution. BW wasn't a issue for me because for me the picture already was very 3dimensional with excellent depth, punch etc. I never have seen a modified 9500 and I bet it will beat the 909 but they didn't came across and the 919's did so that's why. And I love them especially the split pack because it's so silent. I did see the G90 with nearly new tubes and I have owned a G70 in the past. It's a really nice projector but PERSONALLY I prefer the Barco's 909, 1-because of the modulate build of the Barco. 2-Cine9 and Split packs can made more silent. 3-they don't come across that many in Europe as most simulators planetarium's etc. use Barco's
Then your last question...that's none of your business  But I don't mind, you know that Greg's modifications are around $1300,- see his website, and new tubes I would also bought for a marquee 9500 or G90. It's a hobby F*CK it that it cost money, what will you do with your money when you are dead in your coffin?
But I think since you are Hoarding high-end CRT's you should also buy a 909 or Cine9 modify it and make the ultimate comparison to see which projector will be the best. So keep up the good work mate! 
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Hey Greg is around $1300,- that is not so much. I am seriously going to consider that because MP does not seem to have much interest in Barco unfortunately.
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701s->runco933->8500ultra->cinemax->9500mp->919 splitpack + cinemax
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | Hey Greg is around $1300,- that is not so much. I am seriously going to consider that because MP does not seem to have much interest in Barco unfortunately. |
Figure that MP was actually a trained Barco service personel.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | Hey Greg is around $1300,- that is not so much. I am seriously going to consider that because MP does not seem to have much interest in Barco unfortunately. |
Figure that MP was actually a trained Barco service personel. |
Yes I do not want to give the wrong impression but he does not reply on PM anymore and he is not online for over a month now. I would like to work with him and offer my Barco as a test machine. But it might very well be that he is ill or even worse.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I think he had some mods already in the RGB chain, with some replaced transistors and similar things, which improved somewhat the bandwidth. But to me it seems no one found the key mod. that puts the 909's bandwidth in the same league with the Marquee and G90, maybe the custom barco video amp is the bottle neck, maybe not. If Greg's latest and best results would be so obvious this thread would be full with his pictures...
But except for minor things in the convergence system (which are computer controlled anyway -> not much you can do to it) and the relative low bandwidth, you can't do a conventional CRT projector much better.
But the G90 and the Marquee Ultra, or even the XG is on the edge as far as electronics go. The rest are tubes, lenses, setup abilities, personal preferences,
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Id say with P19LUG tubes, HFQ900s and everything working with them on an XG would reach incredible heights... For one the convergence system is considerably better than the Barco, which although very easy to set up, isnt as fine in adjustment size nor the sheer amount of adjustment points and steps...
*XG has 201 steps on every alignment and convergence setting, Barco has 99 steps on some, and alot less on others..
*XG has almost 200 individual points to assist the huge amount of other adjustments, the Barco has 81 in fine mode, and about 1/3rd the amount of alignment settings ( which can mean the 1% different between flawless and almost perfect ).
*To top it off, the XG has the same adjustments available on all three colours completely independent of each other, the Barco only has coarse point and fine point for blue and red, which adds alot of time to convergence.
*The Barco has about 3 internal test patterns, the XG has loads, and theyre all very useful ( not every source device can output a useable test pattern to converge or do astig with )
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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