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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Oh I know Mac your not picking. To be honest I don't know the real answer but larger just makes sense. But what do I know? I don't have anything larger than 12 anyhow. And most amps are not using all its available watts continuously anyhow.
But is it true what the one sheet says, no resistance, no capacitance and no inductance would be the ideal wire for speakers?
Because I know with Phono Cartridges some benefit from different capacitance and or resistance loads for them to sound there best.
i assume speakers would behave the same way as they are both coil derived devises. So that statement seems a bit odd to me.
Am I correct?
Athanasios
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Would you like the (we will say 200wpc) of your amplifier to be resisted during its transit to the speaker? Resistance makes it harder for power to get to the speakers, its like running through air, then running through a 4 foot deep pool of water, its a lot harder to run through the pool than the air because air has much less resistance. The same applies for electricity.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: |
| Part express wrote: | Gauge acceptability for run lengths are noted above in red. Pro Co’s recommendations are to use 16 gauge under
25 feet, 12 gauge under 100 feet, and if you can afford it, use 8 gauge everywhere. |
15 love. It's your serve.  |
Yeah, I saw that too, and chuckled some. It also shows those red numbers and 16 gauge up to 50'.
Of course this has nothing to do with possible amp damage. Quite the opposite actually.
Question for you, and think about it carefully.
If in your house you run 10 gauge wire and connect it to a device drawing 30 amps but install a 20 amp breaker, what happens?
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:00 am Post subject: |
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The breaker should trip...however the line could, in theory, heat up quite a bit also because of the resistance in the wire causing a longer time for the load to reach a level that will actually trip the breaker.
I see where you're going. But speakers in a home setting with a decent to good amplifier will not have this problem. Now if your talking about cheap [grade] receivers then that might be some issue as the control of the speaker will over load those cheap pieces of gear and do. Stand alone Amps not so much; which is what Jeff is using.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | The breaker should trip...however the line could, in theory, heat up quite a bit also because of the resistance in the wire causing a longer time for the load to reach a level that will actually trip the breaker.
I see where your going. But speakers in a home setting with a decent to good amplifier will not have this problem. Now if your talking about cheap [grade] receivers then that might be some issue as the control of the speaker will over load those cheap pieces of gear and do. Stand alone Amps not so much. |
Actually in this scenario the wire will not heat up since it is large enough to carry the load. But yes, the breaker will trip.
Now same scenario but reduce the wire size to 12 gauge which is 20 amp and 20 amp breaker but 30 amp draw. What happens?
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | dturco wrote: | The breaker should trip...however the line could, in theory, heat up quite a bit also because of the resistance in the wire causing a longer time for the load to reach a level that will actually trip the breaker.
I see where your going. But speakers in a home setting with a decent to good amplifier will not have this problem. Now if your talking about cheap [grade] receivers then that might be some issue as the control of the speaker will over load those cheap pieces of gear and do. Stand alone Amps not so much. |
Actually in this scenario the wire will not heat up since it is large enough to carry the load. But yes, the breaker will trip.
Now same scenario but reduce the wire size to 12 gauge which is 20 amp and 20 amp breaker but 30 amp draw. What happens? |
Instant trip of the breaker.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | dturco wrote: | The breaker should trip...however the line could, in theory, heat up quite a bit also because of the resistance in the wire causing a longer time for the load to reach a level that will actually trip the breaker.
I see where your going. But speakers in a home setting with a decent to good amplifier will not have this problem. Now if your talking about cheap [grade] receivers then that might be some issue as the control of the speaker will over load those cheap pieces of gear and do. Stand alone Amps not so much. |
Actually in this scenario the wire will not heat up since it is large enough to carry the load. But yes, the breaker will trip.
Now same scenario but reduce the wire size to 12 gauge which is 20 amp and 20 amp breaker but 30 amp draw. What happens? |
Instant trip of the breaker. |
COME ON...... you should know this. In this scenario the wire will overheat because the device is trying to draw more electrons then the wire can carry. The heat dissipation is excess electrons being expelled. As the wire gets hotter and the draw remains the breaker will eventually trip.
Do you agree?
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | dturco wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | dturco wrote: | The breaker should trip...however the line could, in theory, heat up quite a bit also because of the resistance in the wire causing a longer time for the load to reach a level that will actually trip the breaker.
I see where your going. But speakers in a home setting with a decent to good amplifier will not have this problem. Now if your talking about cheap [grade] receivers then that might be some issue as the control of the speaker will over load those cheap pieces of gear and do. Stand alone Amps not so much. |
Actually in this scenario the wire will not heat up since it is large enough to carry the load. But yes, the breaker will trip.
Now same scenario but reduce the wire size to 12 gauge which is 20 amp and 20 amp breaker but 30 amp draw. What happens? |
Instant trip of the breaker. |
COME ON...... you should know this. In this scenario the wire will overheat because the device is trying to draw more electrons then the wire can carry. The heat dissipation is excess electrons being expelled. As the wire gets hotter and the draw remains the breaker will eventually trip.
Do you agree? |
Of course I agree, I said the breaker would trip. I think you thought one thing and typed another.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Ok, good. But in the second scenario the resistance of the smaller wire delayed the tripping of the breaker. Now if the device that was drawing 30 amps was not constant and more intermittent then the resistance provided by the wire would prevent the breaker from tripping immediately and possibly prevent the trip at all. Do you agree?
Gotta go. Be back tomorrow.
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Not to change the direction of the thread but what about running four ( two pair) of 8 ohm speakers in parallel. ( 4 ohm ) Does that generate more heat in the speaker ? I know it makes the amp run warmer.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffslife wrote: | | Not to change the direction of the thread but what about running four ( two pair) of 8 ohm speakers in parallel. ( 4 ohm ) Does that generate more heat in the speaker ? I know it makes the amp run warmer. |
I have never heard of this scenario causing problems with the speakers themselves....
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ok so I run a full length of wire from the amp to each speaker. A guy I know runs one speaker wire to one speaker and then jumps off of that speaker to the second speaker beside it using a short length of wire. He says it works fine. I guess it would but for some reason it just seems "wrong" to me.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffslife wrote: | | Not to change the direction of the thread but what about running four ( two pair) of 8 ohm speakers in parallel. ( 4 ohm ) Does that generate more heat in the speaker ? I know it makes the amp run warmer. |
If your talking subs, and the amp is fine with a 4 ohm load then there is nothing wrong with it. It would even actually give you more bottom end.
If not subs then more questions come into play like crossovers and such....
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to try running the front channels at four ohms. I got four speakers, I figure why not give it a shot. Well......
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffslife wrote: | | I was going to try running the front channels at four ohms. I got four speakers, I figure why not give it a shot. Well...... |
I'm assuming these are multi speakers in each box. So if the ohm impedance at the wire connectors is 8 or more ohms, then fine. Also providing your amp will drive at 4 ohms. Is there a selector switch or menu setting for 4 or 8 ohm? Or the manual says just connect?
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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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You assume correctly. The amp doesnt have any problem with 4 ohms, I am running the fronts off the Crown 202.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffslife wrote: | | You assume correctly. The amp doesnt have any problem with 4 ohms, I am running the fronts off the Crown 202. |
Roger that. Then by all means, continue.......
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of electricity, I have to redo the wiring for my home theater, Im going to put a separate sub panel in just for the rack and have a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the HT receiver, and then the rest of the equipment will be on a separate circuit.
My Denon draws 15 amps of juice at a full load, on seems logical it should have its own breaker all for itself. Its the only thing I dont have a power conditioner for since I dont have a conditioner that would last very long with it on there. When I turn that baby on she drawes some juice (or so says the little meter on the conditioners).
Proper power from the wall makes as much of a difference as what you do with the rest of the system after the component. A good power source makes a happy equipment rack
So much to consider when putting everything together, gotta love home theater 
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I've thought about the power setup in my theater. I would really need to invest in something more strategic if I were to get everything on it. Right now I have dedicated twin 20A circuits. One of them feeds into a Panamax. Coming off this is a battery backup just for the projectors in order to protect against brown/blackouts. The only thing not plugged directly into the Panamax is the Emotiva XPA-5 and the sub.
My entire basement is wired to a sub-panel, with the exception of the heat pump. Now that I think about it I suppose I could install an isolation transformer at the sub-panel junction. Still, sometime I feel like maybe I should FrankenCurt the Denon to kill its internal amplifiers as they are not used. Of course, maybe they aren't doing the panel any harm.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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