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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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so I got a local referral to a guy wanting to set-up his first HT space. I can do a 8inch em focus pretty cheaply with Moome mux HD.
Or, go with a JVC. I remember them blowing out RS45's for less than $3K, so what's a bottom dollar number currently for a 2013 RS machine with DC powered bulb.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I paid $5K for my XG eleven year ago. That's about $450/year TCO and I'm still using it. Not bad...Bet I don't have that kind of luck with the next projector.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | I paid $5K for my XG eleven year ago. That's about $450/year TCO and I'm still using it. Not bad...Bet I don't have that kind of luck with the next projector. |
Depends highly on how how you buy and how long you keep it.
I paid $2200 for my RS45. Nice RS1's and RS2's are still going for >$1000-$1250. Worst case, I keep my RS45 for two years, put a new bulb in it and sell it for $1500, and my TCO is $500/year. If I keep it for 18 months, and sell it for $1500 without replacing the bulb, my TCO is around $450 or so per year. I'm being conservative, too... I could probably sell my RS45 now, six months after buying, for nearly what I paid for it, yielding nearly a zero TCO - even with the new models shipping.
SC
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I would not recommend CRT to anyone unless they really like to mess around with it, or know someone thats always ready to help if by accident getting some adjustment or whatever messed up.
I would go with the cheapest JVC you can find.. RS40 i'm sure will do fine, Same lamp as RS45.. just remember to tell him the price of the lamp, and to change it every 1000 hours + - some.
The JVC is for sure 1000% easier to install and less noise heat space.. bla bla bla..
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KellenerSptM5
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
I would not recommend CRT to anyone unless they really like to mess around with it, or know someone thats always ready to help if by accident getting some adjustment or whatever messed up.
I would go with the cheapest JVC you can find.. RS40 i'm sure will do fine, Same lamp as RS45.. just remember to tell him the price of the lamp, and to change it every 1000 hours + - some.
The JVC is for sure 1000% easier to install and less noise heat space.. bla bla bla.. |
Exactly, at this point in time I wouldn't suggest CRT to anyone unless they were actively seeking it out and knew what they were getting into. Technology has advanced far enough that the newest digitals are on par, if not better, then most CRTs.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| KellenerSptM5 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
I would not recommend CRT to anyone unless they really like to mess around with it, or know someone thats always ready to help if by accident getting some adjustment or whatever messed up.
I would go with the cheapest JVC you can find.. RS40 i'm sure will do fine, Same lamp as RS45.. just remember to tell him the price of the lamp, and to change it every 1000 hours + - some.
The JVC is for sure 1000% easier to install and less noise heat space.. bla bla bla.. |
Exactly, at this point in time I wouldn't suggest CRT to anyone unless they were actively seeking it out and knew what they were getting into. Technology has advanced far enough that the newest digitals are on par, if not better, then most CRTs. |
Be careful, such utterances can get you stoned by the mob around here 
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | KellenerSptM5 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
I would not recommend CRT to anyone unless they really like to mess around with it, or know someone thats always ready to help if by accident getting some adjustment or whatever messed up.
I would go with the cheapest JVC you can find.. RS40 i'm sure will do fine, Same lamp as RS45.. just remember to tell him the price of the lamp, and to change it every 1000 hours + - some.
The JVC is for sure 1000% easier to install and less noise heat space.. bla bla bla.. |
Exactly, at this point in time I wouldn't suggest CRT to anyone unless they were actively seeking it out and knew what they were getting into. Technology has advanced far enough that the newest digitals are on par, if not better, then most CRTs. |
Be careful, such utterances can get you stoned by the mob around here |
<mob>You want I should take care of 'dis guy?</mob>
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I would recommend going with the digital unless you are going to service the CRT for him. The potential downside to the JVC is if something goes wrong are you on the hook?
Mike,
You definitely got the CRT steal of the century when AVS was blowing them out. As Crabb said, people in the know like a lot of us can upgrade digitals every year or three and still have a low TCO.
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J Kildare
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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The 2 questions that come to mind...
1) Is there any chance of a move in his future?
2) Is he prepared for the learning curve or are you going set it up etc.?
I know in the last 6 months the other site was blowing out "B" stock 45s for $2200 and $40s for $1800. ( I think these came with warranty as well).
If by chance that $1800 projector packs it in in a couple of years I would think another could be purchased for the same or less putting just over the $3000 mentioned. Of course there is always spot kill etc with CRT, most board are 10 years or older and loose some of there tolerances.
I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models. Of course even this is not a big issue if you have auto calibration.
But as you say he's not a videophile.
Edit:
That other site also had the Sony 95 for $3200 not "B" stock IIRC a couple of months ago.
| draganm wrote: | so I got a local referral to a guy wanting to set-up his first HT space. I can do a 8inch em focus pretty cheaply with Moome mux HD.
Or, go with a JVC. I remember them blowing out RS45's for less than $3K, so what's a bottom dollar number currently for a 2013 RS machine with DC powered bulb. |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| J Kildare wrote: | I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models.
But as you say he's not a videophile. |
My experience with non-enthusiasts is that all they see is a big picture. They don't notice anything else so colour tracking issues are irrelevant. As long as it "works" and picture is "big", they're impressed.
Kal
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J Kildare
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | J Kildare wrote: | I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models.
But as you say he's not a videophile. |
My experience with non-enthusiasts is that all they see is a big picture. They don't notice anything else so colour tracking issues are irrelevant. As long as it "works" and picture is "big", they're impressed.
Kal |
Can't argue with that. 
In a way it's kind of sad that a lamp can dim 20-50% in a couple of hundred hrs and people not notice or care. I just wanted to point it out so if Draganm is giving pros and cons, depending on how much of an enthusiast his potential customer is could and should be considered a con.
Jim
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | J Kildare wrote: | I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models.
But as you say he's not a videophile. |
My experience with non-enthusiasts is that all they see is a big picture. They don't notice anything else so colour tracking issues are irrelevant. As long as it "works" and picture is "big", they're impressed.
Kal |
True.. And then there is many options.. I think i would think about cheeper solutions in that case.. Epson or stuff like that with plenty of light output.. possible more impressive to someone not knowing about black colors convergence and stuff..
JVC have to be considered in the digital projector elite, They are not perfect, far from, but with nerds like many of us, it can provide impressive picture with the right amount of dedication equipment and time.. No matter if its the RS40 or RS66..
But for sure no matter what, it wont be a cheep toy.. With lamp cost, calibration, quality screen and stuff..
Ill say dont buy JVC unless you care about picture, and want to dedicate a room to take advance of the good black level and contrast. And pare it with nice equipment..
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| J Kildare wrote: | | I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models. |
I seem to notice a fair amount of discussion in the other forum about flicker, due to uneven arc burn. Not on all lamps, and not even all the time, but an issue. And on some it doesn't appear right away. They think they're fine, then at a certain hour usage, the problem crops up.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I would recommend going with the digital unless you are going to service the CRT for him. The potential downside to the JVC is if something goes wrong are you on the hook? |
definitely NOT I don't know how I would be expected to be responsible for a brand new projector from a large corporation, that' up to JVC, I would warranty the 9PGX for 6 months, repair or replace, but that's it.
I don't think they're planning to move, I doubt it if he installing a HT. I would definitely be hanging the 9PGX, setting up the picture , convergence etc. It seems from my e-mails the homeowner is really concerned about the size of the CRT, even though it's 20% smaller than a marquee. If he could get an RS40 for $1800. bucks then that seems really appealing.
| J Kildare wrote: | In a way it's kind of sad that a lamp can dim 20-50% in a couple of hundred hrs and people not notice or care. I just wanted to point it out so if Draganm is giving pros and cons, depending on how much of an enthusiast his potential customer is could and should be considered a con.
Jim |
this is something I'm confused by. If Kal and others are choking the sh*t out of the lamp out of the box just to keep from being blinded, then why can't you just open the Iris a little after 250 hours?
I am fairly sure this person is not a videohpile, or an audiophile. Which is good really, makes things easier. The reason I want the JVC and not the Epson is not so much picture but reliability. The cheap digitals are just crap and I don't want any problems.
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | | J Kildare wrote: | | I think the biggest downfall in the 40 & 45 is the lamp reliability and color tracking over time, which I really hope they have corrected to some degree with the new models. |
I seem to notice a fair amount of discussion in the other forum about flicker, due to uneven arc burn. Not on all lamps, and not even all the time, but an issue. And on some it doesn't appear right away. They think they're fine, then at a certain hour usage, the problem crops up. |
1 year ago when i was messing around with my RS50/ X7, and JVC did not answer any questions, and no calibrator wanted to comment on the JVC projectors, i contacted ISF.. And they were the only one writing back and actually supported me with facts and experience. They told me possible calibration tolerances, and recommended to change lamps every 500 hours on all lamp based projectors for optimal performance.
It also support my experience that 500 hours then the best days of the lamp is over..
Have anyone here ever seen any JVC Sony or other lamp based projectors with 1000+ hours calibrated with a result close to a new lamp.?
Many will say, mine run 1500hours it looks fine.. but they dont have any clue what its supposed to look like..And they might be left with 6fl..without complaining.
Those who like perfection, calibrate and change lamp when needed.. But lots of JVC users never even calibrate, or know what they are looking at.. They will run way pass any lamp warranty, almost always on the time limit.. how many use the projector enough to have a chance to get a new lamp for free.. Almost none.. And why should JVC care about the few that do complain later when they already released a new model..
In the end they actually make some of the best products of that kind, no matter how sh*tty they support it later.
In that light i found CRT, and today my Vidikron vision One is my reference.. But thats just for crazy people like me..
But ill not recommend anyone CRT unless they are ½ crazy, and to buy JVC you need to be ½ rich..
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | It also support my experience that 500 hours then the best days of the lamp is over. |
That seems a bit harsh. Possibly true, but still harsh.
| Quote: | | Have anyone here ever seen any JVC Sony or other lamp based projectors with 1000+ hours calibrated with a result close to a new lamp.? |
If by "close to a new lamp" you're including light output, then obviously not.
However, it's my impression that if you've recalibrated to account for spectral shift, and opened the iris setting to compensate for the drop in bulb brightness, and you don't have too large a screen, then yes, you can have results very similar to a new bulb, for the majority of its service life.
But have I seen it? No.
And you're likely asking the wrong group of people. While many CRTers may be considering a switch, or have already done so, probably only a handful have ever logged 1,000 hours on their digital PJ. I'm sure there are many who have, but they frequent a different forum.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | i contacted ISF.. And they were the only one writing back and actually supported me with facts and experience. They told me possible calibration tolerances, and recommended to change lamps every 500 hours on all lamp based projectors for optimal performance.
It also support my experience that 500 hours then the best days of the lamp is over..
Have anyone here ever seen any JVC Sony or other lamp based projectors with 1000+ hours calibrated with a result close to a new lamp.?
Many will say, mine run 1500hours it looks fine.. but they dont have any clue what its supposed to look like..And they might be left with 6fl..without complaining. |
It's amusing that you mention that. There are similar recommendations in place for movie theaters, and many/most would continue to run with old, weak bulbs, well past their recommended life. While the picture got dimmer and dimmer.
So those guys you referred to above at home, left with only 6 fL, can say they're doing things "just like the real theaters".
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- Tim
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well it seems like there is quite a lot changing to JVC on this forum, and it could be interesting if some could help keeping track of calibration drifting over time, and how the lamp is dimming..
I think i'm the only one ever asked the question about temperature drifting on the gray scale/ gamma on the JVC, what i think is the most annoying, so in my book less than 1 hour of pre heating is not enough to me, and 2 hours optimal. i'm picky yes.. I uploaded the calibration files here once documenting the drifting over 340 min, that shows extreme changes the first 60 min, no one comment it, and i find it quite weird that no one is curious to do the same to other new JVC models..
I put 200 hours on my new lamp, and all looks great, only opened the iris a few steps, using a 90" screen max 18fl calibrated.
I think that it might fit with 500-700 hours and the iris will be fully open, and from there no more headroom. I prefer around 12fl in my room.
i'm might put my RS50 in another room for the children or something to put some hours on it, and i will document and keep you updated if interested.. But i doubt many are interested, i feel most people here protecting the investment, and lost the critical angle.
I also was thinking about playing with the filter in front of the lamp.. Or at least i belive its a filter, i think thats where the biggest change is on the different JVC lamps.
I prefer facts. And would love if anyone would like to have a JVC calibration thread here. And document different models and see if there is a lot of difference between models.
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