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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | I think he means the startup time. My RS56 projects no image (black) for approximately the first minute or two after you turn it on before it displays the source signal. I'm assuming it's time required to allow the bulb to warms up and stabilize (?).
You don't need to do anything during this time. I'm usually staring at the DVD/Blu-ray shelves during this time trying to figure out what to watch. Or getting a beer. Or both. 
My Barco did start projecting an image immediately upon turn-on but still took a good 5-10 minutes to lock in convergence. (That's considered pretty fast - my previous Barco 800 took a 30 minutes even after I re-capped the entire. The re-capping simply make the convergence stable once it was done warming up - prior to recapping it would take 30 mins to stop drifting but would always end up at slightly different places).
Overall the RS56 gives me a stable picture considerably faster.
Kal |
Yes Kal, that is what I meant. You guys can spin this all day long but getting any sort of picture always, always trumps getting nothing at all but blackness. For watching movies, no big deal but for other uses like surfing internet and watching OTA, the difference becomes annoying to me. I'm probably more sensitive to this than you younger guys as this is an unpleasant memory for me. The days of vacume tube televisions where I remember waiting forever just for the pleasure of sound let alone a picture to watch. And I remember solid state as such a welcome advancement where we could finally just pull the on knob and presto, an instant picture! So the only difference I am seeing here is that we are waiting for a freekin specialized bulb to warm up instead of the vacume tubes.
I'm not going to say this is a big deal. But the Barco was clearly a superior performer on the startup I will miss that for awhile.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Get a remote control like mine and turn your system on a few minutes before you go down to watch a movie. I did it with my CRT to stabilize convergence, and I do it with the JVC to get the image and bright picture. I walk in the room and lights are already on, and the system is one, ready to watch a movie. For my use, in practice, the two projectors function identically.
SC
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comment SC, but here is something I am still wondering. If I am surfing the internet and I have to go away for 15 minutes (but know I will be returning again), is it better to shut the bulb down and restrike it again. Or is it better, more cost effective to leave it up and running? Which further begs the question of the length of time I am better to shut it down vs leave it up and running?
With the Barco it was a no brainer. Leave the computer up but kill the power to the projector.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| RVonse wrote: | Thanks for the comment SC, but here is something I am still wondering. If I am surfing the internet and I have to go away for 15 minutes (but know I will be returning again), is it better to shut the bulb down and restrike it again. Or is it better, more cost effective to leave it up and running? Which further begs the question of the length of time I am better to shut it down vs leave it up and running?
With the Barco it was a no brainer. Leave the computer up but kill the power to the projector. |
For 15 minutes, I'd absolutely leave it running. You age the bulb much more by putting another strike on it - as well as another cool-down/warm-up cycle - than you do by leaving it on for such a short period of time.
For me personally, if I'm going to be away for an hour or less, I'll just leave the pj on. One of the primary mechanisms of bulb dimming is metallic residue that's deposited on the inside of the bulb glass every time you strike the bulb. That, and you add another wear point to the electrodes every time you strike the bulb.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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Audiophile
Joined: 23 Jun 2012
Posts: 29
Location: Manassas, VA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | RVonse wrote: | Thanks for the comment SC, but here is something I am still wondering. If I am surfing the internet and I have to go away for 15 minutes (but know I will be returning again), is it better to shut the bulb down and restrike it again. Or is it better, more cost effective to leave it up and running? Which further begs the question of the length of time I am better to shut it down vs leave it up and running?
With the Barco it was a no brainer. Leave the computer up but kill the power to the projector. |
For 15 minutes, I'd absolutely leave it running. You age the bulb much more by putting another strike on it - as well as another cool-down/warm-up cycle - than you do by leaving it on for such a short period of time.
For me personally, if I'm going to be away for an hour or less, I'll just leave the pj on. One of the primary mechanisms of bulb dimming is metallic residue that's deposited on the inside of the bulb glass every time you strike the bulb. That, and you add another wear point to the electrodes every time you strike the bulb. |
The JVCs have a picture mute function just like CRT projectors. The button is labeled "hide" on the remote. I use this when I will be away an hour or two but still want to watch some more movies. The lamp is still energized, the lens cover is open, but the picture is muted. The status LED also blinks green.
As for which starts faster, the JVC is slower to start than the CRT projectors I have used, but as others have said the picture from the CRT projectors was never 100% spot on during the first few minutes of use anyhow. 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Audiophile wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | RVonse wrote: | Thanks for the comment SC, but here is something I am still wondering. If I am surfing the internet and I have to go away for 15 minutes (but know I will be returning again), is it better to shut the bulb down and restrike it again. Or is it better, more cost effective to leave it up and running? Which further begs the question of the length of time I am better to shut it down vs leave it up and running?
With the Barco it was a no brainer. Leave the computer up but kill the power to the projector. |
For 15 minutes, I'd absolutely leave it running. You age the bulb much more by putting another strike on it - as well as another cool-down/warm-up cycle - than you do by leaving it on for such a short period of time.
For me personally, if I'm going to be away for an hour or less, I'll just leave the pj on. One of the primary mechanisms of bulb dimming is metallic residue that's deposited on the inside of the bulb glass every time you strike the bulb. That, and you add another wear point to the electrodes every time you strike the bulb. |
The JVCs have a picture mute function just like CRT projectors. The button is labeled "hide" on the remote. I use this when I will be away an hour or two but still want to watch some more movies. The lamp is still energized, the lens cover is open, but the picture is muted. The status LED also blinks green.
As for which starts faster, the JVC is slower to start than the CRT projectors I have used, but as others have said the picture from the CRT projectors was never 100% spot on during the first few minutes of use anyhow. |
FWIW, as you pointed out the ONLY thing that the mute function does is display a black screen. The bulb is still on and producing light, but none of that energy is being allowed to exit the projector - it is all being absorbed inside and the projector has to work harder to cool itself for an extended period of time. The video mute button is okay for short periods of time, but personally I'd guard against using it for extended periods so as to avoid extra thermal stress on the projector. I haven't seen any technical data on the subject, but it's been discussed over at AVS before and that seemed to be the consensus amongst some of the more knowledgeable people.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | For 15 minutes, I'd absolutely leave it running. You age the bulb much more by putting another strike on it - as well as another cool-down/warm-up cycle - than you do by leaving it on for such a short period of time. |
+1 to this.
I only turn it off if it's going to be more than 1-2 hours.
| Audiophile wrote: | | The JVCs have a picture mute function just like CRT projectors. The button is labeled "hide" on the remote. I use this when I will be away an hour or two but still want to watch some more movies. The lamp is still energized, the lens cover is open, but the picture is muted. The status LED also blinks green. |
Been wondering about this myself. With CRT projectors the phoshor wears as it is excited by the electron beam so it makes sense to "mute" (blank) the picture with a CRT projector but leave the projector on. This is what I used to always do on my CRT projectors. While the tubes would last for about 10,000 hours of projecting an image, the chassis was always good for 5-10 times that.
Now with digital the bulb is always on 100% even when you "mute" the picture. All you're telling it to do is display the colour black which in fact is telling the projector to try and block as much light from the bulb as possible. I wonder if this is the right thing to do?
My physics classes are a bit too far removed but from what I remember light can product heat. The visible spectrum maybe not as much as, say, infrared, but I think it still does. I also don't know what spectrum of light these bulbs output.
So my question is: Are you sure we want to block the light from coming out of digital projector? Wouldn't it be better to display an all-white screen (instead of all black) so that all light is allowed to pass? Light that is blocked bounces around and some extra heat has to be produced. It may be negligible however. When I go away for a 1-2 hours I've purposely NOT been muting the picture but allowing it to continue to display a signal. I've also turned off the screen saver feature in my PS3 for this reason.
EDIT: I see HogPilot actually answered this... I didn't read far enough ahead...
Another question: Do LCoS panels have any sort of memory retention? Plasma and CRT are prone to burn in so we don't want to leave the same image up for hours and hours on end, LCD, DLP, and LCoS do not, but I wonder if image retention or "memory" is an issue such that displaying a moving picture is better than static. If memory is an issue it's probably extremely negligible but I'm curious anyway... (I'm sure it's been discussed over at AVS).
Kal
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Another question: Do LCoS panels have any sort of memory retention? Plasma and CRT are prone to burn in so we don't want to leave the same image up for hours and hours on end, LCD, DLP, and LCoS do not, but I wonder if image retention or "memory" is an issue such that displaying a moving picture is better than static. If memory is an issue it's probably extremely negligible but I'm curious anyway... (I'm sure it's been discussed over at AVS).
Kal |
Generally speaking, no. As with LCD, extreme, long-term abuse can lead to image retention, but we're talking thousands and thousands of hours of displaying a static images which cause the polymers in each pixel to retain some of their orientation after the charge is removed. Not that I'd recommend it, but you could probably leave a static image on your RS56 while you go on a 2 week vacation, and it would be just fine when you got back.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | kal wrote: | | Another question: Do LCoS panels have any sort of memory retention? |
Generally speaking, no. As with LCD, extreme, long-term abuse can lead to image retention, but we're talking thousands and thousands of hours of displaying a static images which cause the polymers in each pixel to retain some of their orientation after the charge is removed. Not that I'd recommend it, but you could probably leave a static image on your RS56 while you go on a 2 week vacation, and it would be just fine when you got back. |
I wouldn't recommend it either, based on real-world use of a 37" LCD display myself, some years ago. It was one I had monitoring HD cable recordings to D-VHS all day, with the sound muted most of the time. It never occurred to me that there was a red Mute icon on-screen during those periods, but I eventually noticed it was there ALL the time, even when the sound wasn't muted.  The panel brightness was quite low, and not cranked at all (darkish room, w/o direct sunlight).
It went away eventually, after I stopped the practice, but it took a rather long time. Lesson learned, that LCDs CAN in fact experience burn-in, even with low-intensity static images. Whether it would be possible to abuse one so badly that it would never recover, I don't know. But I do know that I had to live with an unpleasant visual artifact for quite a while, that was a reminder of something "not to do".
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have the Off Timer set to 3 hours on mine, the thought being that if I watch a movie with the kids, then leave it on while I'm putting kids to bed and accidentally fall asleep myself, I won't accidentally leave it on overnight, a day, etc. When it hits the limit, it pops up a warning on-screen, and you have 60 seconds to press OK to reset, or it powers down.
I've used pic mute (I'm sure there is some heat absorption difference, but it may or may not be significant), but I've also just switched the source to satellite and let it play a TV program.
SC
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Kal, does your JVC go completely black in scenes with absolute blacks in it, just like a CRT would? If it does, but the overall picture throughout the movie does not show blacks like CRT would, it still would be enjoyable to me I think, because it takes some time for the eye to adjust from going bright to absolute black. Consequently the room appears to be darker than it really is in those scenes. But that rarely happens in a movie, in opening credits mostly. But personally that is exactly what I like most about CRT, or when you can’t see your hand in from you. Do you still get that feeling with your new JVC?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | Kal, does your JVC go completely black in scenes with absolute blacks in it, just like a CRT would? |
Yes and not. To quote my first post:
"So how is the actual black level (16)? Better than my Zenith 1200 CRT projector. Yes, that's right. Better. Why? I can get darker with the RS56 without losing low level detail. On the Zenith 1200 (gamma set to around 2.2 or 2.3 if I remember correctly with an RTC2200 box) I have to turn brightness up slightly to avoid losing close to black detail. With a Radiance or something more advanced that provides 20-point gamma adjustment, I may have been able to keep black lower on the CRT without crushing close to black detail. I don't know. So while I say the RS56 has better blacks on my setup, both are fantastic. You don't notice elevated blacks on either. I was worried about black level on the RS56 but my fears are unfounded."
| Quote: | | If it does, but the overall picture throughout the movie does not show blacks like CRT would... |
A digital actually does better with inter-scene (ANSI) blacks than CRT since there's less light bouncing around inside. In other words: The best you get with CRT is LC coupled lenses. Put a white square up on a black screen and it still washes out the rest of the image slightly on a CRT. On a digital (at least this one) it does not.
| Quote: | | But personally that is exactly what I like most about CRT, or when you can’t see your hand in from you. Do you still get that feeling with your new JVC? |
Yup. I do see my hand in front of my face because the blacks are not 100% black but the feeling is there. It takes a while after a complete fade to black to notice that it's not 100% black with the JVC. As mentioned above, with my CRT I couldn't do that "can't see your hand in front your face" without losing some of the low end details so I didn't have that before either.
IMHO, I bet most people that can't see their hands in front of their faces with CRT are actually crushing blacks (losing detail). Put up some of the test patterns from the free AVS709 test disc (google "AVS709") to see if you actually see just above black. The signal normally goes from 16-235 with 16 being black and 235 being white. There are test patterns to try. Turn down the brightness until you see 17 just barely. On a CRT you'll likely also see the background which is black (16). It likely won't be 100% black.
Kal
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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"A digital actually does better with inter-scene (ANSI) blacks than CRT since there's less light bouncing around inside. In other words: The best you get with CRT is LC coupled lenses. Put a white square up on a black screen and it still washes out the rest of the image slightly on a CRT. On a digital (at least this one) it does not."
Now that I got to see.. sounds good. Btw, my electric bill has doubled since I bought my 9500 LC and about what a lamp should cost me annually if I had a digital. 300 $/year on electric bills for the CRT alone and with about 6 hours of use daily. Will need a new red and blue tube shortly with this amount of usage.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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"Yup. I do see my hand in front of my face because the blacks are not 100% black but the feeling is there. It takes a while after a complete fade to black to notice that it's not 100% black with the JVC. As mentioned above, with my CRT I couldn't do that "can't see your hand in front your face" without losing some of the low end details so I didn't have that before either.
IMHO, I bet most people that can't see their hands in front of their faces with CRT are actually crushing blacks (losing detail). Put up some of the test patterns from the free AVS709 test disc (google "AVS709") to see if you actually see just above black. The signal normally goes from 16-235 with 16 being black and 235 being white. There are test patterns to try. Turn down the brightness until you see 17 just barely. On a CRT you'll likely also see the background which is black (16). It likely won't be 100% black."
I will try this, but I wasn't talking of 100% darkness, merely like 90 % maybe. I can make out my hand, but just barely. I did the internal G2 levels and got good results from that, think it might be ok now. But will make this a try as well.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | Now that I got to see.. sounds good. Btw, my electric bill has doubled since I bought my 9500 LC and about what a lamp should cost me annually if I had a digital. 300 $/year on electric bills for the CRT alone and with about 6 hours of use daily. Will need a new red and blue tube shortly with this amount of usage. |
$300/year for electricity for a projector? Where do you live, and how expensive is electricity there? A 600w (average) projector running 6 hours per day, 365 days per year would run me around $120/year here. Are you really paying almost $0.25 per kilowatt-hour? If so, I'd be thinking about a 50-60-inch direct-view set for non-critical viewing and save the projector for the good stuff. 6 hours/day wouldn't be any treat with a digital projector either, as you'll be burning through a lamp about once a year.
SC
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | Now that I got to see.. sounds good. Btw, my electric bill has doubled since I bought my 9500 LC and about what a lamp should cost me annually if I had a digital. 300 $/year on electric bills for the CRT alone and with about 6 hours of use daily. Will need a new red and blue tube shortly with this amount of usage. |
$300/year for electricity for a projector? Where do you live, and how expensive is electricity there? A 600w (average) projector running 6 hours per day, 365 days per year would run me around $120/year here. Are you really paying almost $0.25 per kilowatt-hour? If so, I'd be thinking about a 50-60-inch direct-view set for non-critical viewing and save the projector for the good stuff. 6 hours/day wouldn't be any treat with a digital projector either, as you'll be burning through a lamp about once a year.
SC |
I live in Sweden and have a bounded lees on electric. Meaning I have fixed rate at exactly 1SEK per kilowatt. I just got my recent bill and it doubled from dec last year to about 330 kilowatt in January, and so half of that was CRT alone. My pj was down for some period of time before that, as I didn't have int chains, and didn't use it as much as now.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Btw, you must post some screen-shots soon from the both of you. Seeing you both have JVC I mean.  I haven't even seen a JVC up close because this town is to small and outnumbered by cheaper on-line sites. You really can't make any comparison in this town even though it's not that of a small town either.
Sorry if I misguided the thread a bit though.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I tried taking some screenshots a couple of weeks ago but they did not show anywhere near what I was seeing. This is normal as the camera does not have the same dynamic range and then there's your screen to worry about as well.
IMHO, other than for a few very specific aspects, screenshots are meaningless. They make as much sense as someone using a microphone to record what a certain set of speakers sound like so that people can play back the recording to hear what those speakers sound like. Everyone understands that's s completely illogical but with screenshots for some reason people don't get it.
Kal
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