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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| CxTurbo wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | Why do you want to run JABOD over zfs? With zfs RaidZ1 I have one redundant parity drive and all the discs show up as one gigantic drive on my network. So it is like JABOD in that all discs combined into one, but it has parity.
craigr |
I was under the impression that all the drives were required to be the same type,size and speed for that to work? Was I wrong? Not like that has NEVER happend before, LOL!
I had been buying whatever was on sale and available at that time never thinking of a server. So now I have 3 2TB Deskstars and a 1GB WD.
If ZFS will work in RAIDZ1 with my HDD's then that will work just fine for me 8)
James |
I think that it will work, but not as "raid." I am pretty sure you can just create a zfs file system on your first drive. Then expand the zfs pool to include the next drive, and again, and again... and then you can add drives whenever you want. However, just like with JBOD if one drive fails, you will loose the data on all of your drives.
I personally would not do it that way. I would just keep each drive separate. That way if you lose one drive you will only lose the data on that drive and not all drives.
craigr
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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You guys aren't seriously running software raid are you?? I realize hardware raid adds to cost but its faster and very much safer and if you add in the cost of recovery after a failure probably cheaper.
Raid doesn't require the drives to be the same size or type but it will use the smallest drive to establish any raid capacity.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | You guys aren't seriously running software raid are you?? I realize hardware raid adds to cost but its faster and very much safer and if you add in the cost of recovery after a failure probably cheaper.
Raid doesn't require the drives to be the same size or type but it will use the smallest drive to establish any raid capacity. |
Thank you I didn't really want to start this discussion but since KM did I though I would weigh in. ....software raid with non-enterprise drives scares the hell out of me...Turning off the park sound like a great idea...I haven't heard that before...But it makes sense and perhaps that solves many issues.
I've installed several software raid systems only to lose everything for apparent no reason. Also have a spare drive standing by to rebuild on the first sign of trouble. Do these systems save the RAID array configuration on the boot drive and can it be backed up? One other issue I've seen with software raid it they are very tightly coupled to the hardware. Meaning if you have a hardware failure with motherboard unless you replace the motherboard with the exact model often times the array is not readable.
If you do go this route...Have a backup of un-replaceable data....RAID is NOT a replacement for a backup. I cannot stress that enough.
Mike
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | km987654 wrote: | You guys aren't seriously running software raid are you?? I realize hardware raid adds to cost but its faster and very much safer and if you add in the cost of recovery after a failure probably cheaper.
Raid doesn't require the drives to be the same size or type but it will use the smallest drive to establish any raid capacity. |
Thank you ....software raid with non-enterprise drives scares the hell out of me...Turning off the park sound like a great idea...I haven't heard that before...But it makes sense.
I've installed several software raid systems only to lose everything for apparent no reason. Also have a spare drive standing by to rebuild on the first sign of trouble. Do these systems save the volumn configuations on the boot drive and can it be backed up?
If you do go this route...Have a backup of un-replaceable data....RAID is NOT a replacement for a backup. I cannot stress that enough.
Mike |
When I say type I should say Brand and also speed. So total raid size and speed will be governed by the smallest slowest drive. As mentioned drives can be different brand and there is an advantage in different brand in that they are unlikely to fail at the same time having said that most raid packs including mine contain the same brand drive. You should strive for the same speed and capacity.
I am not aware of any enterprise manufacturer that sells a server (that is actually a server) for that segment based on software raid. In my own experience I have tried many different flavors of software raid all of which have had complete and unexpected failures. Hardware raid on the other hand has proved reliable and predictable and recoverable.
If you go software raid well good luck. 
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Here is a link I found that points out some difference between enterprise and non-enterprise class drives.
http://www.pantz.org/hardware/disks/what_makes_a_hard_drive_enterprise_class.html
I realize that Craig has spent a great deal of time researching this and if anyone can make it work reliable I'm sure he would be the one that will do it. I've just had too many bad experiences with on motherboard raid controllers. These were all Windows boxes which I realize is an entirely different animal. Perhaps the Linux based applications are much better...I certainly hope so.
Mike
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:31 am Post subject: |
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I don't know how much experience you guys have with the zfs file system, but it is a different animal compared to software raid arrays. I am not an expert and I haven't been using zfs long, so I to will find out if the claims are what they say they are.
ZFS is different for many reasons compared to USF and other file formats that are typically used in a software raid. This is nothing like a windows software array. zfs RAID is actually not even really a RAID at all!
In fact, zfs is actually a file system, partition, and format rolled into one. zfs uses all the discs in the pool as though they are one disc. All the above information is stored on the volume its self. This means that any hardware can be changed (motherboard, operating system, sata controller...) without loss of the volume. The volume can even be placed in a different hardware system without any data loss. I even tried switching between FreeNAS and NAS4Free and was easily able to import the volume created under FreeNAS into NAS4Free without data loss. So even the firmware (OS) can be swapped without issue.
This is nice because if any hardware other than the drives fails all one needs do is replace the failing hardware. If the OS disc dies or becomes corrupt, a new OS flash drive with a fresh copy of the OS can just be popped in and the old volume imported without any data loss. I experimented with both scenarios already and did not have any data loss.
zfs frees one from specific hardware and software configurations. Any OS that can read the zfs file system can import my array and see the data without data loss. I am free from specific hardware and software environments.
If I had more time I would make some more points about why zfs is supposedly a better system than any hardware raid system. If it winds up not working out I will get a Netgear ReadyNAS Pro with six bays and put my new drives in there. But those are $800 and so far so good for the most part.
craigr
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Just a quick clarification. This isn't Linux based. It is BSD or in this case FreeBSD. I had to recheck, as ZFS file system isn't in use in Linux. It is probably why ZFS isn't as widely known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | I don't know how much experience you guys have with the zfs file system, but it is a different animal compared to software raid arrays. I am not an expert and I haven't been using zfs long, so I to will find out if the claims are what they say they are.
ZFS is different for many reasons compared to USF and other file formats that are typically used in a software raid. This is nothing like a windows software array. zfs RAID is actually not even really a RAID at all!
In fact, zfs is actually a file system, partition, and format rolled into one. zfs uses all the discs in the pool as though they are one disc. All the above information is stored on the volume its self. This means that any hardware can be changed (motherboard, operating system, sata controller...) without loss of the volume. The volume can even be placed in a different hardware system without any data loss. I even tried switching between FreeNAS and NAS4Free and was easily able to import the volume created under FreeNAS into NAS4Free without data loss. So even the firmware (OS) can be swapped without issue.
This is nice because if any hardware other than the drives fails all one needs do is replace the failing hardware. If the OS disc dies or becomes corrupt, a new OS flash drive with a fresh copy of the OS can just be popped in and the old volume imported without any data loss. I experimented with both scenarios already and did not have any data loss.
zfs frees one from specific hardware and software configurations. Any OS that can read the zfs file system can import my array and see the data without data loss. I am free from specific hardware and software environments.
If I had more time I would make some more points about why zfs is supposedly a better system than any hardware raid system. If it winds up not working out I will get a Netgear ReadyNAS Pro with six bays and put my new drives in there. But those are $800 and so far so good for the most part.
craigr |
Craig,
Thank you so much for the clarification. It’s hard to keep up on everything and this post clears that up immensely. I have never had it explained to me so clearly in a few paragraphs. So many times you read forums and you have to go through 50 pages of post to understand such a simple concept....Frankly I don't have time or perhaps I should say don't want to take the time..I'd rather be watching a movie or working on my car restoration project.  My current 24TB media server is nearly full. Now you have me thinking.
Mike
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Zfs is very impressive but still software. Software has to sit on some form of hardware. So you have two levels at which raid can exist if you use it. If you use hardware then usually the operating system is not aware of the array and firmware takes care of any bad drives usually without the operating system being aware. So since zfs is still software it has the same limitations of other software systems when raid is implemented.
I would doubt that it would replace a raid controller on any enterprise box but hey things do change.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | Here is a link I found that points out some difference between enterprise and non-enterprise class drives.
http://www.pantz.org/hardware/disks/what_makes_a_hard_drive_enterprise_class.html
I realize that Craig has spent a great deal of time researching this and if anyone can make it work reliable I'm sure he would be the one that will do it. I've just had too many bad experiences with on motherboard raid controllers. These were all Windows boxes which I realize is an entirely different animal. Perhaps the Linux based applications are much better...I certainly hope so.
Mike |
Hey Mike, here are a few points on your link:
| Quote: | 1) Error Recovery Time Limits
This "feature" is the one that made me want to write this whole entry. Where I used to work I heard there was a group having issues with hard drives in their RAID arrays dropping out for no reason and then re-appearing. Come to find out they are using desktop class hard drives with their RAID controllers. With enough research they found out why this was happening.
Error Recovery Control or Command Completion Time Limit or Time-Limited Error Recovery. Every manufacture seems to have a different name for this but it's all the same idea.
Modern hard drives have internal error recovery algorithms that can take upwards of a minute to recover and re-map data that the drive can not easily read. Many RAID controllers (depending on the controller) will drop a non-responsive drive in ~ 8 or so seconds. This can cause the array to drop a good drive because it has not been given enough time to complete its internal error recovery procedure. This leaves the rest of the array vulnerable. Many enterprise class drives limit this error recovery time and prevent this problem.
Enterprise (sometimes called "RAID CLASS") hard drives have this value set around ~ 7-8 seconds. After that period if the disk has not recovered from the error it will issue an error message to the RAID card and defer the error recovery until a later time. This will let the RAID card decide on how to handle the recovery issue.
Desktop drives have this feature turned off as it is assumed that there is no RAID card. During the error recovery process the disk becomes non-responsive and it will not issue any type of error message. That is the point when the RAID card marks the drive as bad and removes it from the array. Desktop hard drives are built with the assumption that they should do everything possible to complete the error correction. They assume there is no RAID controller there to help with error recovery.
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This feature is also called TLER and is generally a good idea for raid configurations with hardware and most software raid system. However, with zfs TLER is not recommended and if your HD has it, it's suggested that it be disabled. This is because FreeNAS (and I think maybe all zfs OSs) have this feature built into the software. FreeNAS actually will allow even more time than TLER on a HD and can even be customized through the command prompt. This allows the HD more time in the event of an error so that a potentially good drive doesn't get booted out of the zpool (array).
| Quote: | 2) Higher Vibration Tolerances
All hard drives vibrate during normal spinning and seek operations, but a lot of vibration can cause real issues. When you pack 8,12,16,24 or more drives close together into a case then add lots of high-speed fans to cool them off your not doing your hard drives any favors when it comes to vibration. On top of that you probably have a bunch of machines bolted to a rack vibrating each other. Not to mention the vibration from the HVAC systems.
All this vibration can disrupt the operation of a drive. |
Folks have disassembled the Western Digital Green and Red drives to try and determine what is different. It seems that the two drives are mechanically identical with only different FW versions (the Red drives have TLER) and the different warranty periods (Reds are longer). Either way, the WD green drives are one of the coolest running drives out there and they average 30 degrees Celsius in my server as reported by smartctl.
Another thing I did to help with vibration is to select a case with vibration damping. My drives actually mount in bays that have rubber vibration absorbing grommets that hold the drives. This helps isolate the vibration between drives. Honestly, If I place my hand on any of the drives or multiple drives, I find it difficult to tell if they are spinning or not. I need to double check through the command prompt to see if they are awake or asleep.
| Quote: | 3) End-to-End Error Detection
Enterprise-class drives usually implement some type of "end-to-end" error detection in their design. Data that is transmitted from one end of the drive to the other with this system would be accompanied by some type of parity or checksum at every stage. This will allow for data transmission errors to be detected, and in some cases corrected or retransmitted.
Desktop systems will have some error detection in their subsystems, but they do not usually provide this type of end-to-end data protection. They would not incorporate things like Error Correction Code (ECC) in system memory or drive memory buffers. Enterprise class drives will use error detection at every stage of data transmission within the system. |
This is actually a moot point with zfs. zfs generates checksums for all data on the drives. It will find errors when the data is read and provide only correct data from parity in combination with the checksum.
zfs also supports what are called "scrubs." When a scrub is performed, all data is matched against the checksums. If data doesn't match the checksum than it is replaced with parity data or the parity data is repaired. It is recommended that on non-enterprise drives (like mine) that a scrub be performed weekly and on enterprise drives a scrub should be performed monthly. With my server half full a scrub takes about seven hours and seems to run at about 425 MB/sec.
The scrub is automated and scheduled so I don't have to remember to do anything. Also, the server remains operational during the scrub so there is no down time.
| Quote: | 4) Higher Quality Parts
Enterprise class hard drives designed to run 24/7/365. Desktop drives are not. When the manufactures make the drives they take this into consideration. Enterprise workloads create greater wear on bearings, motors, actuators, etc. This generates additional heat and vibration. Enterprise class drives are designed with heavy duty components and drive firmware programming to meet the rigors of this environment. |
I am sure this is true. However, the price of real server drives is prohibitively expensive for me. To help counter this, I have my server turn the HDs off after 20 minutes of inactivity. This way my drives spin maybe up to six hours a day under heavy usage, and certainly much less that 24/7/365.
That was a lot, I don't have time to proof read, and I could be wrong on any point because I am not an expert
craigr
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Get a decent raid controller from say Adaptec or HP or IBM or LSI or 3Ware and the posted issues shouldn't be there. After 30 years in this arena I have seen all sorts of systems designed to perform the function of a raid controller and all fall short. If you value the data you are collecting then invest the money. I would avoid PC based onboard raid though buy an add on card.
I have used non enterprise hdd with a good hardware raid controller successfully as the raid controller is smart and makes up for some of the drawbacks of domestic drives.
That's the last I will say on the matter.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
That was a lot, I don't have time to proof read, and I could be wrong on any point because I am not an expert
craigr |
Could of fooled me.
Mike
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Just a quick clarification. This isn't Linux based. It is BSD or in this case FreeBSD. I had to recheck, as ZFS file system isn't in use in Linux. It is probably why ZFS isn't as widely known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS |
Yeah, sorry about that. It just feels so much like Linux and Unix through the command prompt.
FreeBSD is also very similar to Open Solaris and NAS4Free I think is built on Open Solaris, which I think is built on Unix...
Circle of life
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | Get a decent raid controller from say Adaptec or HP or IBM or LSI or 3Ware and the posted issues shouldn't be there. After 30 years in this arena I have seen all sorts of systems designed to perform the function of a raid controller and all fall short. If you value the data you are collecting then invest the money. I would avoid PC based onboard raid though buy an add on card.
I have used non enterprise hdd with a good hardware raid controller successfully as the raid controller is smart and makes up for some of the drawbacks of domestic drives.
That's the last I will say on the matter. |
I certainly don't want to discount your valuable input and I appreciate it. But this is new and fun for me at the moment. Time will tell how stable zfs is, but its primary reason for beings is to ensure data integrity. zfs central design concern is data integrity. There is always the wiki:
| Quote: | | ZFS is a combined file system and logical volume manager designed by Sun Microsystems. The features of ZFS include data integrity verification against data corruption modes, support for high storage capacities, integration of the concepts of filesystem and volume management, snapshots and copy-on-write clones, continuous integrity checking and automatic repair, RAID-Z and native NFSv4 ACLs. ZFS is implemented as open-source software, licensed under the Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL). The ZFS name was a trademark of Oracle[3] until September 20, 2011.[4] |
| Quote: | One major feature that distinguishes ZFS from other file systems is that ZFS is designed from the ground up with a focus on data integrity. That is, protect the user's data on disk against silent data corruption caused by bit rot, current spikes, bugs in disk firmware, ghost writes, and so on.
Data Integrity is a high priority in ZFS because recent research shows that none of the currently widespread file systems — such as Ext, XFS, JFS, UFS, or NTFS — nor Hardware RAID provide sufficient protection against such problems.[13][14][15][16][17] It is well known that Hardware RAID has some issues with data integrity. Initial research indicates that ZFS clearly protects data better than earlier solutions.[18] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
craigr
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Some nice servers there tim, could ya spare one? 
I have to look up one of these DUNE devices, I have a server here I could convert to use for that purpose. Thanks for the pix craig!!
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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I've been thinking about getting a Dune HD Duo for a media server(with two 3 tb drives)are there any drawbacks to this approach ?
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Craig it be cool if you did a step by step of how to go about doing all this. When i to comes to this stuff I am a bit intimidated.
Nashou |
I agree ! I just ordered the Dune hd Duo and a couple of 3Tb drives and I've never used or even seen a Dune in person before.This should be interesting !
How do you use Any DVD HD with a dune ? Currently I use a laptop to burn ISO files to my external HDD but with a Dune I'm not sure exactly how all this works....Hopefully I don't have to ask too many questions
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Craig it be cool if you did a step by step of how to go about doing all this. When i to comes to this stuff I am a bit intimidated.
Nashou |
I agree ! I just ordered the Dune hd Duo and a couple of 3Tb drives and I've never used or even seen a Dune in person before.This should be interesting !
How do you use Any DVD HD with a dune ? Currently I use a laptop to burn ISO files to my external HDD but with a Dune I'm not sure exactly how all this works....Hopefully I don't have to ask too many questions |
Well, the way I would do it is to set your DUNE up as an SMB server. That way your HDs inside the DUNE will be visible as NAS discs (network attached storage hard drives). You can then rip with AnyDVD directly from your PC to the DUNE via the network.
You will also probably want to setup a movie wall? This will require a software solution, and I use yaDIS. Here is a link to the MPC thread regarding yaDIS. http://www.mpcclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25899
Download yaDIS here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6i66avohuqw3dmw
You can also use custom artwork and skins for both yaIDS and the DUNE interface. Here is a link to those forums.
yaDIS templates: http://www.mpcclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28388 (I like Tribute)
DUNE Skins: http://www.mpcclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26999
Don't try and do everything at once because this stuff can be a little daunting at first! Start by just learning how to rip with AnyDVD across your network to the DUNE. Then learn how to setup yaDIS as this can be very confusing at first. Then worry about custom skins and artwork.
Also, you should know about something called "dune_folder.txt" files. These are simple text files that the DUNE knows how to use to make changes to the interface based on what is inside the text file. It is basically a very simple programming language. Here is an example dune_folder.txt file. You can use it to name the hard discs in your DUNE to something manageable. Just place the dune_folder.txt file in the root of each hard disk inside the Dune to rename them. In my file, the hard disc will be named DUNE_HD1.
craigr
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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When I bought the 3 drives they were all external drives. Can I just burn the ISO files to the external hard drives using my current system without connecting thru the Dune and then just load the drives into the dune when finished ? The computer I normally use to create the files is nowhere near where the Dune will be located.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Yes. If you are ok with pulling out the HD every time you want to rip a disc.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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