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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with HogPilot. You have a big, open room, Kal. The temperature and volume of air that comes out of my RS45 is very low, and not that hot, either. I assume it's worse in high lamp mode, but with your room size, you should be fine.
I'm just going by the seat of my pants and guessing based on the power consumption specs, but I'm pretty sure the G70 put out a significant amount more heat than this JVC. Significant as in double or more.
I only mentioned the hush box and fan in my case because I already have all that stuff left over from the CRT, and because my room is 13x18 with a ceiling-height less than 8-feet. It had a tendency to get pretty warm in the room after a whole movie, even with the hush box running, and even with the HVAC fan running constantly. I should have put returns on both ceiling and floor with dampers on each to change where the draw comes from, but second-guessed myself and thought, "Well, I told the HVAC guy what I'm doing with this room - he'll know what to do."
Yes, intake on bottom and back, exhausts on both sides of the front.
SC
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Notice that the gamma is extreme dependent of the room temperature, so its not a bad idea considering a stable temperature around a JVC projector. And its very visible to the image.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, really? Interesting. I haven't read anything at all about that anywhere. I saw that older bulbs can cause more 3D ghosting, perhaps due to the aged lamp's lower heat output, but hadn't heard anything about gamma...
What's the relationship and magnitude of the variation like if you don't mind me asking?
SC
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry but can we move this discussion to the digital forum......  
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Oh, really? Interesting. I haven't read anything at all about that anywhere. I saw that older bulbs can cause more 3D ghosting, perhaps due to the aged lamp's lower heat output, but hadn't heard anything about gamma...
What's the relationship and magnitude of the variation like if you don't mind me asking?
SC |
http://forum.recordere.dk/forum_posts.asp?TID=91949&KW=jvc+dla&PN=6&title=jvc-x9-tidligere-x7
I posted some curves here from heatup on my X7, the hard part is stopping the colors from crossing.. as soon as the green gets below red and blue on the gamma curve, your f*ck***.
So calibrating to a low Delta E is not so easy, better make sure your blue is dominating.
This is with new lamp, same lamp as in the new models you buy today, i changed after 700hours
from the 180 min measurement to near perfect is depending on the room temperature
Sorry for the OT.. 
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | I know, Jeff... It's crazy... The looks on their faces were something along the lines of "WTF is THAT?!?!?" and "WTF am I going to do with it?!?!?" |
IMHO, it's not crazy at all.  In fact, it's exactly what I would expect. You yourself have commented on the size of the PJ in the room, and you've had literally years to get used to it. It's probably the very first time they've ever seen any real PJ, and naturally they were a bit shocked. Doesn't really surprise me a bit.
OTOH, it doesn't have to be that way. It's all in the presentation. E.g., if you started out before-hand by talking about how you had this phenomenal dedicated home theater, that put up a picture as good or better than they'd get "at the movies", and would let them watch in the convenience of their home, that sets the stage. But then talk up how HUGE the PJ is, but it's worth it for the great picture. How they used to cost up to 50-grand for commercial projectors, but they'd be getting a custom-built room AND a PJ with the house. Something very few people have, or could afford. A screening room, like movie stars with multi-million dollar homes have.
Then walk them into a dark theater with a film already playing, and have them sit down and watch a bit and get lost in the movie. See the results. Then bring up the lights, so they could finally see the PJ. After being conditioned to think it was HUGE, they'd look at it and say, "Sure it's big, but not as big as I was expecting". It's not like it's sitting in their living room. It's in a room designed specifically for it, the screen, and the audience.
Anyway, like I said, it depends on how you present it. 
| Quote: | | There are people who walk through a house and pass it over because of the paint or carpet, as completely insane as that sounds. |
There's not a d@mn thing you can do about that. But are nutcases like those the people you want to be negotiating with in the first place?
_________________
- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: |
Speaking of "WTF is THAT??" I get that with my Reel to Reel decks as well. |
Geez, Marc. You guys about that like it's a bad thing!
_________________
- Tim
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Phoenixed
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 514
Location: The mitten
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Tinman
Sorry to see you go I had the exact same PJ as you the Epson 8700. I loved it, but yearned for more, so I sold it and bought a marquee. Moreover Epson in my opinion is a great company and their customer service was top notch. Good luck and I am sure you'll enjoy it.
Overclkr (Cliff)
You were my inspiration to get into CRT, the images of screencaps you posted on AVS and here were simply amazing. When I met Gannon for the first time all i said was make mine look like Cliffs. Good luck on moving to the digital realm and but always remember, (as friendly as I can say this) "I am gunning for your ass!!!"
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Planar PD-8150/Runco LS-5
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | I’d have a hard time recommending CRT to the average Joe. It only makes sense for those who... require the most film like image... |
Yeah, if you're willing to sacrifice that, you have a lot of non-CRT options. 
_________________
- Tim
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: |
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How many digitals can you get these days with either 5:4 or 4:3 aspect that will take a 15.75kHz signal via RGB?? Dead set deal killer for me if it doesnt have that. Retro gaming pathetic in 16:9....
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm exited to see how much movies is getting watched on those new digital projectors, specially from people that is used to watch hi end 9" machines that can resolve full 1080P.
I changed from JVC X7 to 9500LC. and there is no way going back for me. I think that the description ( Film like image) is wrong.
Ill call it realistic, compared to looking out the window, or around your house.
With digital you get some compression to the 3d in the image/ focus. Lcos seems much more flat, and back ground details gets over focused, not natural.
I sure understand why some would change to smaller less noisy projectors, if having it set up in a living room.
I recently got to the conclusion that CRT is only for those wanting the most realistic/ natural image, and Digital for those who like over sharp image, and don't have place for the big CRT.
I still haven't seen anything compensating for size yet.. So boys with small toys is still having less fun..
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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From a $$ point, I'd say that about 60% of it is still from HT guys, 40% from corporate customers, and as the manufacturers are ceasing support, the ratio is quickly heading to 50/50. My prices are a fraction from the manufacturers, so the commercial customers are climbing on board quickly.
Mind you, all 12 of the G90s that I've sold this year have been to HT people. 2 more about to be sold next week.
I believe that this forum really consists of cutting edge people, so it's no surprise that the people that have the disposable income are going digital. That's really no surprise here. Still, being able to buy a minty tube 9" set for well under $5K, with DIY service remains appealing to many.
My own HT hasn't been on in 2 years now. With me working 60 hours a week, and wanting a bit of a social life in there as well, and a house that needs a massive cleaning and reno work, the HT upgrade is years down the road. When I get to it, I will most likely pull out the unmodded 9500 in there, and put up a G90 or 909. I still don't think it will be used more than 100 hours a year. I don't really see ever springing for a digital, and I've got a broken Ruby sitting here..
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Cliff,
Are you really dumping the G90s?
I totally understand where people can make the move to digital. For me, as my eyes get worse digitals get better. Truthfully, my eyes have been getting worse, so background detail and the like isn't as big of an issue for me. While the 909s may be leaving, I will probably hold onto the G90. Of course that depends on my living situation in the next couple of weeks.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | This is with new lamp, same lamp as in the new models you buy today, i changed after 700hours
from the 180 min measurement to near perfect is depending on the room temperature
Sorry for the OT.. |
To continue the aside: it depends upon what you mean by "new lamp." There's still plenty of places selling the original model of lamp that came with the last generation of JVCs, and those will fit just fine in the new generation. However all of the bulbs in the current generation of JVCs have a additional metal fin on the lamp assembly; and in addition JVC has verified (on more than one occasion) that there were some metal parts internal to the bulbs that were poorly manufactured and were not holding up to the temperature, which was causing them to dim and fail prematurely. The "new" new bulbs share the exact same model number as the "old" new bulbs, so they're easily mistaken for one another if you don't know to look for the fin. Some stores guarantee that they're selling the "new" models, so going through them is one way of getting your hands on one. The other way is to buy one of the projectors from this generation, all of which use the new and improved bulbs.
The longevity of the "new" new bulb in comparison to the "old" new bulbs has been documented rather extensively on the "A" site. For those like kal who are considering an RS45 or RS55, this is a non-issue.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | This is with new lamp, same lamp as in the new models you buy today, i changed after 700hours
from the 180 min measurement to near perfect is depending on the room temperature
Sorry for the OT.. |
To continue the aside: it depends upon what you mean by "new lamp." There's still plenty of places selling the original model of lamp that came with the last generation of JVCs, and those will fit just fine in the new generation. However all of the bulbs in the current generation of JVCs have a additional metal fin on the lamp assembly; and in addition JVC has verified (on more than one occasion) that there were some metal parts internal to the bulbs that were poorly manufactured and were not holding up to the temperature, which was causing them to dim and fail prematurely. The "new" new bulbs share the exact same model number as the "old" new bulbs, so they're easily mistaken for one another if you don't know to look for the fin. Some stores guarantee that they're selling the "new" models, so going through them is one way of getting your hands on one. The other way is to buy one of the projectors from this generation, all of which use the new and improved bulbs.
The longevity of the "new" new bulb in comparison to the "old" new bulbs has been documented rather extensively on the "A" site. For those like kal who are considering an RS45 or RS55, this is a non-issue. |
Would be nice if you could post some heat up measurements 5 15 30 45 60 90 120 min of your RS55, and after around 3 hours try adjust the room temperature up and down, and document the behavior of the gamma of all 3 colors. continue running it around 10-12 hours and see where it ends.
Please use HCFR so everybody can study the files.
Lets see your best calibration data, and follow up every 50 hours..
All the lamp talk are useless.. Facts. measurements testing please.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Why are you guy not going with the LCOS?
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | This is with new lamp, same lamp as in the new models you buy today, i changed after 700hours
from the 180 min measurement to near perfect is depending on the room temperature
Sorry for the OT.. |
To continue the aside: it depends upon what you mean by "new lamp." There's still plenty of places selling the original model of lamp that came with the last generation of JVCs, and those will fit just fine in the new generation. However all of the bulbs in the current generation of JVCs have a additional metal fin on the lamp assembly; and in addition JVC has verified (on more than one occasion) that there were some metal parts internal to the bulbs that were poorly manufactured and were not holding up to the temperature, which was causing them to dim and fail prematurely. The "new" new bulbs share the exact same model number as the "old" new bulbs, so they're easily mistaken for one another if you don't know to look for the fin. Some stores guarantee that they're selling the "new" models, so going through them is one way of getting your hands on one. The other way is to buy one of the projectors from this generation, all of which use the new and improved bulbs.
The longevity of the "new" new bulb in comparison to the "old" new bulbs has been documented rather extensively on the "A" site. For those like kal who are considering an RS45 or RS55, this is a non-issue. |
Would be nice if you could post some heat up measurements 5 15 30 45 60 90 120 min of your RS55, and after around 3 hours try adjust the room temperature up and down, and document the behavior of the gamma of all 3 colors. continue running it around 10-12 hours and see where it ends.
Please use HCFR so everybody can study the files.
Lets see your best calibration data, and follow up every 50 hours..
All the lamp talk are useless.. Facts. measurements testing please. |
Firstly, I think we're talking two different issues here - long term life vs short term affects on spectral output due to heating of the bulb. Secondly, I'm currently deployed overseas and won't be back to my projector for at least another month, so unfortunately collecting any data is out of the question. That being said, the fact that the new bulbs are meeting their lifespan projections is well documented at AVS if you choose to go take a gander over there. UHP bulbs' spectral output shifting during warmup is also well documented phenomenon, and I'd hardly be on to argue that it doesn't happen.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | - Sub-pixel convergence. Yes, some digitals have convergence adjustments to tweak out any problems between the three panel alignments. The RS45 can only do 1 pixel at a time for the whole screen so if you're off by 1/2 a pixel in one direction it'll never get any better. The RS55 lets you adjust small steps at 1/16 of a pixel in 121 screen zones. Sort of like a CRT. |
How in @%!! does that work!? Wouldn't that require adjustable mirrors in the optical path?
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | This is with new lamp, same lamp as in the new models you buy today, i changed after 700hours
from the 180 min measurement to near perfect is depending on the room temperature
Sorry for the OT.. |
To continue the aside: it depends upon what you mean by "new lamp." There's still plenty of places selling the original model of lamp that came with the last generation of JVCs, and those will fit just fine in the new generation. However all of the bulbs in the current generation of JVCs have a additional metal fin on the lamp assembly; and in addition JVC has verified (on more than one occasion) that there were some metal parts internal to the bulbs that were poorly manufactured and were not holding up to the temperature, which was causing them to dim and fail prematurely. The "new" new bulbs share the exact same model number as the "old" new bulbs, so they're easily mistaken for one another if you don't know to look for the fin. Some stores guarantee that they're selling the "new" models, so going through them is one way of getting your hands on one. The other way is to buy one of the projectors from this generation, all of which use the new and improved bulbs.
The longevity of the "new" new bulb in comparison to the "old" new bulbs has been documented rather extensively on the "A" site. For those like kal who are considering an RS45 or RS55, this is a non-issue. |
Would be nice if you could post some heat up measurements 5 15 30 45 60 90 120 min of your RS55, and after around 3 hours try adjust the room temperature up and down, and document the behavior of the gamma of all 3 colors. continue running it around 10-12 hours and see where it ends.
Please use HCFR so everybody can study the files.
Lets see your best calibration data, and follow up every 50 hours..
All the lamp talk are useless.. Facts. measurements testing please. |
Firstly, I think we're talking two different issues here - long term life vs short term affects on spectral output due to heating of the bulb. Secondly, I'm currently deployed overseas and won't be back to my projector for at least another month, so unfortunately collecting any data is out of the question. That being said, the fact that the new bulbs are meeting their lifespan projections is well documented at AVS if you choose to go take a gander over there. UHP bulbs' spectral output shifting during warmup is also well documented phenomenon, and I'd hardly be on to argue that it doesn't happen. |
The funny thing is that i have a old BENQ PE 8720 DLP projector with UHP lamp.
And its stable from cold to hot.. spot on no heat up needed.
So my guess is that the drifting in JVC is panel drifting, like some DC drift in the signals to the panels, or the panels itself.
DLP being digital on off, with color wheel, and only variable factor the lamp.
And Lcos where i guess the panels are analog regulated, and the D/A conversion, and signal path being sensitive to temperature. So i doubt that the biggest variable factor is the lamp.
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