|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
epatsellis
Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
Location: Central IL
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 416ray4538 wrote: | In the late '70's Linn had a rumoured working prototype that used a tiny jet of water to read the vinyl groove. The jet was apparently so tiny that it dried in the time it took for the platter to turn 360 deg. The company claim was that the pickup caused zero wear and was sensitive enough to pick up spatial information from mono recordings. No doubt this was dependant on top quality recordings.
Now that would be a cool addition to the toys.
And for the trivia buffs : 5.1 can still be called "stereo" since stereo means "solid" , no reference to the number of channels used to achieve "solid" sound |
Yes, but who did Ivor steal that from??? e.g. the Ariston RD11 design, which became the LP12 (and oddly enough, most of the upgrades and tweaks for the latter work equally well on the former...imagine that)
Erie
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| epatsellis wrote: | | 416ray4538 wrote: | In the late '70's Linn had a rumoured working prototype that used a tiny jet of water to read the vinyl groove. The jet was apparently so tiny that it dried in the time it took for the platter to turn 360 deg. The company claim was that the pickup caused zero wear and was sensitive enough to pick up spatial information from mono recordings. No doubt this was dependant on top quality recordings.
Now that would be a cool addition to the toys.
And for the trivia buffs : 5.1 can still be called "stereo" since stereo means "solid" , no reference to the number of channels used to achieve "solid" sound |
Yes, but who did Ivor steal that from??? e.g. the Ariston RD11 design, which became the LP12 (and oddly enough, most of the upgrades and tweaks for the latter work equally well on the former...imagine that)
Erie |
the first Ariston RD11 was a prototype of the Linn LP12, and both tables were then marketed with some differences but the same starting point , it's almost the same table, main difference being the spindle bearing. Consensus seems to be that the design was "borrowed" from Thorens of Sweden, so both the ariston and Linn can be described as copies of someone else's design.
| Quote: | The Ariston RD11 was produced in 1971 by Castle Precision Engineering Ltd for the late Hamish Robertson who had formed Ariston in 1970. Hamish, along with Ivor Tiefenbrun and Ivor’s late father, Jack Tiefenbrun (Castles owner) developed the design which featured a single point main bearing. The turntable was shown at the Harrogate show in the UK that same year and was distributed by C. J. Walker and Company.
In February of 1973 Linn Products Ltd. was formed to sell turntables made by Castle Precision Engineering. Robertson left Ariston, which had been taken over by Dunlop Westayr Ltd and reorganised as Ariston Audio Ltd.
The more commonly available RD11s was produced by Ariston Audio Ltd. and shared a very similar 3 point suspended, kite shaped, subchassis but featured a captive ball bearing, round arm board and right hand mounted power switch. The top plate extended to all four edges of the plinth but included black trim on the right hand side to simulate the previous designs retangular arm board.
An acquaintance of mine owns an original Ariston RD11 and, except for some minor plinth cosmetic differences, it is the exact equivalent of a 1973 vintage Linn Sondek LP12. In fact that same RD11 now sports a Valhalla board, Nirvana kit and strengthened subchassis and sounds like any other early ’80s LP12.
My opinion is that in the early days Linn attached a lot of importance to the fact that their main bearing was an expensive single point type even to the extent of filing for patent protection and fighting off the opposition to said patent publication that was lodged by turntable manufacturer Fergus Fons Ltd. and the late William James ‘Hamish’ Robertson.
I believe that the Linn bearing exhibits excellent performance because it is a highly specified, precision machined, set of parts that fit together with very close tolerance and run true. The fact that it also incorporates an expensive to produce tapered spindle likely plays a part in its ultimate performance, but how much of said bearing performance is actually due to that one feature?
One must remember that a traditional oil in well bearing is generally made up of a spindle with some form of pivot point at the lower end, a surface that the pivot rotates upon (the actual bearing surface) and a surface or surfaces that the spindle shaft rotates against that keeps it centered as it rotates (the metal or plastic lined sleeve of the bearing well shaft). The quality and tolerance of all of these parts determine the overall bearing performance with respect to friction, free play, running true, noise etc.
There are many examples of turntable designs that do vinyl replay rather well with highly specified captive ball bearings. If you are not using a Linn turntable then you are likely as not using one of these bearing types.
All of the Ariston Audio captive ball bearing turntables that I have come across appeared to have excellent bearing performance with negligible free play and little if any precessing (wobble) during play. Whether they were as good as the Linn bearing of the time is debatable, however the money saved using a well engineered captive ball bearing can be spent elsewhere, witness the Rega P9.
Many turntable designers have at one time or another admitted that a turntables performance is most affected by bearing quality, followed closely by motor performance. The rest as they say is ‘icing on the cake’. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | Yeah, they copied Acoustic research. 
Athanasios |
haha, your right. thorens and Ariston both took the cheaply made AR and applied more expensive manufacturing methods. Here's a pic of my Linn, I liked the table but never really loved it. It's the equivalent IMO of taking a 1940's model T and putting disc brakes, fuel injected V8, and exotic suspension on it. This a 1998 model, had all the factory upgrades to bearings and plinth, but it was still an old-school design. I really didn't like the sub-platter / belt drive mechanism, it was too fussy for me. That and the 3 piece signal cable = head-shell leads / arm wiring/ tone- arm cable were really old and outdated designs IMO. For something made in 1998 it was reall yan antique.
Bought it for 1200 with Benzx cartridge and sold it for 1400 without cartridge, so can't complain about that. 
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
49.36 KB |
| Viewed: |
14533 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was in Best Buy... Needed a cable for a car Charger and wandered into Magnolia.... turns out its a Design center for PA... they had Mac and Sonus and all kinds of goodies.... so the one design guy starts talking to me, takes me to "his" setup where he has a really nice turntable w/ Mac monoblocks and B&W Diamond 802's.... we listen to a couple of nice rock pieces... then he goes and gets the Black Album...
YES Jay-Z the Black Album....
And Dammit if that didnt sound GREAT.....
I gotta think SERIOUSLY about a new table... LOL
_________________
Follow my blog
www.thesinglebrother.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
My reel to reel business on ebay is through the roof as well. I talked to a longtime employee of a local chain store that does installations (NOT Best Buy!), and he says that their 2 channel stereo sales business is way up, and HT is down.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| emdawgz1 wrote: | I was in Best Buy... Needed a cable for a car Charger and wandered into Magnolia.... turns out its a Design center for PA... they had Mac and Sonus and all kinds of goodies.... so the one design guy starts talking to me, takes me to "his" setup where he has a really nice turntable w/ Mac monoblocks and B&W Diamond 802's.... we listen to a couple of nice rock pieces... then he goes and gets the Black Album...
YES Jay-Z the Black Album....
And Dammit if that didnt sound GREAT..... |
Unbelievable, mono blocs and premium TT's in Best buy. However, I learned on this forum from Steve and the Duderino that unless you listened to 20 albums, in both CD and LP format, while blind-folded, then picked out the LP 19 out of 20 times , that your preference for Vinyl is just some kind of weird psychological prejudice in your gray matter.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | I gotta think SERIOUSLY about a new table... LOL |
what do you have now for TT and cartridge?
| Curt Palme wrote: | | My reel to reel business on ebay is through the roof as well. I talked to a longtime employee of a local chain store that does installations (NOT Best Buy!), and he says that their 2 channel stereo sales business is way up, and HT is down. |
how weird is that huh?
I wish we had the space upstairs now to bring a 2-channel system up to the main floor, a real system with full size speakers and, now that my kids are old enough, my TT as well. I don't know how many times we wind up with the TV on even when there's nothing worth watching. This is the perfect time to play music, read a book or magazine.
I think that's what people are starting to figure out, movies and TV shows are great and it was novel thing when that 5-channel immersive experience first came out, but at some point it's just too much and you start numbing out. I think they're even doing studies now on the negative effects of binge-watching. So having a sweet, smooth music system is a nice way to relax.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree guys
I never used my home theater setup but one time for audio(still have almost my entire music collection on my htpc yet haven't played one on it since)
I have been using my infinity rs-5''s(80's era version) with a Harmon kardon receiver and have a mixing board for the inputs(iPod cd changer and powermac desktop) I still prefer to relax and enjoy my music when there is nothing on tv to watch(been doing it for years even after I got the surround sound setup)
It's a different experience to play music with a surround sound system but it doesn't feel the same as a quality two channel unit with quality speakers
_________________
crt king of black
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 12:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
OK, so I jumped back on the vinyl bandwagon about a month ago.
I bought a Sony PSLX300 for $50:
http://store.sony.com/stereo-turntable-system-zid27-PSLX300USB/cat-27-catid-ESP-Home-Theather-Electronics
I originally hooked it up in the HT, but I found I don't like sitting still in the HT to listen to 2-channel LPs, staring at a blank screen. I've got tons of Blu-ray concerts and Palladia rips (Jools Holland, Crossroads, Live at Daryl's, Artists Den, etc) in 5.1 which I watch a lot. So I dug out an old Sony AVR and a couple of small Polk Audio M10 speakers that I used to use as surrounds.
I set it up in my office, which has worked out perfect because I'm usually at my desk all day.
But the records skip A LOT. Even with a brand new Foo Fighters LP that I bought.
I googled the Sony PSLX300 and there are lots of people with the same problem, but no needle pressure adjustments on the tone arm. I taped a 3 gram weight (a penny) and it helped with maybe 75% of the skips. But I still get 25% of the skips. I tried a 5g weight (a nickel) and get the same results. I went back to the penny because I know the extra weight is bad for the records.
The records are in good shape. I wipe them down with a slightly damp microfiber cloth. And I lightly brush the needle with a paint brush to make sure it's clean. That also helped a lot. But it's still rare to make it through a whole side without a skip.
Any suggestions?
Any recommendations for a better TT for <$100? The Sony receiver doesn't have phono inputs, but the Sony TT has a phono/line output switch. So if I got a better TT with only phono out, I'd have to get another amp too.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Clarence, take it back and get a GOOD used turntable. That thing is a POS, worth all of $50. Get a used Yamaha, Kenwood, etc.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Clarence, take it back That thing is a POS, worth all of $50. |
$50.? you mean $.50 ? come to think of it even 50 cents is too much.
Clarence sorry to say but you shouldn't even try to do vinyl for 50 bucks, or 100 bucks. the results you got was why everyone ran out and bought CD players in the 80's, that plastic POS sony TT was the kind of crap most people owned.
The cheapest rig I can recommended is the Orbit with optional arm lifter $179. + $40. and run it into a phono pre amp which start at around $50. I saw and listened to the Orbit last weekend, the slightly upgraded $300. model and it sounded pretty good.
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
Unfortunately, $300. is bare minimum for new LP gear. Only other option is used stuff if you can find and are 100% sure it's in good shape. For less than $300., just play CD's or MP3.
I've got about $1.5K in my TT set-up, and I think it was worth every penny, so unlike a $1500. CD player, the more you spend on a TT the more you get back.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 5:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
To me that TT has a big "uncool" factor because it's a blatant ripoff of the SL-1200. It looks identical. That really turns me off.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil Smith wrote: | | To me that TT has a big "uncool" factor because it's a blatant ripoff of the SL-1200. It looks identical. That really turns me off. |
Uncool factor doesn't bother me... not trying to be a hipster, a club DJ, or an audiophile, just want something that will play vinyl in my home office without skipping.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
I used to sell the Numark knockoff of the Technics. Junk. The AT isn't much better, but is better than the Sony you bought. Why not get a good vintage Ttable? Anything Technics, or anything direct drive should be a good candidate for $150-200 used depending on the ripoff factor of the CL seller. Tonearms rarely fail, if the bearings have an issue, you'll see that the rest of the Ttable is in poor shape as well.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Curt Palme wrote: | | I used to sell the Numark knockoff of the Technics. Junk. The AT isn't much better, but is better than the Sony you bought. Why not get a good vintage Ttable? Anything Technics, or anything direct drive should be a good candidate for $150-200 used depending on the ripoff factor of the CL seller. Tonearms rarely fail, if the bearings have an issue, you'll see that the rest of the Ttable is in poor shape as well. |
I agree. ^^
When I was buying and selling music gear, I bought and sold many SL-1200s. Like you said, they're pretty easy to check out. Tonearm bearings seemed to be the biggest issue and often they just need adjustment.
PS: it's been a long time since I bought an SL-1200. I looked them up yesterday after reading Clarence's post. Apparently they don't make them anymore? They're selling for a lot of money on ebay.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
$350-500 is typical for a used one.. I thought they did come out with a new one.. at least the ones with the blue LEDs are the latest versions. .not sure what revision they are up to, VI maybe?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Technics keyboards looks alive and well: http://technicskeyboards.com/ But there other products look to be all but out of business: http://www.technics.com/us/ I searched and could not find any new DJ gear for sale.
I sorted high to low price to get rid of all the parts listings, so I missed the average priced ones.
Look at what some of the remaining new 1200s are selling for: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271788630972
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm a little surprised, it reminds me of the early Rega tables that had speed issues. That was due to the way the motor was mounted, and it would cause belt tension to drift. However to see speed instability in a table designed and built in the last year is rather shocking. My other thought based on reading that review is skepticism. He mentions repeatedly that he used "$30K worth of test gear", but then links to An I-phone App for measuring speed stability in the platter?
I'm much more inclined to believe a review from Michael Fremmer, who is widely considered the expert in analog reviews. He used an app as well, and here's what he had to say
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/u-turn%E2%80%99s-remarkable-179-orbit-turntable-crosley-killer
After letting the platter spin for an hour or so I checked the speed accuracy. Playing at the correct speed is job number one. The U-Turn spins accurately at both 33 1/3 and 45rpm. I used the Feickert Platter speed app and the 3150Hz test tone registered 3147.1, which is outstanding. The raw frequency deviation was significant at around ±.5% but once it was low pass filtered to remove record eccentricity induced wow it was down to very acceptable levels especially for a turntable at this low price.
His biggest complaint was the cheap cartridge and conical stylus, which just doesn't track like a modern fine line or elliptical stylus like you get on the Project Carbon.
my biggest issue with all those tables is the plastic, lots and lots of plastic, everywhere. The problem here is that plastic resonates at audio frequencies and that finds it's way back into the cartridge, which gives you ambient noise competing with and replacing your music. Also, the tonearm cables are built in , they're "too short" based on the review, and your stuck with them.
If It was me, I would spring for the extra $89. and get the Project Carbon
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-75872-pro-ject-debut-carbon-turntable.aspx?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=120281332850&gclid=COfbqan15MUCFQ6OaQodaK0AVA
, it's yellow, but they have the blue as well for an extra $26.
Neither have the built in phono pre-amp, but stop and consider what quality of PP your getting that's built into a $200. TT?
Assuming the yellow project Carbon, + a $50. phono pre, that will get you to $400. Consider $100. of that total is the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge.
To me that's pretty cheap for vinyl, which is just not a budget hobby.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|
