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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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"Sometimes i wonder if its worth sharing, as nobody seems interested to move forward, but prefer going along the same track as always."
I can't contribute so I keep my mouth shut most of the time.
What camera did you end up buying? Mine is broken and need a new one, but if yours fit my needs I might get one and share some photos with you to get some input. Same camera and settings should be the next best thing with having a professional over to help me out.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | "Sometimes i wonder if its worth sharing, as nobody seems interested to move forward, but prefer going along the same track as always."
I can't contribute so I keep my mouth shut most of the time.
What camera did you end up buying? Mine is broken and need a new one, but if yours fit my needs I might get one and share some photos with you to get some input. Same camera and settings should be the next best thing with having a professional over to help me out. |
I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures.
Ill need another lens for sure, i might just need to find out how to use the camera. Ill go beat up the guy who sold it to me tomorow.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | "Sometimes i wonder if its worth sharing, as nobody seems interested to move forward, but prefer going along the same track as always."
I can't contribute so I keep my mouth shut most of the time.
What camera did you end up buying? Mine is broken and need a new one, but if yours fit my needs I might get one and share some photos with you to get some input. Same camera and settings should be the next best thing with having a professional over to help me out. |
I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures.
Ill need another lens for sure, i might just need to find out how to use the camera. Ill go beat up the guy who sold it to me tomorow. |
Here's you answer..
http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_tv.html
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures |
Try to use as much zoom as you can, that will straighten out the geometry.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Try to use as much zoom as you can, that will straighten out the geometry. |
Generally, not true - especially these days. But, it completely depends on the lens.
| stridsvognen wrote: | I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures.
Ill need another lens for sure, i might just need to find out how to use the camera. Ill go beat up the guy who sold it to me tomorow. |
Actually, you don't want a zoom lens at all if you can help it for this kind of work. The 18-55 kit lens is probably significantly better though, since the large range zooms like 18-270, 18-200, etc. are the absolute worst in terms of geometric distortion. They generally have pretty bad barrel distortion at the wide end, and severe pincushion at the long end. Even worse, there is nowhere in their entire range where they don't have some distortion. In the middle, they usually have a horrible mixture of both simultaneously, i.e. pincushion in the center and barrel at the edges. It's bad, a horizontal line will actually have a wave - down, up, and then back down and up again. Most people never notice it, but if you're taking photos like this, or if you take photos of architecture, that when it shows up.
I would have recommended an entry-level Canon or Nikon instead of the Pentax, personally. Lenses - both the quality and the selection - are generally a bit better from the big two. While the price is a touch higher, resale is generally better, too.
As far as the dark bands, that's not the camera's fault. You just need to slow the shutter speed down. If your refresh is 60p and you want a nice solid capture, just make sure your shutter is open for at least 3-4 refreshes, or 1/15-1/20th of a second. You can use manual mode, or you can set shutter priority mode, and those dark bands will go away. As a side benefit, the lens aperture will stop down and you'll have better depth-of-field for shots that aren't perfectly parallel to the screen.
This is one of the many reasons I don't like screen shots. No matter how knowledgable a person is with respect to photography, there's still a massive amount of variation in lenses, shutter, aperture, screen, source, etc etc etc such that screen shots are rendered essentially useless. Without consistency in camera, lens, settings, position, etc., they're questionable even for your own reference, let alone comparing one in a different country.
Cheers,
SC
Last edited by ecrabb on Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures |
Try to use as much zoom as you can, that will straighten out the geometry. |
Nope.. the geometry is only right around 20mm, at 18 the screen look like a football, and at from 22 and up it look like a curved screen.
I ned to buy a 18-55 lens for it, or just buy a cheep Canon camera who fits my old lenses.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | "Sometimes i wonder if its worth sharing, as nobody seems interested to move forward, but prefer going along the same track as always."
I can't contribute so I keep my mouth shut most of the time.
What camera did you end up buying? Mine is broken and need a new one, but if yours fit my needs I might get one and share some photos with you to get some input. Same camera and settings should be the next best thing with having a professional over to help me out. |
I got a Pentax K500 with a Pentax 18-270 lens, and im not pleased with it, lens do heavy geometry distortion, and i cant take a screenshot where i dont get those dark bands on the pictures.
Ill need another lens for sure, i might just need to find out how to use the camera. Ill go beat up the guy who sold it to me tomorow. |
Here's an interesting thread from 2010 where Scott (TSE from VDC) discusses how to measure MTF using Windows paint: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=23159.html
I asked Scott about the importance of MTF in video and diminishing returns. He said 5% is just viewable, 15% looks pretty good and that its not super important for real life video but holds more relevance for text and graphics. This is a sentiment that Craig has also mentioned previously as well. Increasing the PJ's contrast will also reduce the MTF so like with anything else in CRT there's compromises to be made.
I'm going to take some shots tonight and see if I can calculate the MTF for fun. I might not have the most optimal set up but it's going to be better than most so should be a fun experiment.
I used TSE's method and recorded a dark luminance of 63 and a light luminance of 85 in the 1:1 image from below: (85-63)/(85+63)*100= 14.96%
Here's a normal shot with just green from other side (plenty of phosphor grain)
All 3 colors
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Arcadehappiness
Joined: 14 Jun 2014
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for interrupting but I was trying to send a private massage to stridsvognen but as this account is new and I have't been on this forum for ages it was not possible. For the record I have been in this hobby for more than a decade and have one marquee ultra 8500 and one marquee ultra 9500 lc.
So this "mail" is in Danish. (Sorry)
Hej stridsvognen
Først og fremmest herligt at opleve at der stadig er en person i Dk der interesserer sig for og bruger crt projekterer. Jeg har nogle marquee'er som jeg overvejer at skille mig af med. Derudover har jeg aldrig drømt om at se en g90 i action, så derfor ville jeg spørge hvor du bor i landet samt om jeg må få din email eller telefonnummer.
Mine oplysninger er:
Henrik Bøggild
arcadehappiness@hotmail.com
60727291
Gentofte
Håber at høre fra dig og snakke crt og teknik 
Mvh
Henrik
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'll bet that perforated Stewart material gives it an extra edge of sharpness alone. Imaginary or not it dose look very crisp and clean and without that plastic look to the surface as cheap once like mine has.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | I'll bet that perforated Stewart material gives it an extra edge of sharpness alone. Imaginary or not it dose look very crisp and clean and without that plastic look to the surface as cheap once like mine has. |
The perforations actually reduce sharpness and make it hard to photograph up close. Thats why i taped the piece of paper to the screen. With that said the st130 materials is very sharp
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I went to the camera shop today, and he thinks my Pentax K500 is defect, so i got a Canon 700D instead with a 18-135mm lens.
A fast test showed about the same geometry problems, but with my old 18-55mm canon lens it was perfect.
The Canon feels cheep, and plastic flimsy, so im thinking to just get the Pentax K3 with 18-55mm lens, from what i can find online its the best camera in its class, and cost around the same as the Canon i went home with.
Anyone with more camera experience who can kick in here.?
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | I went to the camera shop today, and he thinks my Pentax K500 is defect, so i got a Canon 700D instead with a 18-135mm lens.
A fast test showed about the same geometry problems, but with my old 18-55mm canon lens it was perfect.
The Canon feels cheep, and plastic flimsy, so im thinking to just get the Pentax K3 with 18-55mm lens, from what i can find online its the best camera in its class, and cost around the same as the Canon i went home with.
Anyone with more camera experience who can kick in here.? |
I've been reading up on cameras a lot, but are not giving in depth advice because that's for someone else to do, but I do like the Sony SLT-A58 personally. I want to get a camera that I could have next to the projector and zoom in on dots while doing magnets and other stuff looking through the LCD at the back. If you have tested this I would very much like to hear about it.
The other option would be a camera close to the screen connected to a laptop next to the pj. But then you need that also.. which I don't.
EDIT: Snapshot.com actually had Sony A58 beat down with other options so maybe not so good after all. Good site with camera vs camera to get you forward until you have your winner. I also look for features like 1080p @ 60fps and 720p @ 120fps for doing small videos of my dogs in slow motion. In the end it'll be mix between a full size and a compact camera with interchangeable lenses. I'm almost sure of it because DSLR are so bulky..
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
So no matter what they are built for i select the one trowing the best image, and by far thats the moddet Marquee. As i wrote before the sony looks boring compared.
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That is your opinion based on your experience with one G90 and one Marquee.
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Ask Craig whats the best he ever seen, a moddet Marquee or a G90.? see if you can make him share his experiences here.
Also would be nice if he have seen these new Marquee mods mike came up with, and commented on the performance. |
I already know what Craig thinks. I will try to refrain from commenting for him or putting words in his mouth.
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So at this moment ill think the G90 is for those who is ok with ok, and like something more simple to setup, or just call Craig to get it done.
If you want more you need something else, and it takes more work, and time getting to know how to operate it.
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If that was truly the case, then why even bother with a G90 or 909. The Marquees are less expensive on the used market.
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The G90 will be a nice 720P 72hz machine, still with peaking distortion, but never a full blown 1080P 72hz killer. And the power of 1:1 pixel mapping its huge, when resolved good with low distortion and noise.
I know many run 60Hz, but sorry that just dont do it to me, and 817P 72hz is not realy a option, as only 1 resolution can be tweaked on the marquee to hold a really sharp focus.
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Having watched 1080p 72 on both Craigs and Cliffs G90s, I will have to disagree.
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Ill love to visite some of you guys in the future, see your setups, and ill promise to say 100% what comes into my mind without holding anything back. |
I encourage you to do so. A Virgina meet was discussed at Cliffys for the late summer or early fall. If that happens, then you could see Blendzilla and maybe a CIR90. I believe William and Don are only a couple of miles away from each other.
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
So no matter what they are built for i select the one trowing the best image, and by far thats the moddet Marquee. As i wrote before the sony looks boring compared.
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That is your opinion based on your experience with one G90 and one Marquee.
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Ask Craig whats the best he ever seen, a moddet Marquee or a G90.? see if you can make him share his experiences here.
Also would be nice if he have seen these new Marquee mods mike came up with, and commented on the performance. |
I already know what Craig thinks. I will try to refrain from commenting for him or putting words in his mouth.
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So at this moment ill think the G90 is for those who is ok with ok, and like something more simple to setup, or just call Craig to get it done.
If you want more you need something else, and it takes more work, and time getting to know how to operate it.
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If that was truly the case, then why even bother with a G90 or 909. The Marquees are less expensive on the used market.
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The G90 will be a nice 720P 72hz machine, still with peaking distortion, but never a full blown 1080P 72hz killer. And the power of 1:1 pixel mapping its huge, when resolved good with low distortion and noise.
I know many run 60Hz, but sorry that just dont do it to me, and 817P 72hz is not realy a option, as only 1 resolution can be tweaked on the marquee to hold a really sharp focus.
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Having watched 1080p 72 on both Craigs and Cliffs G90s, I will have to disagree.
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Ill love to visite some of you guys in the future, see your setups, and ill promise to say 100% what comes into my mind without holding anything back. |
I encourage you to do so. A Virgina meet was discussed at Cliffys for the late summer or early fall. If that happens, then you could see Blendzilla and maybe a CIR90. I believe William and Don are only a couple of miles away from each other. |
First i would love to go see some different setups, so if timing fits ill be there.
2nd, i was waiting your reply, almost thinking u missed my post. 
I have 1 G90. 1 8500AC Ultra. 1 Vidikron Vision One. 1 9553LC Ultra. more will come.
How many G90 do i need, to be allowed to comment on its performance.?
You very well know that the Marquee is a beast to get under control, so for sure its not for everyone.
I believe the G90 performs much more the same out of the box, so in CRT world its closer to a plug and play machine.
With the G90 there is around 0 options to buy mods, well i got a MP moddet BA board.
The Marquee have a huge amount of DIY mods, MP made lots of different editions, and do they change the game.. ohh yeah, its not just like umm ahh umm, its like night and day.
A standard Marquee who performs medium, will not beat a G90, the best standard Marquee, with the right standard boards, will in some ways, for me ill prefer a good standard Marquee, that is based on preferences.
What i dont understand is that you dont seem to take notice of the G90 poor bandwidth, and peaking distortion, and can think a bit further to how that degrades the picture, trust me its not all about horizontal sharpness.
Also the noise layers on the G90 degrades the picture, its washes out contrast, and together with the bandwidth it lacks lots and lots of color resolution. It just cant display the color graduation and fine details like a machine with bandwidth headroom, and low noise.
Its fine you think the G90 is a great 1080P 72hz machine, it just makes me wonder if you have experienced a fully moddet Marquee running its best.?
I think Justin might comment here, i believe he have seen more different CRT setups then i have, i know he visited Mike Parker, not sure if he have visited Craig.? Im quite sure he have seen different G90 in action.
So maybe he will share some experience.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: |
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My frame of reference for a while has been a heavily modified marquee. The marquee's strong point has always been it's depth of image. I'd attibute that to it's BW capabilities and that results in extensive background detail. The G90 has awesome focus yokes that give it really good foreground detail. Now when you install a modded MP video chain it kills the noise, reduces spot size and maintains a consistent black pedestal/offset. The foreground and background are both very sharp and the low level performance is the best i have seen.
My photo of the 1:1 shows comparable sharpness to the G90 but with less roll off. However, not all marquees are on that level. I can say that the best two pj's i have seen in person are mine and mike parker's.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | My frame of reference for a while has been a heavily modified marquee. The marquee's strong point has always been it's depth of image. I'd attibute that to it's BW capabilities and that results in extensive background detail. The G90 has awesome focus yokes that give it really good foreground detail. Now when you install a modded MP video chain it kills the noise, reduces spot size and maintains a consistent black pedestal/offset. The foreground and background are both very sharp and the low level performance is the best i have seen.
My photo of the 1:1 shows comparable sharpness to the G90 but with less roll off. However, not all marquees are on that level. I can say that the best two pj's i have seen in person are mine and mike parker's. |
How dose it stack up against a JVC digital? Sharpness and contrast.
As for myself, last night I re-set the pj and changed CLM for another, kept my own sigmator board (as it's the only one that I have) but blue remained blurry even then.
But, I let it warm up thoroughly this time, changed to nulled 6-pole magnets and got an image that does not drift, I can watch right away because I turned it on this morning just to check. Very pleased about that! Sure, 1-2 clicks upwards hear and there, but that could be just misalignment on my part, so I expect it to get better still as I fine tune tonight. And also, that is something you need to walk up to the screen to even see.
I never knew the whole procedure with setting flare on 6-pole magnets before (and never knew with 4-pole either as I just settle with a nice round halo) but I took master focus down to zero and tried, but ended up leaving it with it's nulled position.
The little twirl that I made, with flare on green with dots, just made it triangular and strange. One thing is for sure, the bright flare is at 10 o'clock and not in the middle, so there's some changes to be made, and I'll do it again next week when and after I buy a proper pen to mark the null position. I'll get it right someday. Btw, I really missed having something to magnify the image with because there's a trench between the pj and screen now.. I'm sick of it.
At one point, half way through, I made an error and used the remote to move the image when I should have used magnets, so I had to start over, so this is one of the reasons it's so stable now, I'm sure I've cheated with some of that before. Yes, there is some ringing left with current set up, and if I get rid of those some drifting might come back, but I'll try it on another channel to see if I can't get it right anyway.
EDIT: Sorry self, the pj starts off perfectly aligned, but over the course of 2 hours it gradually moves towards the right anyway. Well, correcting it just now with the remote, only means it's going to behave like before and start off cold to the right and move to towards the middle, as it should. But movement is not bad at all.. a few mm only.
Last edited by thewolfman on Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Just been playing with my setup, and using the Spears & Munsil croma multi burst pattern.
My findings were that i need to use HDMI 2 out of my new oppo 103D, HDMI 1 have a croma error.
Then the Radiance also have a croma eror passing 4:2:2, or any other color spaces.
The Moome card have a small error on the green 1:1 horizontal croma multiburst pattern.
The best result comes running direct out of my Oppo 103D HDMI 2 into the moome.
I have confirmed this with my flat screen.
Running Oppo 103D HDMI 1 out to the Radiance into the moome just makes the 1:1 horizontal and vertical croma multiburst almost disappear.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: |
How dose it stack up against a JVC digital? Sharpness and contrast.
As for myself, last night I re-set the pj and changed CLM for another, kept my own sigmator board (as it's the only one that I have) but blue remained blurry even then.
But, I let it warm up thoroughly this time, changed to nulled 6-pole magnets and got an image that does not drift, I can watch right away because I turned it on this morning just to check. Very pleased about that! Sure, 1-2 clicks upwards hear and there, but that could be just misalignment on my part, so I expect it to get better still as I fine tune tonight. And also, that is something you need to walk up to the screen to even see.
I never knew the whole procedure with setting flare on 6-pole magnets before (and never knew with 4-pole either as I just settle with a nice round halo) but I took master focus down to zero and tried, but ended up leaving it with it's nulled position.
The little twirl that I made, with flare on green with dots, just made it triangular and strange. One thing is for sure, the bright flare is at 10 o'clock and not in the middle, so there's some changes to be made, and I'll do it again next week when and after I buy a proper pen to mark the null position. I'll get it right someday. Btw, I really missed having something to magnify the image with because there's a trench between the pj and screen now.. I'm sick of it.
At one point, half way through, I made an error and used the remote to move the image when I should have used magnets, so I had to start over, so this is one of the reasons it's so stable now, I'm sure I've cheated with some of that before. Yes, there is some ringing left with current set up, and if I get rid of those some drifting might come back, but I'll try it on another channel to see if I can't get it right anyway.
EDIT: Sorry self, the pj starts off perfectly aligned, but over the course of 2 hours it gradually moves towards the right anyway. Well, correcting it just now with the remote, only means it's going to behave like before and start off cold to the right and move to towards the middle, as it should. But movement is not bad at all.. a few mm only. |
Kurt is the best person to ask regarding a JVC digital comparison because he is one of the few if not only forum member to have both working in his home simultaneously. He's actually able to do an A/B comparison on the spot.
Regarding astig, you need to unplug the astig board while adjusting the magnetics. Any type of electronic compensation is done after everything is finished. If you astig and focus are set up optimally you can ramp focus to 100 and the grid will not move laterally or vertically.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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The moome card in the Marquee.
Green tube displaying the Croma multiburst.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Luma and croma multiburst on screen.
Running 1080P 60hz direct from OPPO 103D HDMI 2 out, as the Radiance has limited croma performance.
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