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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Just got back on track with my Marquee last night, had a very nice movie experience, far the sharpest brightest, most punchy dynamic picture i have seen to date.
I still miss a lot of focus work, and calibration.
Screenshot 1:1 pattern, has a bit of overshoot on the vertical lines, and even i did convergence 5 min before taking the shot it drifted off.
It had not finished heating up.
The level on vertical and horizontal box dont match perfect, but i think its the test i have done having the darkest between the lines in both directions.
Look like ill soon have all the parts needet to finish this project, and be able to service it for a lifetime.
Standard LCP tubes with HD10E lenses
Running 1080P 72hz 180Mhz. |
Can you show a pic of the green tube?
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Just got back on track with my Marquee last night, had a very nice movie experience, far the sharpest brightest, most punchy dynamic picture i have seen to date.
I still miss a lot of focus work, and calibration.
Screenshot 1:1 pattern, has a bit of overshoot on the vertical lines, and even i did convergence 5 min before taking the shot it drifted off.
It had not finished heating up.
The level on vertical and horizontal box dont match perfect, but i think its the test i have done having the darkest between the lines in both directions.
Look like ill soon have all the parts needet to finish this project, and be able to service it for a lifetime.
Standard LCP tubes with HD10E lenses
Running 1080P 72hz 180Mhz. |
Can you show a pic of the green tube? |
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only?
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
Ok ill do later.
Tell me what you are looking for on a green tube only that can not be seen on the picture i posted, and ill know what to look for when taking the picture.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
If you don't mind I'd like to know what pj your using? for a long time I thought you had a JVC digital but recently I learned it's modified Marquee?
Btw, Kurt, I just missed out on a carcus Marquee 8000 just minutes ago that I bidded 200$ for. Not on ebay but at home across the country, I bidded for all the boards + LVPS +HVPS, but the other bidder took me out with a cool 285$ for the whole pj. I needed that carcus to troubleshoot what's wrong with my blurry blue tube.
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Still 180Mhz Green tube only. 03VIM
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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180Mhz Green tube only 02VIM
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Looking at Craig's green pic and yours, I would say the G90 is better. It will be interesting to see what the results are when you have Craig out to setup your HT.
| thewolfman wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
If you don't mind I'd like to know what pj your using? for a long time I thought you had a JVC digital but recently I learned it's modified Marquee?
Btw, Kurt, I just missed out on a carcus Marquee 8000 just minutes ago that I bidded 200$ for. Not on ebay but at home across the country, I bidded for all the boards + LVPS +HVPS, but the other bidder took me out with a cool 285$ for the whole pj. I needed that carcus to troubleshoot what's wrong with my blurry blue tube. |
I am not using any pj right now. I do own two G90s and two G70s. The G90 will be setup once I am done rehabbing my apartment.
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Looking at Craig's green pic and yours, I would say the G90 is better. It will be interesting to see what the results are when you have Craig out to setup your HT.
| thewolfman wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
If you don't mind I'd like to know what pj your using? for a long time I thought you had a JVC digital but recently I learned it's modified Marquee?
Btw, Kurt, I just missed out on a carcus Marquee 8000 just minutes ago that I bidded 200$ for. Not on ebay but at home across the country, I bidded for all the boards + LVPS +HVPS, but the other bidder took me out with a cool 285$ for the whole pj. I needed that carcus to troubleshoot what's wrong with my blurry blue tube. |
I am not using any pj right now. I do own two G90s and two G70s. The G90 will be setup once I am done rehabbing my apartment. |
Be nice to point out what you think is better, and worse on this shot from Craigs G90.
Also take consideration how the different camera making the shots handle the light.
I can later try play with my camera and see if it will do something like what i see on Craigs screenshot.
Im running bright, very bright, as bright or brighter than the G90.
Ill be taking up the battle against any CRT, with this Marquee with the worse magnetics made for CRT, and LCP tubes over any LUG tube machine.
Using no stigmator, just a pure lousy flare magnet setup, and some focus adjustment, and lens adjustment done 4m from the screen.
Ill benefit only from the video chain in this modified Marquee, who with Greg Eisman terms will outperform any G90 700%
And bring in any expert you care to help you.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Kurt's is more uniform without the peaking. Hard to tell weather the issue is set up or the camera as all Digital camera's add varying degrees of sharpness. Would be good the see Kurt's once it's all dialed in.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Craig's is definitely Sharper . |
Ill try later put my camera on a stand instead of free hand shots, and ill try keep the shutter open a bit longer to match the light in Craigs shots.
Explain how long a horizontal signal need to be on both projectors before wich one is sharper than the other, and how the peaking destortion effects the vertical resolution, and how many vertical 1:1 lines has to pass before the signal starts to show a decent behavior, and how that relates to movie content.
You have a G90, try put it on the screen and tell me what you see 1st hand experience, and how much sharper it is.
I agree that Craigs shots is sharper, and if you focus on the areas who is not filled with distortion its looking sweet.
Im sure Craig will post some new 1:1 shots with the new VS old sony Full HD moome cards soon, and maybe with all 3 tubes so we can see the final result.
While we wait ill see if i can tighten the flare magnets a bit more and do optical focus and stigmator adjustment on the Marquee.
Who knows i might even get a moddet 03VIM with the mini boards on to kick the performance a bit more up..
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience tweaking the astig along with the optical and electronic focus will result in improved sharpness but it has no material impact on the uniformity (assuming the set up isn't completely f'd up to begin with). I also experimented with G2/drive settings and they also did not have a material impact on the horizontal (left 1:1 box) uniformity.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | In my experience tweaking the astig along with the optical and electronic focus will result in improved sharpness but it has no material impact on the uniformity (assuming the set up isn't completely f'd up to begin with). I also experimented with G2/drive settings and they also did not have a material impact on the horizontal (left 1:1 box) uniformity. |
Same results here, they only tweak the spot size, and that effecting the gap betwen lines. and it can push around color balance running all 3 colors if they dont have a close to identical sharpness performance.
You can detect bandwidt and peaking distortion on very messed up focus.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Looking at Craig's green pic and yours, I would say the G90 is better. It will be interesting to see what the results are when you have Craig out to setup your HT.
| thewolfman wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
If you don't mind I'd like to know what pj your using? for a long time I thought you had a JVC digital but recently I learned it's modified Marquee?
Btw, Kurt, I just missed out on a carcus Marquee 8000 just minutes ago that I bidded 200$ for. Not on ebay but at home across the country, I bidded for all the boards + LVPS +HVPS, but the other bidder took me out with a cool 285$ for the whole pj. I needed that carcus to troubleshoot what's wrong with my blurry blue tube. |
I am not using any pj right now. I do own two G90s and two G70s. The G90 will be setup once I am done rehabbing my apartment. |
Be nice to point out what you think is better, and worse on this shot from Craigs G90.
Also take consideration how the different camera making the shots handle the light.
I can later try play with my camera and see if it will do something like what i see on Craigs screenshot.
Im running bright, very bright, as bright or brighter than the G90.
Ill be taking up the battle against any CRT, with this Marquee with the worse magnetics made for CRT, and LCP tubes over any LUG tube machine.
Using no stigmator, just a pure lousy flare magnet setup, and some focus adjustment, and lens adjustment done 4m from the screen.
Ill benefit only from the video chain in this modified Marquee, who with Greg Eisman terms will outperform any G90 700%
And bring in any expert you care to help you.  |
As Nash said, Craigs is sharper. Period. You can say it is camera, etc. but the fact is Craigs is sharper. I don't see how one could make a judgment on uniformity based on your pic.
Maybe you can get your pj to perform better than the Sony and I hope you do. I am not going to waste my time trying to post pics of my G90, when I have already seen Craigs and Cliffs with test patterns. I doubt I will come close to setting up my pj to the same standard as Ken Whitcomb or Craig.
You have mentioned in the past of having Craig out to set up your pjs. With Craig knowing what the Sonys can do, he should be able to extract the maximum performance out of the pj and if not then diagnose if there is a problem. Craig has set up plenty of Marquees (even Tim's blend), so I think he can do the same with your pj. You can then have a good standard in which to compare.
One thing that should be noted about the Sonys and Marquees is that the Sonys were built for the broadcast industry. They were made for pretty much one purpose, so the G90s were pretty consistent from first one made to the last. The Marquees on the other hand were made by two different companies (Electrohome and VDC) and were made for a variety of applications (mostly sims though). I believe this is why Marquee modding became a hobby unto itself - to get it to a consistently high level. Nothing wrong with that and I think MP, Nash and others have done a great job with r and d to extract the most out of this line of CRTs.
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Looking at Craig's green pic and yours, I would say the G90 is better. It will be interesting to see what the results are when you have Craig out to setup your HT.
| thewolfman wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Um ok. How about a pic of the test pattern with green tube only? |
If you don't mind I'd like to know what pj your using? for a long time I thought you had a JVC digital but recently I learned it's modified Marquee?
Btw, Kurt, I just missed out on a carcus Marquee 8000 just minutes ago that I bidded 200$ for. Not on ebay but at home across the country, I bidded for all the boards + LVPS +HVPS, but the other bidder took me out with a cool 285$ for the whole pj. I needed that carcus to troubleshoot what's wrong with my blurry blue tube. |
I am not using any pj right now. I do own two G90s and two G70s. The G90 will be setup once I am done rehabbing my apartment. |
Be nice to point out what you think is better, and worse on this shot from Craigs G90.
Also take consideration how the different camera making the shots handle the light.
I can later try play with my camera and see if it will do something like what i see on Craigs screenshot.
Im running bright, very bright, as bright or brighter than the G90.
Ill be taking up the battle against any CRT, with this Marquee with the worse magnetics made for CRT, and LCP tubes over any LUG tube machine.
Using no stigmator, just a pure lousy flare magnet setup, and some focus adjustment, and lens adjustment done 4m from the screen.
Ill benefit only from the video chain in this modified Marquee, who with Greg Eisman terms will outperform any G90 700%
And bring in any expert you care to help you.  |
As Nash said, Craigs is sharper. Period. You can say it is camera, etc. but the fact is Craigs is sharper. I don't see how one could make a judgment on uniformity based on your pic.
Maybe you can get your pj to perform better than the Sony and I hope you do. I am not going to waste my time trying to post pics of my G90, when I have already seen Craigs and Cliffs with test patterns. I doubt I will come close to setting up my pj to the same standard as Ken Whitcomb or Craig.
You have mentioned in the past of having Craig out to set up your pjs. With Craig knowing what the Sonys can do, he should be able to extract the maximum performance out of the pj and if not then diagnose if there is a problem. Craig has set up plenty of Marquees (even Tim's blend), so I think he can do the same with your pj. You can then have a good standard in which to compare.
One thing that should be noted about the Sonys and Marquees is that the Sonys were built for the broadcast industry. They were made for pretty much one purpose, so the G90s were pretty consistent from first one made to the last. The Marquees on the other hand were made by two different companies (Electrohome and VDC) and were made for a variety of applications (mostly sims though). I believe this is why Marquee modding became a hobby unto itself - to get it to a consistently high level. Nothing wrong with that and I think MP, Nash and others have done a great job with r and d to extract the most out of this line of CRTs. |
I have the G90 and i have the Marquee here, i have the skills i have who aply to both Marquee and SONY, and with that in mind they get treatet the same, i do my best with both to compare, and my G90 being the most expensive even paying for mods and new tubes for the marquee.
Ill agree that the G90 in many ways is a better standard machine, but if you put the Marquee in the hands of someone capable it will stil show a better end result using the right standard boards.
You fail to notice the peaking distortion on the G90 and its missing vertical level and you only focus on the area of the pattern where it looks nice.
If you want it to compete you need a undistorted pattern, where it will perform without needing to run 8 pixels horizontal before the signal settels, or 3-4 vertical on off before it get it right. you will often see close to 1:1 on off in movie material, but hardly anything that looks like the 1:1 pattern and let it get time to settle down.
So no matter what they are built for i select the one trowing the best image, and by far thats the moddet Marquee. As i wrote before the sony looks boring compared.
I did buy the moddet BA board for the G90 and it helps, i also hope to get a better moome card, but i tested different inputs, and the moome card is not to blame the peaking distortion and other problems related in the image, it looks to have some bandwidth limitations.
Ask Craig whats the best he ever seen, a moddet Marquee or a G90.? see if you can make him share his experiences here.
Also would be nice if he have seen these new Marquee mods mike came up with, and commented on the performance.
I know Craig have more calibration experience and know some tricks i dont, but for comparing, i dont need his asistance, that might be nice when the calibration or magnetic setup need its last touch, as long as he cant present a G90 with 200Mhz+bandwidth, who dont have heavy peaking distortion, streaking and lots of noise who washes out the image, it just wont keep up to what i have here already with the Marquee.
So at this moment ill think the G90 is for those who is ok with ok, and like something more simple to setup, or just call Craig to get it done.
If you want more you need something else, and it takes more work, and time getting to know how to operate it.
The G90 will be a nice 720P 72hz machine, still with peaking distortion, but never a full blown 1080P 72hz killer. And the power of 1:1 pixel mapping its huge, when resolved good with low distortion and noise.
I know many run 60Hz, but sorry that just dont do it to me, and 817P 72hz is not realy a option, as only 1 resolution can be tweaked on the marquee to hold a really sharp focus.
Ill love to visite some of you guys in the future, see your setups, and ill promise to say 100% what comes into my mind without holding anything back.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
I know many run 60Hz, but sorry that just dont do it to me, and 817P 72hz is not realy a option, as only 1 resolution can be tweaked on the marquee to hold a really sharp focus.
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This is also an important point. I agree with this notion because I've been able to get pretty good 1:1 with 1080p/60 but then when I dropped to 800p/72 (which uses less BW) I see worse 1:1 uniformity. I don't think it's possible to have perfect 1:1 across multiple resolutions; you have to pick the res and then optimize for that. Even Scheim-f*ck will be different from one to the next.
From those images Craig's G90 is (as Cliff would say) sharp! sharp! sharp! but Kurt's showing less BW roll off in his photo. The MTF is a combination of BW and focus; with the former being the biggest challenge for CRT.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Convergence and purity in color CRTs[edit]
Due to limitations in the dimensional precision with which CRTs can be manufactured economically, it has not been practically possible to build color CRTs in which three electron beams could be aligned to hit phosphors of respective color in acceptable coordination, solely on the basis of the geometric configuration of the electron gun axes and gun aperture positions, shadow mask apertures, etc. The shadow mask ensures that one beam will only hit spots certain colors of phosphors, but minute variations in physical alignment of the internal parts among individual CRTs will cause variations in the exact alignment of the beams through the shadow mask, allowing some electrons from, for example, the red beam to hit, say, blue phosphors, unless some individual compensation is made for the variance among individual tubes.
Color convergence and color purity are two aspects of this single problem. Firstly, for correct color rendering it is necessary that regardless of where the beams are deflected on the screen, they hit the same spot (and nominally pass through the same hole or slot) on the shadow mask. This is called convergence.[20] More specifically, the convergence at the center of the screen (with no deflection field applied by the yoke) is called static convergence, and the convergence over the rest of the screen area is called dynamic convergence. The beams may converge at the center of the screen and yet stray from each other as they are deflected toward the edges; such a CRT would be said to have good static convergence but poor dynamic convergence. Secondly, each beam must only strike the phosphors of the color it is intended to strike and no others. This is called purity. Like convergence, there is static purity and dynamic purity, with the same meanings of "static" and "dynamic" as for convergence. Convergence and purity are distinct parameters; a CRT could have good purity but poor convergence, or vice versa. Poor convergence causes color "shadows" or "ghosts" along displayed edges and contours, as if the image on the screen were intaglio printed with poor registration. Poor purity causes objects on the screen to appear off-color while their edges remain sharp. Purity and convergence problems can occur at the same time, in the same or different areas of the screen or both over the whole screen, and either uniformly or to greater or lesser degrees over different parts of the screen.
The solution to the static convergence and purity problems is a set of color alignment magnets installed around the neck of the CRT. These movable weak permanent magnets are usually mounted on the back end of the deflection yoke assembly and are set at the factory to compensate for any static purity and convergence errors that are intrinsic to the unadjusted tube. Typically there are two or three pairs of two magnets in the form of rings made of plastic impregnated with a magnetic material, with their magnetic fields parallel to the planes of the magnets, which are perpendicular to the electron gun axes. Each pair of magnetic rings forms a single effective magnet whose field vector can be fully and freely adjusted (in both direction and magnitude). By rotating a pair of magnets relative to each other, their relative field alignment can be varied, adjusting the effective field strength of the pair. (As they rotate relative to each other, each magnet's field can be considered to have two opposing components at right angles, and these four components [two each for two magnets] form two pairs, one pair reinforcing each other and the other pair opposing and canceling each other. Rotating away from alignment, the magnets' mutually reinforcing field components decrease as they are traded for increasing opposed, mutually cancelling components.) By rotating a pair of magnets together, preserving the relative angle between them, the direction of their collective magnetic field can be varied. Overall, adjusting all of the convergence/purity magnets allows a finely tuned slight electron beam deflection and/or lateral offset to be applied, which compensates for minor static convergence and purity errors intrinsic to the uncalibrated tube. Once set, these magnets are usually glued in place, but normally they can be freed and readjusted in the field (e.g. by a TV repair shop) if necessary.
On some CRTs, additional fixed adjustable magnets are added for dynamic convergence and/or dynamic purity at specific points on the screen, typically near the corners or edges. Further adjustment of dynamic convergence and purity typically cannot be done passively, but requires active compensation circuits.
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
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stridsvognen Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Astig or the CPC magnets are called CPC magnets for a reason. CPC stands for Color Purity Correction magnets. They play a large part in uniformity.
Nashou |
I think you need to calibrate the understanding of uniformity with Justin, as i think we might not put it in the same location, no need to go way off track for a misunderstanding.
He will be way better to explain this common experience we got, and if it takes another word to make everyone to understand where we are going, im sure he will find one.
It seems to be hard for those that have not played with the latest mods MP have made to understand how truly amassing this looks.
Sometimes i wonder if its worth sharing, as nobody seems interested to move forward, but prefer going along the same track as always.
If peaking distortion, insufficient bandwidth, and different kinds of noise and other video chain related issues is to prefer, i strongly suggest everyone hang on to those old standard CRT projectors. Maybe change some caps if you belive in that.
I prefer progress and get something that moves forward, and i truly found something, even spent a fortune to buy another CRT just to compare, and confirm what i suspected from screenshots posted of movie material and test patterns, and truly the impression of the G90 match every shot posted in here i have seen.
Some ask.. why did i buy a G90.. I believe i need it to know if im on the right track, or running off track, so the experiense have been well worth the money spent.
Next move might be to put the new LUG tubes in the Marquee, see if it cut a hole in the tubes.
I doubt they will perform better, as i already have scanlines on the tube face running 1080P 72hz, and i dont want a horizontal scanline gap visible on screen.
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