|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just got this article in email this morning. It's a good read, and very relevant to the discussion of recent in this thread - the future of music for audiophiles. I've posted excerpts, but go read the whole article.
http://hometheaterreview.com/exactly-why-vinyl-isnt-the-future-of-audiophilia/
| Quote: | | I know. I know. I just crossed over the audiophile fine line, but it is about time that somebody lobbed a few logic bombs at the argument that won't go away: how increasing vinyl record sales mean boom times for the audiophile industry. Sadly, vinyl isn't going to be the answer, but there is hope. Trust me, there is hope. For now, let's dig into the vinyl argument a little bit and don't worry - we are going to want to hear from you in the comments below. |
<snip>
| Quote: | Here are some of the critical issues with vinyl as an audiophile format:
• Vinyl has very limited dynamics compared to all modern formats. Vinyl has about 65 dB of dynamic range, as opposed to the 30-plus-year-old digital compact disc at 95 db. The more modern Blu-ray disc packs 120 dB of dynamic range and can throw in 24/192 times 7.1 channels of music, with 1080 uncompressed video from a $100 player and an $8 HDMI cable, and Blu-ray is also highly copy-protected.
• Vinyl suffers from very high signal to noise ratio, compared to digital formats. Even if the distortion makes the format sound "warm," it doesn't make it sound like the master, which is the whole point of a high-end audio system.
• Vinyl discs start to wear from the first play and never are better than their first play. While the compact disc's 30-year-old claims of "perfect sound - forever" were a bit bloated back in the day, a 30-year-old compact disc plays a lot better than a 30-year-old LP when both have been played a comparable number of times over the decades.
• Vinyl is not a portable format, unlike a compact disc, a ripped digital file or, more relevant, an HD download in 24-bit 192 kHz resolution. Today's consumers, especially Generation Y, demand mobility. Look at the first weekend's sales of the Apple iPad mini from the Huffington Post. Over 3,000,000 units were sold in a weekend. How long has it been since 3,000,000 turntables were sold? Respectfully, it has been decades.
• Vinyl offers no meaningful option for surround sound (sorry, Quadraphonic doesn't count, no matter how geeky you want to get). If you have a home theater, why wouldn't you want to listen to remixed versions of your favorite records that offer new perspectives on your favorite music? If you don't like the mix, then on a format like Blu-ray, there is plenty of disc space for you to get a 24/96 remaster right from the master tape, using the best converters and mastering processes that money can buy.
• Vinyl doesn't support video (no kidding), which is the number one reason why SACD never had a chance in hell at being a successful format back in the day.
• There is nothing about vinyl that is HD, unlike satellite television, video games, Blu-ray movies and other popular media formats today. Vinyl simply doesn't have the bandwidth to be HD. For that matter, neither does the compact disc at 16/44.1.
|
<snip>
| Quote: | | I am sure some people are going to be pissed off, but the facts need to come to light, because too much smoke is being blown up our collective asses about how 39 percent growth reprints a meaningful trend. If vinyl grows 39 percent for the next ten years, it still won't be meaningful compared to an also-dead format, the compact disc. What we need is an audiophile format that is as analogous to the master as possible, whether the format is analog or digital. Two-inch analog master tapes (which none of us have - even those with quarter-inch reel-to-reel decks) can get you really close to the master tape, but the format is unwieldy for a multitude of reasons. Blu-ray, from the digital angle, can deliver the desired resolution to get your audio system playing near-master tape levels of resolution befitting a killer audio rig and that can come from a cheapie player and a HDMI cable. Digital downloads from the likes of HD Tracks and other venues also can fuel your audio race car suitably, but without meaningful integration into platforms like Apple computers, tablets and AppleTV, most audiophile downloads are well-intentioned options that live on their own technological island. |
You can quibble or argue with all those things all you want, but there are immutable realities. I agree with most of what he's saying, and I think I represent a much larger demographic than the "vinyl crowd".
Personally, I can see having a 2-channel setup "some day", and even playing around with vinyl - I have some, my dad has a lot from the 60's and 70's... But because of space and budget, it's simply impossible for me right now. OTOH, I love music and would buy music in a downloadable digital file if it were high-resolution, and I'd pay extra for that if it were reasonable. I can buy CDs all day long from Amazon for $8-12. Electronic downloads from Apple or other sources are usually around $10. I'd pay $15 if I could get a set of high-res files and some electronic files to print my own cover if I wanted.
The digital downloads from HD Tracks are dumb. A physical CD that's pressed, printed, boxed, inventoried, shipped, inventoried, and shipped again, from Amazon is $8-12. A set of high-res digital files with no cover, no liner notes, with no physical handling costs - just digital files - is $20. Yeah, guys... That's a good way to ensure that will remain VERY niche.
They'll get this figured out in a couple of years. The music industry is a little slow... Like the dumb kid in class - that kind of slow.
SC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I got that e-mail too Steve. Yes the numbers are better. But its the sound that matters to some. Not the Quality of the sound, just the SOUND man can you dig it dude  lol. I agree with him as well but for my ears, sorry a LP on a great rig is more enjoyable than a CD on a good rig. Personal preference is what its about.
Now I mostly listen to my laptop via front row over my adcom pre amp and amps at work. but when I'm home I toss on an LP.
I just really enjoy the format.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not discounting how vinyl sounds to you or any other vinyl fan, Athanasios... But that's not the point of the article. The point is the future of music for audiophiles, and that future isn't going to come from vinyl. The point is that the music labels need to get their heads out of their asses and give audiophiles something better than vinyl OR CD, which each have their drawbacks. You may like vinyl, I may like CD, but the point is there's something even better. I want that, but I can't really get it.
Of course, the other problems is mastering and loudness war, and no distribution format (including vinyl or digital download) is going to fix that.
SC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ecrabb wrote: | I'm not discounting how vinyl sounds to you or any other vinyl fan, Athanasios... But that's not the point of the article. The point is the future of music for audiophiles, and that future isn't going to come from vinyl. The point is that the music labels need to get their heads out of their asses and give audiophiles something better than vinyl OR CD, which each have their drawbacks. You may like vinyl, I may like CD, but the point is there's something even better. I want that, but I can't really get it.
Of course, the other problems is mastering and loudness war, and no distribution format (including vinyl or digital download) is going to fix that.
SC |
is it the format provided be it cd or hdcd or sacd or any other high resolution digital media or de da conversion at peoples homes?
i think the latter.
this should boost sound quality significantly.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalose.aspx
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have heard those buffalo dac, and lots of ESS sabre chips in different players and dac.. Its just not working for me.. I still prefer my old 1bit Audio Alchemy dac.. XDP and DTI with PS four and PS one. With the old Denon DCD 3560 drive.
My god i wish for something that is more simple and newer.. Ill keep looking.. But still prefer the reference vinyl records from around 1975...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ecrabb wrote: |
| Quote: |
• Vinyl doesn't support video (no kidding), which is the number one reason why SACD never had a chance in hell at being a successful format back in the day.
• There is nothing about vinyl that is HD, unlike satellite television, video games, Blu-ray movies and other popular media formats today. Vinyl simply doesn't have the bandwidth to be HD. For that matter, neither does the compact disc at 16/44.1.
|
<snip>
|
[/quote]
The guy makes some good points about where the future is, and the realistically small market for vinyl, but this section was totally bizarre. In thinking about the future of an AUDIO format, and critiques it for not delivering high-definition VIDEO? Like wtf? Those last two were examples of "I don't really have an argument to make here, but here are also some things that vinyl can't do." Yeah, I can't use my records as snow tires either. 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ecrabb wrote: | | Just got this article in email this morning. It's a good read, and very relevant to the discussion of recent in this thread - the future of music for audiophiles. I've posted excerpts, but go read the whole article. |
Thanks. Some points worth considering.
| Quote: | Here are some of the critical issues with vinyl as an audiophile format:
...
• Vinyl suffers from very high signal to noise ratio, compared to digital formats. |
Huh? "Suffers" from _high_ S/N?
| Quote: | • Vinyl doesn't support video (no kidding), which is the number one reason why SACD never had a chance in hell at being a successful format back in the day.
|
He really weakens his arguments here, IMO. I'll go way out on a limb here and make the claim that enjoying a really exceptional audio recording has nothing to do with the visual senses. I can close my eyes and get transported to another venue. Which isn't to say I don't like a great "you are there" concert video experience with amazing sound as well. But that visual stimulus has the potential to distract from focusing on the aural side of the experience.
| Quote: | | • There is nothing about vinyl that is HD, unlike satellite television, video games, Blu-ray movies and other popular media formats today. Vinyl simply doesn't have the bandwidth to be HD. For that matter, neither does the compact disc at 16/44.1. |
This is pretty lame, too. [edit: Oops, I see Chris has already lambasted this one.]
Back to SC:
| Quote: | | The digital downloads from HD Tracks are dumb. A physical CD that's pressed, printed, boxed, inventoried, shipped, inventoried, and shipped again, from Amazon is $8-12. A set of high-res digital files with no cover, no liner notes, with no physical handling costs - just digital files - is $20. Yeah, guys... That's a good way to ensure that will remain VERY niche. |
Um, who is that masked man? Aren't you the one on the last page saying that if the discs disappeared, that would be fine?  Now you're complaining about the sorry state of reality.
_________________
- Tim
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tim,
Perhaps I was unclear since there are several subjects here intertwined. What I meant was that I don't think I'd mind if discs disappeared if there was a comparably-priced, better-quality alternative.
These are my feelings in a nutshell:
- I prefer to purchase physical media
- I have zero interest in inferior-quality digital downloads
- I am interested in better-than-CD quality music
- If I could get digital downloads that are high-res - higher-quality than CD - at a price comparable to buying a CD, I might consider eschewing physical media to download.
SC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|
