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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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You know I feel like I should be moderating this thread or something...
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Oh let the kids play.lol
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Thanks
Walter
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RayN999
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 207
Location: Minneapolis, MN
TV/Projector: Sony VPL-VW60 and Toshiba 65H84 CRT RPTV
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy112 wrote: | I've already been aware that vinyl is far better than CD.... Just that I have never owned a good album so they all have the normal pops and scratchiness that everyone here knows of.
I just bought what you could call my 'first' turntable, I've owned a few before, but they were sub-par in performance. The unit I just purchased is a Pioneer PL-600 (the 1978-80 model, NOT the cheap ass 1986-1988 model) Pioneer decided to make identical model numbers for totally different tables, and it took a while to actually find the table I had bought while I was researching it.
It is identical to the 1978 (supposed) flagship model that pioneer made, the PL-600X (which is a black plinth vs the silver plinth of the PL-600). Other than that, they are identical units visually.
Anyway, Since I have now aqquired the table, I need a cartridge for it, and some NEW vinyl. I am waiting to purchase any vinyl until I get the player here and give it a good go over. It needs restoration, as it was sitting on a shelf in the guys house I got it from for over 20 years until I had asked him if he had a turntable.
The PL-600 is a fully automatic direct drive unit, unlike its lighter, cheaper, black belt driven mid to late 80s counterpart. Its not the most amazing unit, however it isn't the worst I've encountered.
I am highly looking forward to getting it!!  |
I'm holding the turntable hostage...
j/k, it'll be out of here in a day or two.
(Jeremy bought it from someone local to my house in Minneapolis, and this other person was bringing by some other equipment for me to repair, so figured I'd "broker" the turntable as I've shipped a variety of things to Jeremy in the past. We were on a weekend visit to MN to check up on the house & attend the auto show & get the turntable.)
Ray
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Ray Nelson
N9QBV
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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I just ran across this today.
http://www.hifivision.com/articles-guides/6788-reflections-talk-father-perceptual-audio-coding.html
| Quote: | AJ: A final point. Your thoughts on vinyl.
JJ: What about them?
AJ: Do you listen to vinyl?
JJ: I prefer SACD myself (wicked grin). But a lot of my friends like the vinyl sound. See, it’s not about which medium is better or worse. Both are good at what they do. It’s basically about what your listening tastes are. Vinyl is for people who prefer a softer, more organic sound. Is it a more accurate sound? No, nor is CD. As we’ve just discussed, the whole audio chain loses information so what you’re hearing at home is in no way going to be the same as that recorded or performed live. It can come close, but never the same.
AJ: Then why do I hear so many people claiming CDs are metallic, they can never sound natural et all?
JJ: See, that was true in the early days, up to a point, when the CD manufacturing, recording, and playback technology was in its infancy. It is in no way true today. CD (and now SACD and newer formats) have all the fidelity that vinyls do. It’s a matter of listener preference which medium they finally choose. I have been a fan of SACDs for a while but that’s because I prefer their sound signature and convenience. I also like listening to vinyl, whenever I visit my friends who have records.
JJ gets up and goes to the drawing board. Starts drawing the frequency spectrum of some well-known albums on CD. Most graphs are heavily biased on the lower and higher frequency ends and droop down in the middle, some sharply, some less so.
JJ: Here’s another trick which recording companies play to feed into this vinyl vs CD vs SACD perception. Many labels artificially compress and equalize the sound levels on CD under the mistaken notion that “consumer” listeners are attracted by loud sound and loud means better. This is also enforced by some artists who want their albums to sell. So the CD material is already compromised during the recording itself. See these spectrums? I measured them myself and this is how they look. How is it ever going to sound natural?
AJ: So why doesn’t the same thing occur on vinyl?
JJ: Because the medium physically does not allow equalization and compression beyond a point. If the recording engineer tried to do what he does with CD, the recording stylus would jump off the LP or cut grooves a mile deep (JJ likes to emphasize his point ) … you don’t have the headroom to mess around with LP like that. So LP ends up sounding natural since in most cases, the recording process itself is true to the original master.
AJ: That makes a lot of sense.
JJ: Another trick that really burns me up. I bought this SACD, see, with both a CD layer and the high-fidelity version. The label was trying to show how much better SACD is. Which is fine, if they had the same recording quality on both layers. Which they did not! The CD layer (again I measured it myself) was horribly compressed compared to the SACD layer. Of course it was going to sound worse! That’s not a fair test. And not what I expect from a label of that repute. My point is, pay attention to the recording before blaming the medium or the playback system. Sometimes, it’s the biggest culprit of bad sound. |
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | I just ran across this today.
http://www.hifivision.com/articles-guides/6788-reflections-talk-father-perceptual-audio-coding.html
| Quote: | AJ: A final point. Your thoughts on vinyl.
JJ: What about them?
AJ: Do you listen to vinyl?
JJ: I prefer SACD myself (wicked grin). But a lot of my friends like the vinyl sound. See, it’s not about which medium is better or worse. Both are good at what they do. It’s basically about what your listening tastes are. Vinyl is for people who prefer a softer, more organic sound. Is it a more accurate sound? No, nor is CD. As we’ve just discussed, the whole audio chain loses information so what you’re hearing at home is in no way going to be the same as that recorded or performed live. It can come close, but never the same.
AJ: Then why do I hear so many people claiming CDs are metallic, they can never sound natural et all?
JJ: See, that was true in the early days, up to a point, when the CD manufacturing, recording, and playback technology was in its infancy. It is in no way true today. CD (and now SACD and newer formats) have all the fidelity that vinyls do. It’s a matter of listener preference which medium they finally choose. I have been a fan of SACDs for a while but that’s because I prefer their sound signature and convenience. I also like listening to vinyl, whenever I visit my friends who have records.
JJ gets up and goes to the drawing board. Starts drawing the frequency spectrum of some well-known albums on CD. Most graphs are heavily biased on the lower and higher frequency ends and droop down in the middle, some sharply, some less so.
JJ: Here’s another trick which recording companies play to feed into this vinyl vs CD vs SACD perception. Many labels artificially compress and equalize the sound levels on CD under the mistaken notion that “consumer” listeners are attracted by loud sound and loud means better. This is also enforced by some artists who want their albums to sell. So the CD material is already compromised during the recording itself. See these spectrums? I measured them myself and this is how they look. How is it ever going to sound natural?
AJ: So why doesn’t the same thing occur on vinyl?
JJ: Because the medium physically does not allow equalization and compression beyond a point. If the recording engineer tried to do what he does with CD, the recording stylus would jump off the LP or cut grooves a mile deep (JJ likes to emphasize his point ) … you don’t have the headroom to mess around with LP like that. So LP ends up sounding natural since in most cases, the recording process itself is true to the original master.
AJ: That makes a lot of sense.
JJ: Another trick that really burns me up. I bought this SACD, see, with both a CD layer and the high-fidelity version. The label was trying to show how much better SACD is. Which is fine, if they had the same recording quality on both layers. Which they did not! The CD layer (again I measured it myself) was horribly compressed compared to the SACD layer. Of course it was going to sound worse! That’s not a fair test. And not what I expect from a label of that repute. My point is, pay attention to the recording before blaming the medium or the playback system. Sometimes, it’s the biggest culprit of bad sound. |
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I agree, both SACD and DVD-A are simply awesome to say the least. Especially the multichannel recordings. It would be nice if there was some kind of comeback (maybe BD-A?).
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yep! I was gonna pick that up, but I already have the original quad mix on DVD-A 
Ken brought the SACD version over to listen to and while it sounded great, it wasn't that different from the original quad to justify the purchase.
I truly do hope that this kind of medium makes a comeback. Compressed audio is for the birds..........
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I truly do hope that this kind of medium makes a comeback |
It will probably hang around for a while, but in very small quantities unfortunately. If there is any future at all in high resolution audio, it will probably be from streaming services such as HDNET. While I love to have those little silver discs, both audio and video, I'm afraid they are doomed.
Bob
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, Bob. To be honest, I'm not sure it's all bad, either.
As much as I like "collecting" stuff, I've also realized that I listen to music much more frequently when its conveniently accessible. I finally started moving my collection into digital format (Apple Lossless Codec), and I'm loving it. Now I can sit in my theater, office, living room, or bedroom, and play my whole collection - by browsing in iRule on my iPad - and sending the audio to an Airport Express, AppleTV, or another AirPlay device. I could even throw a high-end DAC into the mix if I wanted to.
So, I have my whole collection at my fingertips anywhere in the house, in its original high-quality digital format, all without going to dig through shelves of little silver discs. It's really the music I love, not the discs themselves. So, like I said, this "movement" isn't all bad.
SC
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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SC, unfortunately, I don't have a choice! I would LOVE to convert all my discs to some server format and be able to select and control from some application on my iPad, provided there was no information loss and also download files such as HDTracks.
Problem is my brain isn't as big as yours, so I would need to use a hardware solution such as an Olive, or others. They are not cheap. I would even like to transfer my extensive collection of 15 Ips 1/2 track master tapes to this format as long as I could do the A/D at 24/192K.
I envy the job you did with your I rule. About a year ago I spent about ten hours screwing with it until I finally gave up in frustration. Fortunately, I tried Roomieremote, and while it it not nearly as nice, I was able to easily do it. It is made specifically for dumbasses like me. Now you know why I have to use my little discs, R2R tapes and vinyl.
When someone makes a single box hardware solution that can do what I want for a reasonable amount for dumbasses, I'll be all over it! It would also be nice if it could also accept BD's with no loss in either video or audio!
Bob
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Bob,
Maybe you should head up to Cedia and have Crabb, Itai and the rest of the Irule crowd walk you through it.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Spanky,
They would probably get frustrated trying to teach me!
Bob
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Digging up an old discussion...
| ecrabb wrote: | | As much as I like "collecting" stuff, I've also realized that I listen to music much more frequently when its conveniently accessible. I finally started moving my collection into digital format (Apple Lossless Codec), and I'm loving it. |
I realize you're pretty tightly tied into the Apple ecosystem, so that works well for you, but is Apple Lossless format as widely usable as something less proprietary, like FLAC for example?
| Quote: | | Now I can sit in my theater, office, living room, or bedroom, and play my whole collection - by browsing in iRule on my iPad - and sending the audio to an Airport Express, AppleTV, or another AirPlay device. I could even throw a high-end DAC into the mix if I wanted to. |
I've never used any of those devices. How are the DACs on them?
| Quote: | | So, I have my whole collection at my fingertips anywhere in the house, in its original high-quality digital format, all without going to dig through shelves of little silver discs. It's really the music I love, not the discs themselves. So, like I said, this "movement" isn't all bad. |
One thing that it seems to me that you're missing though is that you do have those little silver discs to source from. I.e., as a compact delivery and storage medium, even if you're not using them for day-to-day playback.
What happens when they're gone? Where will your lossless audio come from then?
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- Tim
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I prefer Vinyl, but there is lots of lots of bad vinyl and bad vinyl players and other vinyl gear.
Todays vinyl printing is for sure not worth the time and money. So like most in here can relate to, vinyl setup is a easy to compare with CRT projector setup.. There is a lot of stuff that can go wrong. CD is more a plug and play device.
In general after 1990 better SQ than Vinyl for normal consumers with low end TT like technics SL1200-1210 and down. 
So for me new music.. 1990- forward will play on my cd player, and music from 1980 and backwards will play on my TT.
But only selected vinyl records.. like 1 out of 1000 will pass. and there is no CD player that will be able to do that kind of reproduction..
Most Cd sounds to me like digital projection looks to me.. full of squares, and not able to perform the really tough high frequency.
So i think its 2 very different formats, but they fits different periods.
And i can find my LP and get it playing faster than anyone messing around the Iphone waiting to get the list up, or needing to make a firmware update.
Actually i think the engineer of my TT were more skilled than todays engineering.. I never needed to plug it in for any new firmware. He finished it before it came out of the factory, and its still spinning no matter how closed the factory is.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | | I realize you're pretty tightly tied into the Apple ecosystem, so that works well for you, but is Apple Lossless format as widely usable as something less proprietary, like FLAC for example? |
Apple Lossless was proprietary, but hasn't been for over a year. You may consider Apple Lossless less usable, but for me, it's FLAC that's less usable because almost none of the equipment I have works with it. Apple Lossless makes the most sense for me now, but I can always convert my collection to something else at some point in the future if I ever need to. For now though, Apple Lossless actually is the most convenient, portable, usable format for me.
| VideoGrabber wrote: | | Quote: | | Now I can sit in my theater, office, living room, or bedroom, and play my whole collection - by browsing in iRule on my iPad - and sending the audio to an Airport Express, AppleTV, or another AirPlay device. I could even throw a high-end DAC into the mix if I wanted to. |
I've never used any of those devices. How are the DACs on them? |
Like everything else - you get what you pay for. It's fine for mid-fi listening. I don't use the DACs in either, though. The AppleTV is HDMI, and the AirportExpress is SPDIF, so I use the DACs in my AVR or prepro. A lot of guys use the AppleTV with an outboard DAC for high fidelity.
| VideoGrabber wrote: | | Quote: | | So, I have my whole collection at my fingertips anywhere in the house, in its original high-quality digital format, all without going to dig through shelves of little silver discs. It's really the music I love, not the discs themselves. So, like I said, this "movement" isn't all bad. |
One thing that it seems to me that you're missing though is that you do have those little silver discs to source from. I.e., as a compact delivery and storage medium, even if you're not using them for day-to-day playback.
What happens when they're gone? Where will your lossless audio come from then? |
[/quote]
I'm not missing that at all, Tim. I advocate buying and continuing to buy and keep the media as an archival format, but then ripping and converting to whatever format is most convenient with the hardware and software you most want to use.
SC
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, SC. Glad to hear that Apple Lossless is both portable and open now. I was unaware of that (obviously).
re:
> I'm not missing that at all, Tim. I advocate buying and continuing to buy and keep the media as an archival format...
I guess I was confused by the previous exchange then. It sounded to me like you were agreeing that they were doomed, and that if they disappeared, that would be OK...
> Boilermaker: "While I love to have those little silver discs, both audio and video, I'm afraid they are doomed."
> ecrabb: "I agree, Bob. To be honest, I'm not sure it's all bad, either."
hence my questions. From my perspective, disappearance of the discs would eliminate the only source of the highest quality material. Everything else is compromised.
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- Tim
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | You know I feel like I should be moderating this thread or something... |
AR, after all the avatars you've used over the years, I see you finally broke down and put up a self-portrait! Good for you.
Somehow I always pictured you as older than that. (ducking)
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- Tim
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | | I guess I was confused by the previous exchange then. It sounded to me like you were agreeing that they were doomed, and that if they disappeared, that would be OK... |
You're right... Looking back at the thread, I did say that. I'm not as concerned with buying some specific physical media, as I am getting a high-quality file of some kind. Read on...
| VideoGrabber wrote: | | hence my questions. From my perspective, disappearance of the discs would eliminate the only source of the highest quality material. Everything else is compromised. |
I don't see how disappearance of that particular physical format eliminates the highest quality material.
What if, for $12, you could choose between two options: 1) Red book audio CD, or 2) Digital download consisting of a set of files, perhaps lossless, and compressed mp3?
Last fall, I spent $20 to buy the Trent Reznor/Atticus Ross Social Network soundtrack, and I was happy to buy it. For $5, you could choose between MP3, AAC, Apple Lossless, or FLAC for immediate download. For $8, you could get the physical CD plus one of the instant downloads. For $20, I bought a Blu-ray with high-res 2-ch, 5.1 surround, plus the Apple Lossless files so I could burn my own CD. I think this is probably the future of purchasing music. After CDs are long-gone, there will be high-quality digital downloads.
http://www.nullco.com/TSN
That's what I'm OK with.
I know there's a school of thought that streaming video is eventually going to eliminate Blu-ray, and downloads will eliminate CD, but all this stuff is digital... As long as there are decent number of people willing to pay for better quality, the content owners will have a profit opportunity selling to them.
So, I'm not all doom & gloom that quality is going away. If anything, as bandwidth increases, hopefully, we'll be buying even higher quality music than we can get our hands on with CD.
SC
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | After CDs are long-gone, there will be high-quality digital downloads. |
We hope. That's not a given.
| Quote: | | As long as there are decent number of people willing to pay for better quality, the content owners will have a profit opportunity selling to them. |
True. That's an IF, especially since so many seem to be content with MP3. But I agree the overhead of offering higher-quality a downloads is not onerous, assuming they're willing to part with it, on something other than a pay-per-play basis.
| Quote: | | If anything, as bandwidth increases, hopefully, we'll be buying even higher quality music than we can get our hands on with CD. |
Yes, hopefully. I'd like to see the new options appear on a widespread basis, before I'm OK with the existing and established ones disappearing.
_________________
- Tim
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I get what you're saying, Tim... But, has anybody seen an artist or album NOT released on Red book?
Don't new cars still all come with CD players?
SC
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