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TheVerge
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 928
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Hmm... I see relatively late-model TVs on craigslist all the time with dead bulbs, though. The lamp wattage ratings aren't different, I don't think, like 120-150w vs 250w for a lot of front projectors. Perhaps some models of RPTV use a higher-wattage bulb, but drive them at a lower power rating. I wonder how many die at 3000 hours for every one that lasts 12,000.
SC |
Last time i lurked in the AVS thread on my tv there were several people getting 6 adn 7,000 out of their bulbs. It isn't very bright, and it's only a 42 inch screen, so i'm assuming it isn't pushing the bulb very hard at all.
Seems like a 92 inch mitsu would be working as hard as a front projector.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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This is how far I took it this past weekend...
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zaphod
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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holy three-eyed monsters batman!
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walk gently. leave a good impression.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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And to think 8 years ago I was hauling a load like that up every month...
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:27 am Post subject: |
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Nice catch!!!! 
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:20 am Post subject: |
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My thoughts on the OP: We take this as far as people want to. How far do you take something you like?
Spending money on old cars when we know we could get something a lot more efficient? (But we enjoy that.)
Buying an older house to "fix it up" even if the cost is more than what it is really worth? (But we enjoy that.)
etc, etc, etc...........
If something is appealing to you, why should you give a sh*t what someone else thinks.
I'll stick with crt for now.
wallace
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Life Is Good, But BBQ Is Better! BBQ Competition Team
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tanwn
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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A perfectly and properly calibrated 9" CRT with color corrected and filtered lenses on a 100" and below screen size will beat a digital in almost all the important areas like, color, true resolution, contrast, black, intra scene (yes i own a dlp too), etc. Only areas i can think of that a digital does better is brightness , ease of setup, parts replacement and ability to go bigger. I own a DLP,a sony G70 and a Barco Cinemax 9" inch crt and this is the best i have ever seen. The time has not come or is not even near for a digital to replace a CRT yet.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| tanwn wrote: | | Only areas i can think of that a digital does better is brightness , ease of setup, parts replacement and ability to go bigger. |
You forgot digital's superior ANSI (in-scene) contrast, much smaller size, and (usually) MUCH quieter sound for lower noise floor in the room - with or without a hush box. In fact, I could turn it around and say digital is better in every regard, save for on/off contrast, motion resolution, and film-like image.
| tanwn wrote: | | The time has not come or is not even near for a digital to replace a CRT yet. |
That's a big statement - too big. I'd completely agree if you had said, "For me, the time has not come or is not even near for a digital to replace a CRT," I'd agree with you. But, it completely depends on what you have, your room, and your goals.
If you want any bigger than a 120" screen - especially scope - digital is excellent. If you want a really top-notch finished room with an excellent noise floor, digital again is excellent. If you have nothing, and you're just starting out, the average enthusiast would likely get an overall superior picture spending say $3000 on a digital rather than a 9" CRT. That's just the reality.
I'm a long-time CRT fan, but digital has gotten SO much better and cheaper in the last few years, you simply can't make these sweeping generalizations about CRT or digital anymore.
SC
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: |
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You can make any sweeping generalizations you like really, cause it all comes down to opinion ubove ANYTHING else.
| ecrabb wrote: | In fact, I could turn it around and say digital is better in every regard, save for on/off contrast, motion resolution, and film-like image.
SC |
Yep, and im glad you did, cause for me, those are the 3 MOST important factors in video projection.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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It is obvious that digital projector technology has advanced to where it is now close to what our analog projectors provide us it terms of overall picture quality. Some would say it has equaled or even surpassed, and they are welcomed to their opinion.
But, if we turn this discussion into which technology has more potential, I think the outcome would be far more apparent. Research and development of analog projection stopped almost two decades ago - About the same time HDTV was born. Since the beginning of digital display technology, vast sums of time and money have been spent on improving it.
I feel strongly that if 1/10 of that effort went into improving crt projectors, the end result wouldn't even be close. I don't have a crystal ball, but I would imagine that today's modernized crt projector would have at least the following:
1 - Tubes shaped for a display aspect ratio of 1.78 or 2.40. Our old crts were designed for about 1.2 which means we are wasting 1/2 of the tube. They would be in different sizes with the largest comparable to the big 12" Barco (forgot the model number).
2 - Tube magnetics would be improved to better control the beam spot size.
3 - Video circuitry would have a 500 Mhz bandwidth at a minimum.
4 - Methodology would be in place to "automatically" converge/focus/etc./etc. for convenience.
I understand that there would be a hefty price for this, but what I am talking about is picture quality, and in my opinion - It wouldn't even be close.
I am fortunate/stupid/crazy enough that I have a blended set of two 8" LC crts, so it gives me a little peak into what happens when you can effectively increase the usable area of the tube by almost 2:1, and effectively almost double the bandwidth. The difference is not subtle!
Problem is, the chance of someone with the resources to modernize our crt's is pretty slim, so it makes a hell of a fun hobby!
Bob
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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That's the crying shame; if CRT were modernized in the manner Boilermaker suggested it could truly reach it's full potential, especially for larger screen sizes. Sadly, that will not happen...
From purely a performance stand point digital's benefits are most apparent on larger screen sizes. I think many objective observers will tell you that a properly set up blend will offer advantages to digital but the time, cost and difficulty of such set ups limit their applicability to the masses.
From my POV, given the circumstances the best thing would be a video processor that combines the benefits of a Lumagen (and it's CMS) with the dual channel capability of a TVOne that is easy to use all in one box for $2K or less. I'm hoping that is not too much to ask..
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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TheVerge
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 928
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | tanwn wrote: | | Only areas i can think of that a digital does better is brightness , ease of setup, parts replacement and ability to go bigger. |
You forgot digital's superior ANSI (in-scene) contrast, much smaller size, and (usually) MUCH quieter sound for lower noise floor in the room - with or without a hush box. In fact, I could turn it around and say digital is better in every regard, save for on/off contrast, motion resolution, and film-like image.
| tanwn wrote: | | The time has not come or is not even near for a digital to replace a CRT yet. |
That's a big statement - too big. I'd completely agree if you had said, "For me, the time has not come or is not even near for a digital to replace a CRT," I'd agree with you. But, it completely depends on what you have, your room, and your goals.
If you want any bigger than a 120" screen - especially scope - digital is excellent. If you want a really top-notch finished room with an excellent noise floor, digital again is excellent. If you have nothing, and you're just starting out, the average enthusiast would likely get an overall superior picture spending say $3000 on a digital rather than a 9" CRT. That's just the reality.
I'm a long-time CRT fan, but digital has gotten SO much better and cheaper in the last few years, you simply can't make these sweeping generalizations about CRT or digital anymore.
SC |
I think you'd have to be insane not to prefer the CRT image. But i have a small room, my wife can't stand the flicker(or rainbows for dlp), and they are definitely quieter by a factor of 10. It just makes sense for some people. If i lived in CA i would head curts way and pick up a CRT just to have one, but i just can't justify the shipping cost right now. You can get a heck of a digital for 700 bucks these days.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheVerge wrote: | | I think you'd have to be insane not to prefer the CRT image. But i have a small room, my wife can't stand the flicker(or rainbows for dlp), and they are definitely quieter by a factor of 10. It just makes sense for some people. If i lived in CA i would head curts way and pick up a CRT just to have one, but i just can't justify the shipping cost right now. You can get a heck of a digital for 700 bucks these days. |
Why? The CRT image isn't perfect, either.
I really do prefer the CRT image... Mostly... Yes, I love the absolute blacks, the on/off contrast, and the film-like picture. But, there is plenty I don't like about CRT - some of it even the actual picture. Streaking, for instance. Lack of perfect geometry - I just can't quite dial the little tiny bit of gull-wing out of my G70. Ringing on the left side of the screen. Yeah, 1080p... That's what the source is - I'm not scaling it down to accommodate my projector's shortcomings. Can't shift the raster enough to get rid of it. Yeah, I could buy and hang a modded 9" machine and get rid of most of those things, but it won't fix the other things I don't like about CRT...
The size... I have an 8-foot ceiling, my G70 is RIGHT against the bottom of the joists, and even short people can barely walk under the projector. When I stand on the riser, I stare right at the broad side of my G70. It's huge - and the G70 is sleeker than some. Beyond that, just the visual impact on the room. It's huge. Massive. It dominates the room.
The noise... The projector destroys the noise floor in my room. It's terrible, and I have it in a hush box. See, I don't care just about video quality. I like to watch movies, and great sound is just as much part of the experience as video, and the CRT wrecks a lot of quiet scenes and dynamic range - even with my hush box.
Oh, and I forgot about brightness compression... That awesome on/off contrast and 12fL that eek out of your CRT? That's with a 20% window. Like Dave always used to say - space scenes look amazing, and movies like Ice Age look like crap because the CRT is putting out maybe 6 fL in high-APL scenes.
I don't see the point in discussing where CRT could be now if it had been developed technologically for the last twenty years. I'm sure steam locomotives would be pretty awesome if they had modern fuel, modern computer controls to optimize the combustion process, optimize heat, etc. I agree that CRT would be amazing now, but so what?
I'll probably always love CRT, but I love movies more. It's the movies that are the reason I have a theater - not CRT projectors. I probably don't have a year left with a CRT projector.
Prices on used JVC RS-2's have fallen to the point that I can sell my G70 for a few hundred bucks, and replace it with a JVC. I'll sacrifice only on/off and a little motion resolution (which is mostly irrelevant with 24fps movies), but I'll get a smaller, quieter projector in exchange and improve the look and sound of my room. I'll have superior ANSI contrast (which is just as important as on/off), no brightness compression, perfect geometry, and excellent sharpness.
CRT is great, but has its issues. Digital is great, but has its issues.
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
Prices on used JVC RS-2's have fallen to the point that I can sell my G70 for a few hundred bucks, and replace it with a JVC. I'll sacrifice only on/off and a little motion resolution (which is mostly irrelevant with 24fps movies), but I'll get a smaller, quieter projector in exchange and improve the look and sound of my room. I'll have superior ANSI contrast (which is just as important as on/off), no brightness compression, perfect geometry, and excellent sharpness.
SC |
But what will you do when it croaks?
And how many bulbs are you willing to put in it?
Do you already have a video processor?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | But what will you do when it croaks? |
The same thing I'd do with my G70... Repair or replace it. Same issues either way. Yeah, I can send Curt a board for my G70 and get it fixed... And probably spend as much as my G70 is worth in the process. I haven't seen many busted JVC's on flea bay... Based on that, what I've heard and read, and how many hours I'd put on it, I'd say the likelihood is very high that I wouldn't see a failure while I owned the projector, anyway.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | And how many bulbs are you willing to put in it? |
Not an issue, IMHO. It's taken me nearly three years to rack up 2500 hours on my G70. I can afford a $300 bulb every 18 months - if I keep the new machine that long.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Do you already have a video processor? |
No, but my G70 isn't dialed in perfectly, either. I can live with the primaries on the RS2/FPJ1. I've spent enough time watching that machine at a friend's house, I could easily live happily with it. Especially since I'd be able to hear the quiet scenes again. That would be very nice.
SC
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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It is funny you mention noise, Steve. That was one of the first things my best friend said when he fired up the RS45. He kept saying that he had to check to see if it was still on even though there was a image coming out of it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | But what will you do when it croaks? |
The same thing I'd do with my G70... Repair or replace it. Repair is not really an option in most cases for digital so replace would have to be the option.
Same issues either way. No, it's not. Not even close. A CRT can ALWAYS be repaired. A digital almost always not.
Yeah, I can send Curt a board for my G70 and get it fixed... And probably spend as much as my G70 is worth in the process.
Your talking value to sell. I'm talking value to use. Hard to put a value on something that can be repaired.
I haven't seen many busted JVC's on flea bay... That doesn't really mean much of anything.
Based on that, what I've heard and read, and how many hours I'd put on it, I'd say the likelihood is very high that I wouldn't see a failure while I owned the projector, anyway. Wow, that's a big statement.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | And how many bulbs are you willing to put in it? |
Not an issue, IMHO. It's taken me nearly three years to rack up 2500 hours on my G70. I can afford a $300 bulb every 18 months - if I keep the new machine that long.
This is hoping none explode before end of life or dont take the ballast out with it.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Do you already have a video processor? |
No, but my G70 isn't dialed in perfectly, either. I can live with the primaries on the RS2/FPJ1. I've spent enough time watching that machine at a friend's house, I could easily live happily with it. Especially since I'd be able to hear the quiet scenes again. That would be very nice.
SC |
I'm not trying to bust your balls Steve. It's just that when these discussions arise the failure factor is usually not discussed. Or just blown off with lame reasons.
A CRT can last forever based on your low hour usage. But bulbs and ballasts and such will not. That's just the facts.
I still agree that there are situations where a digital would be the best choice buts these digital vs CRT things are just nuts...
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Mac, repairability is a big deal to you. You're very focused on reliability and repairability because you fix busted stuff. I get it. But, reliability and repairability of digitals is very overblown in this forum. I know dozens of people with multiple digital projectors, none of which have had a failure. Dozens of digitals, and not a single dead bulb or dead ballast. OK, I take that back... I know of one sh*tty POS InFocus portable DLP projector from work that died. No surprise though, because it was tiny, ran super-hot, and was very cheap/entry-evel when it was purchased back in probably 2003 or 2004.
Will digitals last as long as a CRT? No, probably not a single one. Do I care? No. I have other concerns that are just as - if not more - important to me.
I have my priorities and you have yours. We all consider lots of different aspects of owning certain things, whether it's a projector, a car, or anything else, we weigh our options, consider the pros and cons based on what's important to us, and we make a decision.
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Mac, repairability is a big deal to you. You're very focused on reliability and repairability because you fix busted stuff. I get it. But, reliability and repairability of digitals is very overblown in this forum.
I think myself, Curt and maybe a few others are the ones constantly putting down digital reliability and repair ability. Why, you ask? Because we are the ones constantly repairing and having conversations with others repairing these POS's. We have the facts to support our rants. Plus like I already said, CRT's can be repaired, digitals usually not.
I know dozens of people with multiple digital projectors, none of which have had a failure. Dozens of digitals, and not a single dead bulb or dead ballast. OK, I take that back... I know of one sh*tty POS InFocus portable DLP projector from work that died. No surprise though, because it was tiny, ran super-hot, and was very cheap/entry-evel when it was purchased back in probably 2003 or 2004.
Will digitals last as long as a CRT? No, probably not a single one. Do I care? No. I have other concerns that are just as - if not more - important to me.
I have my priorities and you have yours. We all consider lots of different aspects of owning certain things, whether it's a projector, a car, or anything else, we weigh our options, consider the pros and cons based on what's important to us, and we make a decision.
Right, so if the CRT vs digital comparisons stop, so will my rants. I only rant when they are trying to be compared. Discuss digitals by them selves and you wont hear a peep out of me.......well until someone asks for help trying to repair one, LOL.
SC |
So if your someone who can afford to be replacing bulbs every couple thousand hous(if they last that long) and/or afford to replace that few thousand dollar projector every couple years(if it lasts that long) then by all means buy a digital.
But if you can only afford a couple thousand or less and want it to last for years and years with "MAYBE" a repair every decade or two then go with CRT.
But lets stop comparing the 2. You either like the digital pic or you dont.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I think myself, Curt and maybe a few others are the ones constantly putting down digital reliability and repair ability. Why, you ask? Because we are the ones constantly repairing and having conversations with others repairing these POS's. We have the facts to support our rants. Plus like I already said, CRT's can be repaired, digitals usually not. |
Why rant, though? They do a certain job. Most do it well, and last for as long as most people want to keep them. Some don't, obviously. Do you have exactly failure rates on each manufacturer and model? No. That's a fact. Hell, most of the manufacturer don't even know that. S
| macgyver655 wrote: | Right, so if the CRT vs digital comparisons stop, so will my rants. I only rant when they are trying to be compared. Discuss digitals by them selves and you wont hear a peep out of me.......well until someone asks for help trying to repair one, LOL.
So if your someone who can afford to be replacing bulbs every couple thousand hous(if they last that long) and/or afford to replace that few thousand dollar projector every couple years(if it lasts that long) then by all means buy a digital.
But if you can only afford a couple thousand or less and want it to last for years and years with "MAYBE" a repair every decade or two then go with CRT.
But lets stop comparing the 2. You either like the digital pic or you dont. |
Why stop comparing the two? Why do you have to rant about it? They're both ways to watch a movie. They're both valid choices. They each have their pros and cons. Depending on the priorities of the individual, one or the other may make the most sense. There's no more reason for CRT guys to rant against digital than there is digital guys to rant against CRT.
Frankly, I don't understand why anybody cares what anybody else wants. Your priorities and concerns are very likely not the same as mine. I don't tell anybody what kind of car, refrigerator they should have, why should you TELL anybody what kind of projector they should buy. We should all get over ourselves.
SC
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