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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Mac,
I know who builds the engine for the VDC pj. To my knowledge, there are only two out there - Delta and Chilin. I thought VDC probably modified the engine and pj to with stand the rigors of govt use.
As for the commercial pjs, I have looked in one or two and thought they looked well built, but what do I know. I just assumed that the $25k to $200k cost would get you better quality than a $2k pj.
I wasn't aware that Benq made a commercial pj.
Bob,
Those are good opinions for last year. I have read on AVS and elsewhere that 4k will be coming. 4k was starting at Cedia this year and will be even bigger next year. Flat panel and pj manufacturers are going to want more than upconverted material to show on these. Sony has a 4k pj for $20k and will probably be pushing to have something out in the not to distant future. HDMI already supports 4k. BR discs should be able to hold the data with 10 layers. While consumers may not want it, the manufacturers will try to sell it. Like I said, a couple of years.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky - I hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | I still cannot understand how someone who has pretty much no repair experience can argue build quality with an experienced tech who is involved in repair on a daily basis. It makes no sense at all...... |
You understand I'm not arguing that, right? No informed person would argue that.
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But you are arguing that when you comment with Curt and I are blowing this stuff out of proportion. |
I think you're having a bit of logic fail, Mac. When I assert that you and Curt are blowing the build quality thing out of proportion when you state (practically as fact) that digital projectors have a 2-3 year lifespan, in no way am I arguing "build quality". I READILY ADMIT that the build quality is for all intents and purposes, unmitigated plastic JUNK compared to the CRT projectors most of us have. HOWEVER, that in no way dictates that it only has a 2-year lifespan... Yes, there are plenty of examples of machines that run hot because they're too small, organic LCD panels and polarizing filters and dichroic filters fading, but that is by no means representative of ALL digital projectors.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | If I could I would give you my password to some of the private tech sites I'm on and you could read the comments. I'm not speaking just my own words when I comment on digital build quality and longevity. And many of these tech are authorized repair centers and warranty for all different manufacturers, including the pro division. |
I understand... Those in the repair sector are acutely aware of the failures BECAUSE ALL THEY SEE ARE BUSTED sh*t! You DO NOT see all the working machines... Because they're working!
Again, I'm not arguing the stellar industrial engineering that went into commercial CRT projectors... That's why many of them cost $25,000, $30,000, and in the case of the later machines like the 909's and 9500LC Ultras in the early 90's, north of $35k-40k a pop, depending on options and pricing. The FAR smaller economy-of-scale and freight also jacked the price up.
But, who cares? I have exactly zero interest in running my projector for 10 years and 20,000 hours. Zilch. I understand some may be interested in doing that, and if so, more power to that person...
I'll ask again... You and Curt are constantly throwing this 2-3 years number out... At what number of hours per day? Under what conditions? What percentage fail in that time frame? How does a Benq compare to a JVC RS-series or a Panasonic or an Epson? I highly doubt they're all identical. But, give me some numbers... Because, until you can state some hard data - some evidence - you're not giving us anything more than the anecdotal evidence I'm giving about seeing dozens of digitals and only one failure. Hell, the entry-level Olevia 37" LCD I bought my wife to tidy up the living room is going strong FIVE years after I bought it... It's on HOURS per day, every day. How is that even possible?
For the tenth time, I understand and even agree with you that electronics are not at all built to the same quality level they were 30, 20, or perhaps even 10 years ago. All I'm saying is it is NOT as bad as you're making it out to be. If it were, there would be LCD TV's on every curb and a plethora of busted projectors on the used market. Where are all these dead projectors? I watch craigslist in my town all the time, and I can't say I see any more busted sh*t on there than I ever have. Where is all this stuff going? (Yes, I realize some of it just gets binned).
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | I still cannot understand how someone who has pretty much no repair experience can argue build quality with an experienced tech who is involved in repair on a daily basis. It makes no sense at all...... |
You understand I'm not arguing that, right? No informed person would argue that.
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But you are arguing that when you comment with Curt and I are blowing this stuff out of proportion. |
I think you're having a bit of logic fail, Mac. When I assert that you and Curt are blowing the build quality thing out of proportion when you state (practically as fact) that digital projectors have a 2-3 year lifespan, in no way am I arguing "build quality". I READILY ADMIT that the build quality is for all intents and purposes, unmitigated plastic JUNK compared to the CRT projectors most of us have. HOWEVER, that in no way dictates that it only has a 2-year lifespan... Yes, there are plenty of examples of machines that run hot because they're too small, organic LCD panels and polarizing filters and dichroic filters fading, but that is by no means representative of ALL digital projectors.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | If I could I would give you my password to some of the private tech sites I'm on and you could read the comments. I'm not speaking just my own words when I comment on digital build quality and longevity. And many of these tech are authorized repair centers and warranty for all different manufacturers, including the pro division. |
I understand... Those in the repair sector are acutely aware of the failures BECAUSE ALL THEY SEE ARE BUSTED sh*t! You DO NOT see all the working machines... Because they're working!
Again, I'm not arguing the stellar industrial engineering that went into commercial CRT projectors... That's why many of them cost $25,000, $30,000, and in the case of the later machines like the 909's and 9500LC Ultras in the early 90's, north of $35k-40k a pop, depending on options and pricing. The FAR smaller economy-of-scale and freight also jacked the price up.
But, who cares? I have exactly zero interest in running my projector for 10 years and 20,000 hours. Zilch. I understand some may be interested in doing that, and if so, more power to that person...
I'll ask again... You and Curt are constantly throwing this 2-3 years number out... At what number of hours per day? Under what conditions? What percentage fail in that time frame? How does a Benq compare to a JVC RS-series or a Panasonic or an Epson? I highly doubt they're all identical. But, give me some numbers... Because, until you can state some hard data - some evidence - you're not giving us anything more than the anecdotal evidence I'm giving about seeing dozens of digitals and only one failure. Hell, the entry-level Olevia 37" LCD I bought my wife to tidy up the living room is going strong FIVE years after I bought it... It's on HOURS per day, every day. How is that even possible?
For the tenth time, I understand and even agree with you that electronics are not at all built to the same quality level they were 30, 20, or perhaps even 10 years ago. All I'm saying is it is NOT as bad as you're making it out to be. If it were, there would be LCD TV's on every curb and a plethora of busted projectors on the used market. Where are all these dead projectors? I watch craigslist in my town all the time, and I can't say I see any more busted sh*t on there than I ever have. Where is all this stuff going? (Yes, I realize some of it just gets binned).
SC |
You seem to be the only one that doesn't get it....
Here's just 1 after a 10 second search... http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-PROJECTORS-NEC-HP-DELL-IN-FOCUS-SHARP-AND-MORE-29PCS-AS-IS-PARTS-/320822999333?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab28a7925
And thats just a projector search. But I'm sure you will find fault with that also.....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Hey, thanks for making my point for me, Mac!!! That sh*t you're linking to? Some of it is 4-5 years old, and that's the new stuff! The vast majority of it is 7-10 years old - or more!!!
Let's try again... You and Curt constantly spout off about all these digitals being junk, and that buyers will be lucky to get 2-3 years out of it... Well, where are all the dead projectors that are 2-3 years old? The way you guys talk about them, there should be skids full of 720p consumer projectors from reconditioners, too - not just the 10-year old SVGA surplus sh*t stacked on a skid from a school system decommissioning them.
Oh, and by the way... Before CRT fell off the map completely, I remember a lot of busted CRT projectors on the 'bay, too. Granted, they were all repairable or useful as parts donors, but a bunch of busted machines on ebay just doesn't really prove anything - especially since because of the price points, there are MASSIVELY more digital projectors in circulation than there ever were CRT projectors.
SC
Last edited by ecrabb on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 am Post subject: |
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You know I'm just bustin' your balls right, Mac?
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Here's the newest machine you posted:
Casio XJ-A140 - 2 years old, but TINY, and just $850 MSRP - laser and LED, and it's CASIO - not surprising this one is junk
Here's a bunch of the rest and their rough ages:
Epson EMP-S4 - 4-5 years old
Panasonic PT-L735U - 7-8 years old
Mitsubishi XL1XU - 7-8 years old
InFocus LP500 - 7-10 years old
Proxima DP5900/DP5950 - 10/12 years old
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | You know I'm just bustin' your balls right, Mac?
SC |
Oh yeah, I know. Same back at ya. I'm not that naive to think that all stuff will fail in a short period of time. It's been such a long time since we had a debate.
So where were we. Oh yeah. You age claim just wont work. Your assuming these items just broke today. I say they broke a long time ago and have been building up to where they just want to get rig of the crap. Your time line also doesn't allow for actual purchase date. just because a device came out on a certain date doesn't mean they were all bought on that date. Some could be 1, 2 3 or more years after that date. Put this all together and their actual age of use could of been as little as 1 year........ 
Now you wont see real current stuff yet as it's still under warranty. And even the higher dollar stuff would got in for factory repair. I know, I've been approached a few times to help locate parts no longer available for some high dollar digital projector that were only 2 or 3 years old.
So, will they all fail in 2 to 4 years..... I would hope not. But the percentages are just horrible...... It's always a gamble when you buy electronics, new or old, it's the odds that have changed drastically.......
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Here's the newest machine you posted:
Casio XJ-A140 - 2 years old, but TINY, and just $850 MSRP - laser and LED, and it's CASIO - not surprising this one is junk
Here's a bunch of the rest and their rough ages:
Epson EMP-S4 - 4-5 years old
Panasonic PT-L735U - 7-8 years old
Mitsubishi XL1XU - 7-8 years old
InFocus LP500 - 7-10 years old
Proxima DP5900/DP5950 - 10/12 years old
SC |
Your statement was "where are all the broken projectors and you never see any". So I gave you thousands. Now you want to pick at that. Wake up. There are tens of thousands of broken ones out there. Just cause you can't find them is not my fault.....LOL.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I have an idea SC. Now this pertains mostly to consumer electronics albeit the pro stuff is not that much better.
Go to your yellow pages and call some local repair shops and see what they have to say about digital stuff. Better yet, call anywhere in the world you want and ask the question. Call hundreds or them. Then get back to me, hahahahahahaha!!!!!!
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and I believe you also made the comment about the large volume of flat panel currently being sold in relationship to the broken ones seen for repair and it being a small amount or something like that.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You ready!
The reason so many new ones are selling is people are starting to realize that when their tv breaks, it cost more to fix then to buy a new one so everyone is just replacing their broken crap!!! The more tv's that are being sold shows how many 2 or 3 year old tvs are failing..... 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Your statement was "where are all the broken projectors and you never see any". So I gave you thousands. Now you want to pick at that. Wake up. There are tens of thousands of broken ones out there. Just cause you can't find them is not my fault.....LOL. |
What I've been taking issue with is your and Curt's harping on the 2-3 year lifespan as near-fact, with nothing more than anecdotal "we're techs, we see the stuff" and "ask any tech". It follows logically then that when I asked where the broken projectors are, I was referring to the 2-3 year old broken projectors, not the sh*t that was going up in classrooms and conference rooms back in 2000. If anybody is "picking", it's you... It should be obvious what I'm getting at, but instead you keep parsing precisely the words I type.
Everywhere I look, I see friends, family, and acquaintances with digital projectors or flat panels that are all lasting longer than the 2-3 years that you and Curt claim. I have no doubt that some new stuff fails in 2-3 years - or even sooner. The question is how many fail at 2-3 years? You make it sound like it's nearly all, when clearly that isn't true.
So, what's the REAL average lifespan of a newer, bigger, well-cooled projector with inorganic LCD panels, LCoS, or DLP? Clearly, it isn't 2-3 years. Is it 5? 7? 9?
I could see how if the 70th percentile were lasting to 5, then in the numbers that the new stuff is selling in, then techs would see quite a few failing at 3 years (15%) to offset those that last to 7 years (15%). Something like that. Adjust that up a few years for larger, better-built, better-cooled machines like JVC, and down for smaller, lighter, cheaper machines.
The repairability is the same no matter how good the machine was - even a JVC or similar - as the parts are typicaly more than the machine is worth, and that expense typically represents a sizable down-payment on a replacement machine.
Of course, I could say the same about my CRT. If my PA board dies, and I send it to Curt, I got without my projector for two weeks and spend $200, that's probably nearly what my machine is worth (unless I spend hours parting it out for an extra couple hundred bucks.)
So, again... I'd have to keep a single machine for at least 4-5 years for the CRT to start looking really good TCO-wise. I'm just not that thrilled with it in other regards to stick with it that long - especially given the improvements going on in digital.
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and so far, nobody has brought up one of the other really sh*tty things about CRT... Burn-in. If you do any serious gaming at all, watch out, because chances are you're going to burn a tube or three.
I couldn't believe it when, over a couple of months last year, I put in about 100 hours on one game playing online with a friend and burned an ammo counter into the corner of my pristine G70 green tube. I was always anal about turning down contrast; the only thing I hadn't done was turned on the built-in pic orbit on the G70. But, of corse that would have just made a slightly larger fuzzy version of the ammo counter instead of a sharp one. Better, but certainly not a solution.
If you're a serious gamer, you have do what some guys like Mike Eby do, and have a... CHEAP DIGITAL... sitting there just for gaming and non-critical stuff.
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Your statement was "where are all the broken projectors and you never see any". So I gave you thousands. Now you want to pick at that. Wake up. There are tens of thousands of broken ones out there. Just cause you can't find them is not my fault.....LOL. |
What I've been taking issue with is your and Curt's harping on the 2-3 year lifespan as near-fact, with nothing more than anecdotal "we're techs, we see the stuff" and "ask any tech". It follows logically then that when I asked where the broken projectors are, I was referring to the 2-3 year old broken projectors,
the point is, at what year of life did they actually fail, no?
not the sh*t that was going up in classrooms and conference rooms back in 2000. If anybody is "picking", it's you... It should be obvious what I'm getting at, but instead you keep parsing precisely the words I type.
So now you only want to discuss pro grade stuff?
Everywhere I look, I see friends, family, and acquaintances with digital projectors or flat panels that are all lasting longer than the 2-3 years that you and Curt claim. I have no doubt that some new stuff fails in 2-3 years - or even sooner. The question is how many fail at 2-3 years? You make it sound like it's nearly all, when clearly that isn't true.
Pffft, so what , your talking 10 or 20 devices????
So, what's the REAL average lifespan of a newer, bigger, well-cooled projector with inorganic LCD panels, LCoS, or DLP? Clearly, it isn't 2-3 years. Is it 5? 7? 9?
Call the repair centers and ask them. You wont see broken 10,000 dollar units on Ebay. There is barely 5yr. or older high dollar digitals out there yet.
I could see how if the 70th percentile were lasting to 5, then in the numbers that the new stuff is selling in, then techs would see quite a few failing at 3 years (15%) to offset those that last to 7 years (15%). Something like that. Adjust that up a few years for larger, better-built, better-cooled machines like JVC, and down for smaller, lighter, cheaper machines.
The repairability is the same no matter how good the machine was - even a JVC or similar - as the parts are typicaly more than the machine is worth, and that expense typically represents a sizable down-payment on a replacement machine.
Not true, no one is going to replace a thousand dollar board in a 1500 dollar machine but will almost always replace a 1500 dollar or more board in a 6000 dollar or more machine. That's just common sense.
Of course, I could say the same about my CRT. If my PA board dies, and I send it to Curt, I got without my projector for two weeks and spend $200, that's probably nearly what my machine is worth (unless I spend hours parting it out for an extra couple hundred bucks.)
But you could have your CRT fixed for that 200 bucks, your digital becomes a door stop, LOL.
So, again... I'd have to keep a single machine for at least 4-5 years for the CRT to start looking really good TCO-wise. I'm just not that thrilled with it in other regards to stick with it that long - especially given the improvements going on in digital. That TCO is still a roll of the dice with the odds being higher against it. But apparently the cash is not an issue to you, but to most on here it is.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Oh, and so far, nobody has brought up one of the other really sh*tty things about CRT... Burn-in. If you do any serious gaming at all, watch out, because chances are you're going to burn a tube or three.
I couldn't believe it when, over a couple of months last year, I put in about 100 hours on one game playing online with a friend and burned an ammo counter into the corner of my pristine G70 green tube. I was always anal about turning down contrast; the only thing I hadn't done was turned on the built-in pic orbit on the G70. But, of corse that would have just made a slightly larger fuzzy version of the ammo counter instead of a sharp one. Better, but certainly not a solution.
If you're a serious gamer, you have do what some guys like Mike Eby do, and have a... CHEAP DIGITAL... sitting there just for gaming and non-critical stuff.
SC |
I think at this point you really do need to switch to a digital. Then after a couple years you can have a good assessment of which you prefer. Then just stick with what makes you happy or proceed onto the next technology....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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And just for the record, I have never claimed a specific term for failure. I challenge you to find such a post. My claims have been consistently that they are built like crap and don't last as long as analog and cost 10x as much to repair if repairable at all.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
What I've been taking issue with is your and Curt's harping on the 2-3 year lifespan as near-fact, with nothing more than anecdotal "we're techs, we see the stuff" and "ask any tech". |
And where else would you get accurate information on this?????? the manufacturer????HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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