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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.......  |
Can't teach an old dog new tricks, either... 
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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None of my posts have been for you anyways SC. Your mind is already made up. I'm just giving due warning to anyone else who is interested. And if not..... THEN THATS MORE WORK FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink....... |
Can't teach an old dog new tricks, either...
SC |
But that old dog knows what bones taste good and which ones taste like CRAP!!!!!!!
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink....... |
Can't teach an old dog new tricks, either...
SC |
But that old dog knows what bones taste good and which ones taste like CRAP!!!!!!! |
Not necessarily... Because, more often than not, the old dog's vision, hearing, and sense of taste is shot!
SC
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A Rogers
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 133
Location: Toronto On
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm 26 I own a 16 year old XG that cost $75 and came with a working spare, I've put >1500hours on it; the picture looks groovy. If it stopped working I could sell the remote that came with it and recoup most of that 75 bucks. I've owned and/or installed a number of digital pjs they are nice too, but how much would it cost to replace the NEC with a digital without losing image quality?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | None of my posts have been for you anyways SC. Your mind is already made up. I'm just giving due warning to anyone else who is interested. And if not..... THEN THATS MORE WORK FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! |
Please note that I've said time after time after time that both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. I've also said that it's up for each person to make up their mind which attributes of each technology are desirable and undesirable and choose based on the best information they have access to. That's the rub... People make unsubstantiated claims and blow things out of proportion on both sides, and it makes the decision-making process difficult.
I like and dislike both because both have their pluses and minuses. So, no - I haven't "made up my mind" about anything. Well, I have made up mind that you can Curt go WAY overboard with your derision for newer equipment. Listening to you and Curt, the hyperbole makes it sound as if it will be a miracle if the average digital projector lasts a year without exploding into a heap of worthless plastic, and that any digital owner will be feeding bulbs in like quarters in a slot machine... Which just isn't true.
NOBODY here has claimed that digital projectors - any of them - are in any way as reliable long-term or as easily repairable as a CRT projector. The question is, how much less reliable is a digital. You simply can't (or won't) answer that. Personally, I DO NOT need a projector that will last 20 years. If I'm going to use it 3 or 4 years before I want to move on to trying something different, why would I?
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| A Rogers wrote: | | I'm 26 I own a 16 year old XG that cost $75 and came with a working spare, I've put >1500hours on it; the picture looks groovy. If it stopped working I could sell the remote that came with it and recoup most of that 75 bucks. I've owned and/or installed a number of digital pjs they are nice too, but how much would it cost to replace the NEC with a digital without losing image quality? |
There is no question used CRT offers a stellar bang-for-buck factor - especially when you score deals like the one you did. Nobody's debating that.
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Mac, let's talk TCO for a second... Most of us here like buying nice used gear. I'm no exception. There are no cheap new projectors I'm interested, so let's compare apples and apples. Used CRT and nice higher-end used digital.
I can buy a mint, low-hour, first-bulb JVC RS2 for $1500. Let's say I watch it for 3 years, put one $300 bulb in it, and sell it for only $500. TCO would be about $1500+$300-$500=$1300 or about $430/year.
I bought my mint G70 a few years ago for $800. Luckily, it had issues, or it would have been much more. If I sell it this fall and get $200 out of it, I'll have spent about $300/year to watch it for the last couple of years. Oh, and I had to buy a $250 HDMI D/A converter to use it with my modern gear. Add that to the equation.
It just isn't that different for me. Now, the next guy who buys my machine? No comparison.. Like A Rogers, he gets a steal. But, if I want to move up to a 9" to get a higher-performance 1080p machine, it's highly likely I'll spend as much, if not more than the JVC.
So, unless the JVC blows up, I'm not see the big TCO difference - not in my situation, at least.
Unless, you know where I can get a 909 or a G90 for a few hundred bucks... Then we can talk.
SC
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A Rogers
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 133
Location: Toronto On
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | A Rogers wrote: | | I'm 26 I own a 16 year old XG that cost $75 and came with a working spare, I've put >1500hours on it; the picture looks groovy. If it stopped working I could sell the remote that came with it and recoup most of that 75 bucks. I've owned and/or installed a number of digital pjs they are nice too, but how much would it cost to replace the NEC with a digital without losing image quality? |
There is no question used CRT offers a stellar bang-for-buck factor - especially when you score deals like the one you did. Nobody's debating that.
SC |
all too often all I see on this forum is talk about the super high end setups I just wanted to point out that for the diy limited funds market the CRT can't really be beat, and for some of us it is the only entry into high(acceptable IQ) end HTs. I'm not really interested in the debate too much, I just want to add perspective.
/e
While I may have gotten a really great deal its not that hard to accomplish I bought my pgx also with working spare for the same cost and I got my Runco branded Barco 708 for 150 with mint tubes and ceiling mount.
Last edited by A Rogers on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | None of my posts have been for you anyways SC. Your mind is already made up. I'm just giving due warning to anyone else who is interested. And if not..... THEN THATS MORE WORK FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! |
Please note that I've said time after time after time that both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. I've also said that it's up for each person to make up their mind which attributes of each technology are desirable and undesirable and choose based on the best information they have access to. That's the rub... People make unsubstantiated claims and blow things out of proportion on both sides, and it makes the decision-making process difficult.
I like and dislike both because both have their pluses and minuses. So, no - I haven't "made up my mind" about anything. Well, I have made up mind that you can Curt go WAY overboard with your derision for newer equipment. Listening to you and Curt, the hyperbole makes it sound as if it will be a miracle if the average digital projector lasts a year without exploding into a heap of worthless plastic, and that any digital owner will be feeding bulbs in like quarters in a slot machine... Which just isn't true.
NOBODY here has claimed that digital projectors - any of them - are in any way as reliable long-term or as easily repairable as a CRT projector. The question is, how much less reliable is a digital. You simply can't (or won't) answer that. Personally, I DO NOT need a projector that will last 20 years. If I'm going to use it 3 or 4 years before I want to move on to trying something different, why would I?
SC |
You started this whole debate when you stated what your only losses would be if you switched to digital.
As far as Curt and myself blowing this out of proportion....we live in the repair world and have for decades. We know how CRT stuff is/was built and we know how digital stuff is built. We also both have conversations with other repair techs around the globe on many occasions per week. And the conclusions are equal to a degree of 100%.
So you can either believe it or not.
I've had to say this just recently on another forum.
I still cannot understand how someone who has pretty much no repair experience can argue build quality with an experienced tech who is involved in repair on a daily basis. It makes no sense at all......
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Mac, let's talk TCO for a second... Most of us here like buying nice used gear. I'm no exception. There are no cheap new projectors I'm interested, so let's compare apples and apples. Used CRT and nice higher-end used digital.
I can buy a mint, low-hour, first-bulb JVC RS2 for $1500. Let's say I watch it for 3 years, put one $300 bulb in it, and sell it for only $500. TCO would be about $1500+$300-$500=$1300 or about $430/year.
I bought my mint G70 a few years ago for $800. Luckily, it had issues, or it would have been much more. If I sell it this fall and get $200 out of it, I'll have spent about $300/year to watch it for the last couple of years. Oh, and I had to buy a $250 HDMI D/A converter to use it with my modern gear. Add that to the equation.
It just isn't that different for me. Now, the next guy who buys my machine? No comparison.. Like A Rogers, he gets a steal. But, if I want to move up to a 9" to get a higher-performance 1080p machine, it's highly likely I'll spend as much, if not more than the JVC.
So, unless the JVC blows up, I'm not see the big TCO difference - not in my situation, at least.
Unless, you know where I can get a 909 or a G90 for a few hundred bucks... Then we can talk.
SC |
OK, lets start over. Let me read this more thoroughly and then comment.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Boilermaker wrote: |
That isn't quit true. First, lets look a little closer at what the new 4K machines really are. There is not now, nor will there be in my lifetime a source of 4K movies. The 4K machines scale up to 4K from 1080 programming material. The prime reason for the scaling was to be able to get closer to the screen without seeing the screen door effect. The horizontal upscaling just got a free ride because they are stuck with square pixels. There is not a real increase in resolution - It is more a marketing specsmanship IMHO.
Bob |
Do you have anything to back this up? I can see 4k BR discs or some other distribution coming about in the next three to four years.
Mac,
I am curious what the repair rate for commercial digital pjs are. Do you have any data on this? Having seen the Barcos, DPIs, Sims, etc., they look to be built well. Also, I can't imagine that the VDC LED pj has a high failure rate. I know Scott did a lot of testing on it.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I still cannot understand how someone who has pretty much no repair experience can argue build quality with an experienced tech who is involved in repair on a daily basis. It makes no sense at all...... |
You understand I'm not arguing that, right? No informed person would argue that. The question is, what build quality is truly necessary for the average individual with a home theater that just wants to watch a couple of movies a week and play some games.
I'd argue that even if build quality was important, that a commercial-grade CRT projector is MASSIVE overkill. It's a little like saying we should all be driving Ford F-350 Super Dutys for a our daily drivers - because they're built so much better and are so much more bulletproof than a Ford Escape. Perhaps all we need is a Ford Escape, and the disadvantages of the F-350 aren't worth the advantage of durability.
I know the two aren't directly comparable, but you get my point.
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Mac, let's talk TCO for a second... Most of us here like buying nice used gear. I'm no exception. There are no cheap new projectors I'm interested, so let's compare apples and apples. Used CRT and nice higher-end used digital.
I can buy a mint, low-hour, first-bulb JVC RS2 for $1500. Let's say I watch it for 3 years, put one $300 bulb in it, and sell it for only $500. TCO would be about $1500+$300-$500=$1300 or about $430/year.
I bought my mint G70 a few years ago for $800. Luckily, it had issues, or it would have been much more. If I sell it this fall and get $200 out of it, I'll have spent about $300/year to watch it for the last couple of years. Oh, and I had to buy a $250 HDMI D/A converter to use it with my modern gear. Add that to the equation.
It just isn't that different for me. Now, the next guy who buys my machine? No comparison.. Like A Rogers, he gets a steal. But, if I want to move up to a 9" to get a higher-performance 1080p machine, it's highly likely I'll spend as much, if not more than the JVC.
So, unless the JVC blows up, I'm not see the big TCO difference - not in my situation, at least.
Unless, you know where I can get a 909 or a G90 for a few hundred bucks... Then we can talk.
SC |
First off, your G70 at this point is not costing you any money per year unless it has a failure, which can still be repaired for a reasonable sum. And it may have 20 years of life left based on the hours per month you claim.
Now you buy this used JVC like you say. Even if it lasted 20 years you still would have replaced quite a few bulbs.
But maybe in this scenario you can except that. But your TCO has changed.
But if you sell off every few years to get newer tech then it's costing you a few thousand every few years. And this is also providing you dont have a failure.
If you have any failures along the way, your in big trouble as far as your TCO.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | I still cannot understand how someone who has pretty much no repair experience can argue build quality with an experienced tech who is involved in repair on a daily basis. It makes no sense at all...... |
You understand I'm not arguing that, right? No informed person would argue that.
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But you are arguing that when you comment with Curt and I are blowing this stuff out of proportion.
If I could I would give you my password to some of the private tech sites I'm on and you could read the comments. I'm not speaking just my own words when I comment on digital build quality and longevity. And many of these tech are authorized repair centers and warranty for all different manufacturers, including the pro division.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Nash,
Where did you find that pic? That looks like Roger Galvin. I wonder if that is the rearpro triple stack he set up in NJ.
I did a search and the only thing I could find is a smiling Crabb at Cliffy's meet. I think deep down Steve really wants to go with a quad stack blend.
Crabb is in the first pic talking to Ken Whitcomb and the last pic on the bottom left smiling.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16351226
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Boilermaker wrote: |
That isn't quit true. First, lets look a little closer at what the new 4K machines really are. There is not now, nor will there be in my lifetime a source of 4K movies. The 4K machines scale up to 4K from 1080 programming material. The prime reason for the scaling was to be able to get closer to the screen without seeing the screen door effect. The horizontal upscaling just got a free ride because they are stuck with square pixels. There is not a real increase in resolution - It is more a marketing specsmanship IMHO.
Bob |
Do you have anything to back this up? I can see 4k BR discs or some other distribution coming about in the next three to four years.
Mac,
I am curious what the repair rate for commercial digital pjs are. Do you have any data on this? Having seen the Barcos, DPIs, Sims, etc., they look to be built well. Also, I can't imagine that the VDC LED pj has a high failure rate. I know Scott did a lot of testing on it. |
I can actually tell you who builds VDC's LED projectors..... but I wont, LOL.
On the others you mention, I'm curious what you mean when you say "they LOOK to be built well", LOL?
I'm also curious of what you think of the BenQ line of projectors.....
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you have anything to back this up? I can see 4k BR discs or some other distribution coming about in the next three to four years |
.
No, but I sure haven't heard that they will ever exist either. I feel it is just logical for many reasons such as:
1 - A new standard product has huge development costs which would only be overcome by huge sales, and this would be very, very niche at best.
2 - Even if HDMI is physically capable of handling these frequencies, a new standard would have to be developed.
3 - 90+% of the consuming public that buys discs is perfectly satisfied with dvd's played on their HDTV's.
4 - Sales of all discs - cd, dvd and bd are not where the industry wants them (or expected them to be).
5 - The obvious trend is towards streaming on both audio and now video, and it is projected to increase drastically. Even broadcast networks are losing market shares to this.
6 - If you think Hollywood is paranoid about content protection at 1080, how do you think they would feel about 4K either in disc or streamed?
7 - Resolution is no longer the single biggest parameter of quality in video.
8 - I really don't think any medium will exist other than one of the ATSC standards for consumer use.
Just my opinions! Hell, I'm just hoping for anamorphic BD's someday!!!
Bob
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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