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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Ok, then you have a defective VIM. That shot is showing a bunch of noise problems. Have you replaced the tants (caps) on the VIM and CLM yet? |
No everything is still standard. Didn't know i should replace those... 
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Ok, then you have a defective VIM. That shot is showing a bunch of noise problems. Have you replaced the tants (caps) on the VIM and CLM yet? |
No everything is still standard. Didn't know i should replace those... |
In high hour Marquee, those caps would most likely need replacing. And when you replace the, do so using electrolytics.
Replace the four tants behind (right at the multi-pin connector) the DPB with 100uf 25vdc
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Ok, then you have a defective VIM. That shot is showing a bunch of noise problems. Have you replaced the tants (caps) on the VIM and CLM yet? |
No everything is still standard. Didn't know i should replace those... |
In high hour Marquee, those caps would most likely need replacing. And when you replace the, do so using electrolytics.
Replace the four tants behind (right at the multi-pin connector) the DPB with 100uf 25vdc |
My vim look like this, and its a low hour machine, 1600 everything is like new.. all caps i tested was perfect. Not a singel sign of overheating on any boards or components. Is it those small yellow square 10u 35 and 15V.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | Ok, then you have a defective VIM. That shot is showing a bunch of noise problems. Have you replaced the tants (caps) on the VIM and CLM yet? |
No everything is still standard. Didn't know i should replace those... |
In high hour Marquee, those caps would most likely need replacing. And when you replace the, do so using electrolytics.
Replace the four tants behind (right at the multi-pin connector) the DPB with 100uf 25vdc |
My vim look like this, and its a low hour machine, 1600 everything is like new.. all caps i tested was perfect. Not a singel sign of overheating on any boards or components. Is it those small yellow square 10u 35 and 15V.? |
When going after noise on this board, you don't replace caps, you upgrade them to electrolytics.
And if you're one for not seeing that noise and wanting the better low end noise floor, then you'll definately need to do cap upgrades. My VIM also has inductors added.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have a bag of new 100uf 25v 105c nipon chemicon.. will that do.? and where to stop.? all those yellow caps or? and should they be replaced with 100uf 25v all of them.? some are rated 35v
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | I have a bag of new 100uf 25v 105c nipon chemicon.. will that do.? and where to stop.? all those yellow caps or? and should they be replaced with 100uf 25v all of them.? some are rated 35v |
Do what you can to replace all and any of the tants on both VIM and CLM using those 100uf 25vdc caps. The problem you may run into replacing them all, would be that the size of the cap could be an issue.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Like this.?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Like this.? |
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | Looks like he put a switch to turn off and on U106. he tied into the power supply pins which are lifted. At least thats what it looks like to me |
Yep. I lifted the two (+5 Vcc) pins from the board, and soldered them together by jumping a wire across to the other.
| Quote: | | Basically the idea I posted above, but Mike doesnt it affect the Vims ability to keep external video on? Wouldn't the Pixel generator turned off disable the INT/EXT signal as well? |
By disabling the power to U106, It removes everything related to OSD and Internal Generator. And with that being done, there would be no need for INT-EXT switching because there would only be one source, (EXT) which in my case would be the Moome card. I would still be able to switch from Source 1 to 2 (but no OSD).
With the switch off (no power to U106) none of the OSD or Internal Patterns show on the screen, when any of them (#, UTIL, *, GEOM, CONV, PIC, ETC..) are pressed on the remote.
Contrast and Brightness still functions, but without showing OSD.
----
With the switch off (no power to U106), the LINE on the far right completely disappears on my screen. The image darkens slightly and if there's any white text on the screen, it looks sharper and cleaner. White text in scenes also look sharper and cleaner. When it normally has a bloom to it (see shot below).
Also, when looking into the tubes. The fuzz, lines and elevated white are also gone when the switch is off.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
So the switch would allow a viewing mode and align or adjust mode. |
this looks like the most effective solution reading through all posts.
thanks mike, i will be trying this on my clm cause i thought it was me worrying about the slightly elevated black level and thus thought that it was merely a setup issue.
i don`t care about a toggle on/off via the remote really though it would be nice.
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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mike, did you use the remote connector from the clm as a switch or did you put in a switch that happens to fit in the existing hole?
my remote connector looks differently.
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | mike, did you use the remote connector from the clm as a switch or did you put in a switch that happens to fit in the existing hole?
my remote connector looks differently. |
I started out removing the remote connector and putting a switch in the same hole it came out of. I'm using a mini toggle (SPST) switch. It's connected to switch the 5v B+ to U106.
I've since started looking into leaving U106 powered at all times, but switching the INT-EXT line into the video chain on the VIM. Still working this out, but this will be the way I'll be going with this, because I can filter the noise on the RGB Internals using beads.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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thanks.
still, using beads to filter the noise doesn`t irradicate if fully like the way you did it now.
i will settle with this for the reason mentioned earlier.
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | When going after noise on this board, you don't replace caps, you upgrade them to electrolytics.
And if you're one for not seeing that noise and wanting the better low end noise floor, then you'll definately need to do cap upgrades. My VIM also has inductors added. |
Please forgive my ignorance but why does electrolytic caps meant to be upgrades over tants? Tants has better ESR characteristics than electrolytics.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Quote: | When going after noise on this board, you don't replace caps, you upgrade them to electrolytics.
And if you're one for not seeing that noise and wanting the better low end noise floor, then you'll definately need to do cap upgrades. My VIM also has inductors added. |
Please forgive my ignorance but why does electrolytic caps meant to be upgrades over tants? Tants has better ESR characteristics than electrolytics. |
I was thinking the same thing. Unless they are OsCon's 
Nashou
_________________
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Quote: | When going after noise on this board, you don't replace caps, you upgrade them to electrolytics.
And if you're one for not seeing that noise and wanting the better low end noise floor, then you'll definately need to do cap upgrades. My VIM also has inductors added. |
Please forgive my ignorance but why does electrolytic caps meant to be upgrades over tants? Tants has better ESR characteristics than electrolytics. |
ask stridsvognen and see what results he got after changing the tants to electrolytics. I use tants for pull-up or decoupling, but for all DC rails electrolytics is a must.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Please forgive my ignorance but why does electrolytic caps meant to be upgrades over tants? Tants has better ESR characteristics than electrolytics. |
there you go, starting ahuge capacitorr argument again. 
I think it's first a quality issue, the ones E-home used are not premium quality, they were made in mexico. Secondly The older Tant's have ESR running in the 1 to 5ohm range. Some of the newer ones are .5 to .2 but they are not cheap, 2 to 3 dollars each.
3rd, I think the Al electrolytic s also have a flatter impedance curve and effectively filter over a wider frequency range.
You can get SMD Alum. from Panasonic in the 300mohm ESR range for 30 cents a piece with 10,000 hour rated life span at 105C. They are my favorites and fit nicely on the board without making the effective trace length any longer.
I wouldn't use them to couple the signal chain but for AC noise by-pass they are pretty good.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I really didn't answer your question, so let me answer it with a question; have you ever seen tants used in switching power supplies on the DC outputs?
Also, Electrohome was the only CRT projector I know of, and one of the only pieces of electronic gear manufactured that I can recall, that used tants on the DC rails. Tants are perfect for decoupling, meaning they do great with with taming high frequency oscillation and such, but should not be used in DC rails where there are serious high ripple voltage.
When dealing with video circuits that operate from high frequency switching power supplies, forget all about ESR, because even the NEWER cheap caps will perform better when used in the right circuit. the only real thing to consider in these circuits is the temperature of the cap. So if using high temp caps (105c), then all should be well. high temp caps are also high frequency caps. And a good high frequency cap would be the thing to use for high frequency DC switching power supply rails.
next question; are the tants temperature rated?
So with all the switching power supplies manufactured using electrolytics on the DC rails, maybe they are on to something??
| draganm wrote: |
the Al electrolytic s also have a flatter impedance curve and effectively filter over a wider frequency range.
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They surely filter better at the frequency range that the switch mode power supplies operate at, and they can handle the high ripple voltage of the switch mode power supply far longer than tants.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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I changed all the caps on the CLM and VIM, the other night, and have been looking movies, playing with calibration.
I have to say, exept for the line and light elevated black area, its a stunning pic.
On the VIM i mostly used 47uf 25V. tried 100uf, but think it looked slightly softer. I'm not sure if its so or I'm just imagining.
Looks like gray scale calibration gets easier. more control over the low level.
Those nippon Chemicon caps i used seems quite nice for the purpose, i don't know to much about caps, but for audio purpose i normally find that most low ESR hi spec caps performs worse. like they are resonating/ ringing.. normally i hear better low frequency on low ESR caps, but much worse high frequency. My theory is that a cap can be to stiff and bunch noise around.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | Oh, I really didn't answer your question, so let me answer it with a question; have you ever seen tants used in switching power supplies on the DC outputs?
Also, Electrohome was the only CRT projector I know of, and one of the only pieces of electronic gear manufactured that I can recall, that used tants on the DC rails. Tants are perfect for decoupling, meaning they do great with with taming high frequency oscillation and such, but should not be used in DC rails where there are serious high ripple voltage.
When dealing with video circuits that operate from high frequency switching power supplies, forget all about ESR, because even the NEWER cheap caps will perform better when used in the right circuit. the only real thing to consider in these circuits is the temperature of the cap. So if using high temp caps (105c), then all should be well. high temp caps are also high frequency caps. And a good high frequency cap would be the thing to use for high frequency DC switching power supply rails.
next question; are the tants temperature rated?
So with all the switching power supplies manufactured using electrolytics on the DC rails, maybe they are on to something??
| draganm wrote: |
the Al electrolytic s also have a flatter impedance curve and effectively filter over a wider frequency range.
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They surely filter better at the frequency range that the switch mode power supplies operate at, and they can handle the high ripple voltage of the switch mode power supply far longer than tants. |
At the uninversity we did some measurements with a professional Wayne-Kerr component analyzer, however I have to admit the fact that the capacitance of the electrolytic and tant cap isn't the same coluld be the base of further arguments, but you can see the effective capacitance falls really quickly with growing frequency with electrolytic cap, but the tant goes quite well.
I don't say the tants are the best capacitor of all type, but they have their strenghts. Tants are very sensitive for (high)voltage peaks (they tend to short) and they don't stand any reverse current, but they are "faster" than electrolytic caps.
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalum_capacitor worth a look
| Description: |
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| Description: |
| standard 47uF electrolytic cap |
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_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: |
They surely filter better at the frequency range that the switch mode power supplies operate at, and they can handle the high ripple voltage of the switch mode power supply far longer than tants. |
At the uninversity we did some measurements with a professional Wayne-Kerr component analyzer, however I have to admit the fact that the capacitance of the electrolytic and tant cap isn't the same coluld be the base of further arguments, but you can see the effective capacitance falls really quickly with growing frequency with electrolytic cap, but the tant goes quite well.
I don't say the tants are the best capacitor of all type, but they have their strenghts. Tants are very sensitive for (high)voltage peaks (they tend to short) and they don't stand any reverse current, but they are "faster" than electrolytic caps.
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalum_capacitor worth a look[/quote]
I'm not arguing against using tants, or tants being a super cap, I said i use them myself. But what I found is much like what you'll find in almost every electronic application in use today. And that is you'll not likely find tants being used in power supply rails other than device decoupling or other special very high frequency timing circuits.
And as you listed; "tants are faster than electrolytics", which is what I had mentioned about them being better for device decoupling because they can tame oscillation very well and better than electrolytics. And that's why I use them in the decoupling stages.
Also as you indicated ("Tants are very sensitive for (high)voltage peaks (they tend to short) and they don't stand any reverse current") - would probably be the reason why they are not used in switching power supply DC rails.
Tants have a much longer shelf life over electrolytics, but as draganm pointed out ("the ones E-home used are not premium quality, they were made in mexico. Secondly The older Tant's have ESR running in the 1 to 5ohm range"), not all tants are the same.
And check this out:
| stridsvognen wrote: |
its a low hour machine, 1600 everything is like new.. all caps i tested was perfect. Not a singel sign of overheating on any boards or components. Is it those small yellow square 10u 35 and 15V.? |
then he replaced those like new low hour tants for elctrolytics:
| stridsvognen wrote: | I changed all the caps on the CLM and VIM, the other night, and have been looking movies, playing with calibration.
I have to say, exept for the line and light elevated black area, its a stunning pic.
On the VIM i mostly used 47uf 25V. tried 100uf, but think it looked slightly softer. I'm not sure if its so or I'm just imagining.
Looks like gray scale calibration gets easier. more control over the low level.
Those nippon Chemicon caps i used seems quite nice for the purpose, i don't know to much about caps, but for audio purpose i normally find that most low ESR hi spec caps performs worse. like they are resonating/ ringing.. normally i hear better low frequency on low ESR caps, but much worse high frequency. My theory is that a cap can be to stiff and bunch noise around. |
I'm for them both, but as I said before, its all about using them in the right circuit. So neither of them are best for all circuits. And to further prove this, again, you will find electrolytics used in a many decoupling circuit, but its rare to find tants used on DC rails. Even the very latest PC mother boards still use electrolytics in both switching power supplies and for the filter/switching caps they use all around the CPU's.
I'm not into the boutique cap thing. But do believe that some caps work better than others in video applications. But has also found that almost all of the earlier caps were to some degree junk.
And for any of the Marquees that use those same yellow caps, forget what your ESR meter or cap meter says when it says they are good, because they are most likely BAD. They fail in handling those very fine oscillations (very high frequency), which they should do well, and I'm sure I'm right when I say, the ripple from the switching power supply has rendered them a very short and ineffective life span. But your meter says they are good - go figure..
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