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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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obviously a cms can't change the underlying primary color of the device...do you even need to say this? Or is it just another example of you liking to hear yourself talk...or read the words that you have typed?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | obviously a cms can't change the underlying primary color of the device...do you even need to say this? Or is it just another example of you liking to hear yourself talk...or read the words that you have typed? |
Apparently you like to hear me talk. So lets continue.....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | obviously a cms can't change the underlying primary color of the device.. |
Correct but the prism, or polarizer would, which is why I brought it up.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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yes...the green of the JVC is oversaturated...this was clearly established, after which you said it was adjustable in the service menu. I mean...you were wrong. Can you just admit that?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | yes...the green of the JVC is oversaturated...this was clearly established, after which you said it was adjustable in the service menu. I mean...you were wrong. Can you just admit that? |
Listen Ben. You seem to be ducking my posts. But here is what I will say. And listen carefully so you understand it.
If, somewhere in this thread I said that the slider adjustment of the RS1 will change the green primary of the projector....then I was wrong.
But I find it difficult to believe that I did in fact say that because I already know it can't, because you can't change the projectors primary wavelengths. And repeatedly said so.
Now if there is something in this post you dont understand or know the meaning of a word, please say so.
So, again, did you know what wavelength meant?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Hey Ben, before I sign off for the night I thought I would throw something else at ya.
I went back into the RS1/RS2 service manual to recheck what I looked at before as I only skimmed through it the other day. What I found was that the settings I saw in the service menu were not the slider adjustments. The slider adjustments are called RGB bias as I believe they are in the menu.
But there are another set of "hidden " adjustments called RGB offset. Now I'm assuming these would be more of a sub contrast type setting and I have my own opinion as to what they would do but I wont post that because I dont want to go down another road.
But apparently these adjustments are only accessible by connecting the projector to a PC and using certain software. Naturally no help to the regular Joe and if you don't have the service manual you would never know they are there.
And by the way, I'm posting this for information only....... not stating anything.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Mac, I'll re-state that you have strike me as an intelligent person, so this and subsequent posts are not meant to offend or insult you, but rather to point out some rather large issues I take with what you've said from a technical standpoint.
I'm not going to debate what you really meant as that's useless - I can't see inside your head and really know what you may or may not have meant to communicate. However I will agree with others that, at best, the way you communicated what you were supposedly trying to say was vague and poorly worded at best. You seem fixated on the basics of how a digital light engine physically works, which is really inconsequential to the gamut discussion that we've been having. Stating that the wavelength of light (or, more correctly, range of wavelengths per color) cannot be physically changed is stating the blatantly obvious. It is also irrelevant with respect to using a CMS to change a digital projector's greyscale, gamut, and gamma.
Maybe your level of understanding of these issues has led you to believe that what you're saying is of consequence to the discussion, that your inclusion of the RS1's white balance controls in a discussion about gamut was somehow relevant. I can assure you that it was not and is not, and from my perspective it seems that you've set up straw-man arguments in an attempt to lend relevancy to statements that you've made when they really have none to this conversation.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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And the conversation continues. I thought it was done.
I wont comment on your post as of yet Hog but I'm curious as to why you did not comment on my post about the hidden RGB offset adjustments in the RS1/RS2.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I wont comment on your post as of yet Hog but I'm curious as to why you did not comment on my post about the hidden RGB offset adjustments in the RS1/RS2. |
As I already explained, they're an irrelevant strawman - they're white balance controls (just as the ones in the regular user menu), and although it's been said numerous times and I feel like a broken record, I will repeat one more time - they have nothing to do with the oversaturated gamut convo that has been going on.
They're doubly irrelevant in the RS2 because that came with an extensive 11-point parametric per-color (separate RGB) and overall (white) gamma/greyscale adjustments that could be used to dial in the white balance and gamma quite accurately for someone who knew what they were doing. It still had no controls to adjust the gamut - those didn't come until the next generation in the RS20 CMS - but it was a significant step in the right direction over the crude user/service menu greyscale controls (which, to re-iterate one more time, could do NOTHING for the oversaturated gamut).
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:45 am Post subject: |
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The CIE chart from an RS1 tells it all.
Mike
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Here's part of my guide that includes a picture of the RS1 primaries together with a typical CRT projector (with either tinted glycol or tinted c-elements:
| Quote: | Many new displays today artificially boost or shift how they create colours in order to be able to display colours outside the Rec601 or Rec709 range. They often do this on purpose to increase light output (by boosting green and blue) and/or to make the colours appear more 'vivid' or 'pleasing'. It's important to remember that this is completely incorrect! The end result is a picture that is not what the director intended for you to see. This can be shown using a real-world example using two different display technologies: Our Barco Cine 8 Onyx projector which uses CRT tube technology and the popular high-end JVC RS1 projector which uses digital D-ILA technology:
We would like both projectors to have primaries that fall exactly on the black triangle that is our target Rec709 (HD) colour space. The Barco primaries are pretty close: Green and blue are almost perfect while red is slightly over saturated (farther out than it should be) but it's reasonably close so no further correction is needed or warranted. If you really wanted perfection a colour processor could be added to correct this but we feel it's close enough. The imperfection in red will not be noticed in regular content as while it is over saturated, it isn't pushing to either side so red isn't tinted orange or purple - it's simply a little "too" red.
The JVC primaries on the other hand are much worse and the imperfections will most certainly be noticed when viewing regular content. The primaries are considerably outside the Rec709 (HD) standard which causes the colours to appear much too vibrant. This is especially true of the green primary which is also shifted to the left which gives the image a yellowish hue to all greens. The JVC does not have a colour management system (CMS) for altering the primaries so an advanced processor or other modifications are required if we wish to move the primaries to more accurate values.
So why isn't more vibrant colours a better thing? You may think that being able to display colours that are outside the standard is a good thing as it'll give you a broader range of colours. Unfortunately that's not true. While more vibrant colours may look pleasing in some cases (cartoons or other artificial content) it will not look correct for the other 90%+ of content that we are familiar with such as human faces or objects from nature we see every day (the sky, grass, and so on).
Your greyscale may be set perfectly, but if the colour space of a display is too far outside the SD or HD defined standards, that grass is going to look bright neon-green. This is one reason why many people complain that many digital displays out of the box look 'cartoony' or 'fake'. Whenever you look to buy a new display regardless of technology, make sure to do some research into how accurate the primaries are and/or make sure some method to adjust the primaries and secondaries is offered in order to get them closer to the correct values. Don't ask the sales person on the show room floor how accurate the primaries are however - you'll only get a blank stare in return.  |
Complete guide is here: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=10457.html
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Mac, are you familiar with calibration basics at all? The more you post, the more I get the impression that you don't know anything about video calibration because your content continues to be completely unrelated to any of the discussions that the rest of us were having. I'm at a complete loss as to what it is you think you're illustrating/achieving as you've been told by more than one person that your replies simply don't apply to the conversation at hand - the only mess/confusion here is on your end.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't read the all the posts but......
The primaries can be adjusted only in a reduction fashion. You can not add more color from the original primary unless you add a colored lens as in CRT projectors to correct the deficiency of red and green phosphors.
So yes you can adjust the primaries in the RS1 since they are naturally over saturated and can be lowered to more closely match the CIE charts standard.
Most likely from the service menu or with an external VP.
Nashou
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I didn't read the all the posts but......
The primaries can be adjusted only in a reduction fashion. You can not add more color from the original primary unless you add a colored lens as in CRT projectors to correct the deficiency of red and green phosphors.
So yes you can adjust the primaries in the RS1 since they are naturally over saturated and can be lowered to more closely match the CIE charts standard.
Most likely from the service menu or with an external VP.
Nashou |
Actually that's not what we're talking about. All of us - except for mac - have been talking about whether the primaries are adjustable using the on-board controls on the RS1. The RS1's gamut is not adjustable without the use of an external VP, but yes its native gamut is outside the REC709 standard so any suitably equipped VP could reign it back in.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Gottcha! Didnt feel like reading all the posts.
Nashou |
No worries, I can't say I blame you 
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crap......I think i get it.
In the RS1 the 3 primarys produced in the light engine are not correct to industry standards. So in the projected image the primarys are incorrect and oversaturated and so are all the shads in between. And even if there were a control to adjust the saturation it still would not correct the primaries or the shades in between. And the only way to fix this is by remapping each pixel with a CMS>>>>>
Please tell me I got it.... 
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
Please tell me I got it.... |
by jove i think he's got it!
Mike
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Holy crap......I think i get it.
In the RS1 the 3 primarys produced in the light engine are not correct to industry standards. So in the projected image the primarys are incorrect and oversaturated and so are all the shads in between. |
Yes, you're correct.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | And even if there were a control to adjust the saturation |
There is, it is the "color" control, which really is designed to adjust a composite Y/C signal (i.e. the kind carried by the yellow video cable in a red/white/yellow RCA cable combo) rather than individually adjust each primary. Using it desaturates each primary equally, and also decreases their lightness (Y) equally, but as you can see from the RS1 gamut chart each primary is oversaturated by a different amount. Fixing the saturation of one color using the "color" control results in the others being off, and the lightness of all three primaries being too low.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | it still would not correct the primaries or the shades in between. |
Not quite - the color control can change the primaries (digitally), it just changes them all simultaneously so it's essentially useless for fixing this problem.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | And the only way to fix this is by remapping each pixel with a CMS>>>>> |
Yes, a properly designed CMS will have at least the ability individually adjust the hue, saturation, and lightness of each primary, and ideally of each secondary as well. Unfortunately no such controls were included in the RS1 or RS2.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Please tell me I got it.... |
I'd say you're close enough
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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