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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Well Barclay, i drive a Mercedes Benz for the same reason... ( a German made one, not one made in another country under licence... )
High quality design is no longer something that is available these days so it seems when it comes to general household electronics. Almost everything now seems to be made to last only a couple years, which is just bull****. Then WHEN it fails, its almost a waste of time and money to try repairing it, cause you can usually replace it for less.
There is no good reason for this needless waste, which is exactly what it is, cause when it cant be fixed, it goes to the dump. Like as if we need more garbage to throw out.
Why cant these things be built properly with QUALITY parts like they used to be? Sure still make the cheap sh*t for those that dont want to pay for something that will last, cause there will always be those people that think they got a bargain on that item and then bitch like sh*t 12 months and 1 week later when it dies only a week out of warranty.... I would personally pay alot more for an item that would last me a decade and still be useful than i ever would for something that wont last to the end of next year...
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I would personally pay alot more for an item that would last me a decade and still be useful than i ever would for something that wont last to the end of next year... |
I see we share the same philosophy! 
I don't know if in English there is a similiar saying like we have in Germany: If you buy cheap you will have to buy twice!
Regards,
barclay66
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Close enough mate, in Australia we just say "you only get what you pay for". These days, if you buy cheap, chances are youll buy TWICE A YEAR with the way things are built now!! 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Thanks mate, i did search and couldnt find it.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Now that we have a head start on the subject, perhaps we can convince the powers that be to merge the threads together.
It would be nice to have one "master capacitor" thread in sticky form. Then those who get their jollies off shotgunning in a hundred caps at a time might give it a second thought and put some effort into testing them first.
I'm sure only a very few here remember 8-10 years ago over at AVS when a particular forum member was making wild claims about how much increase in performance he could get out of a ECP just by "upgrading" capacitors in the projector.
Shortly after, dozens of DOA ECP's started showing up on fleabay. Now I'm not saying he didn't do any good but you can't make a ECP out perform a Marquee no mater what.
Test as you go. Change a few and test. If you swap out a hundred at a time and install one bad one, you're screwed.
If you have the equipment, test the new ones BEFORE you install them.
Never, never, never start modding a broken projector. Get it running reliably first then F**K it up 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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mc86
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 767
Location: pittsburgh, pa
TV/Projector: ECP 4500 (Vidikron box), ECP4500+, wanting 07MS/07MTS, evaluating pc soft-blend
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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If ever the importance of operating at lower than rated temperatures can be seen, it is in electrolytic capacitor lifetimes! See easy to find links on wikipedia, google, etc. To way oversimplify, it looks sorta' exponential with other factors (voltage applied, ripple, etc) playing a role. 2000 miniumu hours of use isn't a lot for these CRTs and that seemed to be a common number for some of what I looked at...is this way wrong?
Also, what is the criteria for lifetime failure -- do they specify performance within the rated capacitance spec OR do specs include the original ESR staying within an original design spec?
BTW, it took me a while last year to figure out that re-capping an ECP for performance-gains was unnecessary...of course, re-capping for life-expectancy/maintenance, I have no idea. I will say my 14yrs old ECP does show "age associated diseases" such as holding convergence poorly, requiring ~7min warm-up to lock on h-sync, etc. I have no idea the root causes -- I just say it is old and 'sumptings wrong!
Cheers,
Matt
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Well Barclay, i drive a Mercedes Benz for the same reason... ( a German made one, not one made in another country under licence... )
High quality design is no longer something that is available these days so it seems when it comes to general household electronics. Almost everything now seems to be made to last only a couple years, which is just bull****. Then WHEN it fails, its almost a waste of time and money to try repairing it, cause you can usually replace it for less.
There is no good reason for this needless waste, which is exactly what it is, cause when it cant be fixed, it goes to the dump. Like as if we need more garbage to throw out.
Why cant these things be built properly with QUALITY parts like they used to be? Sure still make the cheap sh*t for those that dont want to pay for something that will last, cause there will always be those people that think they got a bargain on that item and then bitch like sh*t 12 months and 1 week later when it dies only a week out of warranty.... I would personally pay alot more for an item that would last me a decade and still be useful than i ever would for something that wont last to the end of next year... |
Consumers are the problem as they will always buy the cheapest item massed produced in China. We are a throw away society just chuck it in the bin and get another one!!
Most people aren't interested in paying the extra for an item that can be repaired. All of this makes no sense when we also seem to live in an environmentally aware world. You would think that a quality long lasting item would be favoured over a throw away item and in peoples minds it is the only problem is their wallets enter the decision making process.
Having said all of that one of the reasons that cheap items are cheap is that the environmental cost of disposal is not part of the purchase price and I would suggest if it was then cheap mass produced items may not be so cheap.
Our whole society is built on lowest cost from the federal government down and great example came out of the movie Armageddon when they were in the modified shuttle waiting for take off to save the world and the conversation went something like;
"We are sitting on 2 nuclear warheads, 8 million pounds of high explosive and a machine that has 270,000 moving parts all built by the lowest bidder. Really gives you confidence doesn't it"
I laugh about that because its true
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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That may be the case KM987654, but there isnt even a choice anymore.
Back when i threw down $4,995 for a Panasonic GAOO TX-47WG25-H rear pro TV, i did so cause i believed it to be the best quality my money could buy me at the time, knowing i couldnt make the stretch to a Toshiba ( which was at the time, the BEST rear pro TV money could buy ). On the front, in capital lettering as BIG as the Panasonic label, was the words "MADE IN JAPAN", cause they were proud of that fact. I was happy to pay this money for this TV over the lesser amounts for others, cause i knew it was built to last a life time. I sold it about 8 years ago, but last i heard only a few months ago, it STILL works without an issue.
These days, what choice do you have? Buy cheap chinese made sh*t, or expensive brand names made in China that are no better anyway, and wont last worth a sh*t.
Its bull****. And as soon as someone tries to launch a decent well put together item, they get slammed for the price they want for something that is probably worth twice what they are asking.
When i buy something, i expect to get a lifetime out of it if i WANT to, and im happy to pay for that.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Just noticed youre from Australia KM987654, what part mate?
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: |
I have a ESR70 on the way. It should be here tomorrow or the next day, which is kinda what got me thinking about starting a ESR thread  |
Well I got my ESR70 and it's a cute little devise but so far I'm not impressed with the results I'm getting from testing it on some old PC mother boards with obvious bulging and leaking caps. I even have one that is actually cracked on the top with electroyte stains on it and it still reads OK ESR. I'm going to pull that cap and test the capacitance of it and see how that checks out. I have another 10V 2200 cap (out of circuit) that actually reads 1735 uF and it's ESR reads correct for a 2200uF cap. Prehaps I should take up knitting for a hobby 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'm starting to get the hang of this tester but it does have a couple of draw backs.
The test leads are to short and stiff. As you move the leads around to probe things the tester slides around on the bench.
The provided leads are crocs so probing in tight quarters sucks. There is mini banana connectors on each lead a couple of inches away from the crocs so it would be nice if they provided matching probes in the package.
I have a brand new Amprobe 33XR-A that I use for work to test run capacitors for HVAC equipment. When I use it to test capactior value out of circuit I get different readings then I do with the ESR70. So now I have to wonder which one is closer to correct.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:36 am Post subject: |
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A run cap for a compressor or fan motor would only be a couple uf wouldnt it? I cant say ive ever had to replace one on a motor, so ive never actually read the side to see what rating they are. Most motors i work with are 3 phase and dont have a cap though too.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | A run cap for a compressor or fan motor would only be a couple uf wouldnt it? I cant say ive ever had to replace one on a motor, so ive never actually read the side to see what rating they are. Most motors i work with are 3 phase and dont have a cap though too. |
The stuff I usually work with like a residential A/C (hermetic) compressor would have a run capacitor in the range of 35-80 uF @370 volts. Most condenser fans will be 5 uF at the same voltage. Most of the stuff I work on is single phase.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:39 am Post subject: |
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OK, I have a pile-o-caps here from a Escient power supply that is not providing enough or correct power for the device to boot up. I know the problem is in the power supply because I chaged it and all is well. There is 12 caps on the output (DC) section of the supply. I did not trust what I was reading from my new meter in circuit so I pulled them all and re-tested out of circuit. The first two are from a earlier attepmt to revive the supply one was blown out from the bottom and the other bulged at the top.
2200 uF 10v 105c
1. 0.41 esr 3373 uF
2. 0.98 esr 1702 uF
3. 0.04 esr 2536 uF
4. 0.04 esr 2330 uF
5. 0.04 esr 2952 uF
2200 16v 105c
1. 0.03 esr 2245 uF
2. 0.02 esr 2213 uF
3. 0.02 esr 2176 uF
1000 16v 105c
1. 0.05 esr 1001 uF
1000 10v 105c
1. 0.06 esr 1113 uF
2. 0.09 esr 1072 uF
10 50v 105c
1. 1.63 esr 9.68 uF
In looking at the results, only the first batch of 5 really command attention. The higher esr readings of 1 and 2 can be explained by the lack of electrolyte from the blow-outs. What confuses me is the low esr readings from 3,4 and 5 considering they have such high capacitance readings.
Anyone care to comment on these readings???
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: |
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And here for your dining pleasure and because I know some of you get wood when someone says the name Rubycon, here one for you. A brand spank the monkey new 1500 uF 10v 105c
THE ESR IS 0.01 and the Capacitance measured at 1482 uF
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:43 am Post subject: |
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So what do you reckon? Replace all those 2200 10s and see how it goes then?
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | So what do you reckon? Replace all those 2200 10s and see how it goes then? |
I plan now to re-cap the whole thing as I went through the trouble of removing all of them. On this particular supply, you have to remove a heat sinc with 4 regulators attached just to get at them. The sinc goes up and over most of the caps on the LV side of the supply. The regulators are fastened to the inside of the sinc so you can't get at the screws to remove them cause the caps are in the way
Because the 16v 2200's held up so good, I will replace the 10's with 16's. The problem is the 16's that I have are to fat to fit in a couple of locations. I'm now searching for 105c 16's that are the same diameter as the 10's.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Anyone care to comment on these readings??? |
Hi,
I think that measuring the ESR may not be an exact science. Depending on the meter type, the quality of the test leads and measurement methods the absolute values may vary. After all we're measuring in the range of miliohms. What can be determined (as you did) is an overall tendency and failure of single caps within a batch. What you can see in addition is that thicker caps provide less ESR than thin ones although they read the same capacitance/voltage specs.
In general I'd rather replace one more cap than waiting for its soon failure.
For your reference I've added an excerpt from my ESR meter's documentation which shows typical readings for different cap specs...
Regards,
barclay66
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Put them somewhere else and run wires to them.
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