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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by zGman on Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Chris,
Do you believe that this pj used to be yours? If so, then that is to funny. Also, if it was, then they can't be upset about not getting any money for something they probably didn't pay much for to begin with.
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself. |
Well maybe for FP but RP is setup from the factory, so unless someone messes with it, it should be fine.
And you got the good enough part right but do they "know" the PQ is not as good and do they "know" that that shiny new digital is only going to last a fraction of the lifespan of CRT?
Also many RP CRTs have DVI inputs and you can use an HDMI to DVI cable. I have mine that way right now. |
Ultimately, I think that it's a perspective thing. My wife is a good example. When my Mits RPTV died recently and we replaced it with a Panny plasma, my wife noticed two things immediately: (1) there was no longer this "gigantic tv" in the middle of the room, (2) the image was much more crisp and vibrant to her.
There's nothing anyone can do about the size difference, but my old Mits wasn't set up to it's full potential. I brought it back from the dead once before after replacing tons of caps and the convergence chip, but I simply didn't have the experience or equipment to dial that thing in to its full potential image-wise. Sure, I could have flown someone in and paid however many hundreds of dollars to get it singing, but to someone like my wife, to do that would have been ridiculous when we can just run down to the house of the blue shirts and pick up a brand spankin' new one that wouldn't require us to fly in a tech to calibrate.
In casual conversations with other former CRT RPTV owners (and from what I've noticed in browsing Craigslist ads), there's one very common statement: their "big / bulky" RPTV that they've had for years suddenly stopped working and was going to cost them $400 - $500 to have someone come replace a part. Then they go on to talk about how that's anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new flat panel costs, so in their mind it doesn't make sense to pay 1/2 the price of a new TV to fix one that they've had for nearly a decade (and probably looked like crap before it broke anyway due to dusty lenses and mirror). Add to that the manufacturers' marketing that talks about tens of thousands of hours before the backlights dim, the massive contrast ratios, the interactive media abilities, the much smaller sizes, the "hip" aspect, etc., and that bulky, often times dead CRT is going to lose out every time. Admitedly, it lost in my house too. |
Again, I can't argue the big bulky part.
However I can argue that having spent the 1/2 of a flat panel cost to repair/clean and readjust the RP CRT, that same CRT would again outlast that shiny digital by a multiple factor, and........ have a better PQ. |
I'm sure that it would, but my point is that for the vast majority of people out there, it's not worth it to them because of the perceived inconvenience involved with repairing/cleaning/calibrating the CRT. In their minds, it's a better investment when they drive home with a brand new display that has a warranty and perhaps even an "extended warranty" from where they bought it. Plus, they get to brag to their friends about the snazzy new flat panel that they just bought. Perception and convenience are often much more important factors in people's buying decisions than longevity and performance.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridebreck wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself. |
Well maybe for FP but RP is setup from the factory, so unless someone messes with it, it should be fine.
And you got the good enough part right but do they "know" the PQ is not as good and do they "know" that that shiny new digital is only going to last a fraction of the lifespan of CRT?
Also many RP CRTs have DVI inputs and you can use an HDMI to DVI cable. I have mine that way right now. |
Ultimately, I think that it's a perspective thing. My wife is a good example. When my Mits RPTV died recently and we replaced it with a Panny plasma, my wife noticed two things immediately: (1) there was no longer this "gigantic tv" in the middle of the room, (2) the image was much more crisp and vibrant to her.
There's nothing anyone can do about the size difference, but my old Mits wasn't set up to it's full potential. I brought it back from the dead once before after replacing tons of caps and the convergence chip, but I simply didn't have the experience or equipment to dial that thing in to its full potential image-wise. Sure, I could have flown someone in and paid however many hundreds of dollars to get it singing, but to someone like my wife, to do that would have been ridiculous when we can just run down to the house of the blue shirts and pick up a brand spankin' new one that wouldn't require us to fly in a tech to calibrate.
In casual conversations with other former CRT RPTV owners (and from what I've noticed in browsing Craigslist ads), there's one very common statement: their "big / bulky" RPTV that they've had for years suddenly stopped working and was going to cost them $400 - $500 to have someone come replace a part. Then they go on to talk about how that's anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new flat panel costs, so in their mind it doesn't make sense to pay 1/2 the price of a new TV to fix one that they've had for nearly a decade (and probably looked like crap before it broke anyway due to dusty lenses and mirror). Add to that the manufacturers' marketing that talks about tens of thousands of hours before the backlights dim, the massive contrast ratios, the interactive media abilities, the much smaller sizes, the "hip" aspect, etc., and that bulky, often times dead CRT is going to lose out every time. Admitedly, it lost in my house too. |
Again, I can't argue the big bulky part.
However I can argue that having spent the 1/2 of a flat panel cost to repair/clean and readjust the RP CRT, that same CRT would again outlast that shiny digital by a multiple factor, and........ have a better PQ. |
I'm sure that it would, but my point is that for the vast majority of people out there, it's not worth it to them because of the perceived inconvenience involved with repairing/cleaning/calibrating the CRT. In their minds, it's a better investment when they drive home with a brand new display that has a warranty and perhaps even an "extended warranty" from where they bought it. Plus, they get to brag to their friends about the snazzy new flat panel that they just bought. Perception and convenience are often much more important factors in people's buying decisions than longevity and performance. |
Oh, I agree 100%. Which is why i started the whole misinformed debate. Most people believe that the new flat panel will last as long as their CRT did.
Even if you told someone as an expert that the new flat panel they are buying for $1000.00 will burn out in 3 years(after any extended warranty) and can't be repaired, or fix your RP CRT for 500.00 and it will last another 6 to 10 years....... a majority would still pick the new flat panel. And this even if size wasn't an issue.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Mac,
You talk about 3 years all time like it's a fact they all die in their third year, but do you have any cold, hard statistics on real average lifespan on new panels? How many are working compared to the number dying?
I know you're repairing a lot of them, and as you know, I've even bought a few 3-4 year-old busted flat panels... But, I also have a >4-year old Olevia that's still working perfectly, and two friends of mine have similar vintage Olevias... Other friends and family have had several flat panels for even longer with similar results. I think out of the 20+ flat panels in friends' and families' possession, I think I know of one that's died, and it was over 4 years old...
A couple of those same people (a friend, my dad) had some expensive direct-view Sony CRT TV's that needed pricey repairs in their ten years or so of ownership, too...
So, my question is, on an individual basis, what's the actual likelihood that a flat panel is going to die in 3 years? Listening to you guys, it seems like it should be close to 100%, but my experience (with my admittedly small sample) doesn't seem to be bearing that out.
Perhaps for every one you repair, there are 10 more that plug along perfectly fine for 5-7 years?!!!?
SC
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I can only answer to what I see come in. Most of the LCD stuff is 3-6 years old, and I'm seeing evidence that the newer the product, the worse the parts quality. LG and Samsung seem to be especially bad regarding this. Recently I've had five LCD computer monitors in that were well under 3 years old with bad caps. Sure, that's a tiny fraction of what's out there, but I'll bet you a Krispy Kreme that the walls of the electrolytic caps are even thinner now than they were 5 years ago.
It's a joke, but hey, it keeps me in business.
I will say that I believe the vast majority of failures are due to LCD screens being smashed by accidents in the home, but again, with panel pricing being expensive, they are an instant writeoff as soon as they are broken. A $1.00 thin piece of plexi in front of the LCD screen would solve that, but no screens that I know of have any protective material in front of them.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Mac,
You talk about 3 years all time like it's a fact they all die in their third year, but do you have any cold, hard statistics on real average lifespan on new panels? How many are working compared to the number dying?
I know you're repairing a lot of them, and as you know, I've even bought a few 3-4 year-old busted flat panels... But, I also have a >4-year old Olevia that's still working perfectly, and two friends of mine have similar vintage Olevias... Other friends and family have had several flat panels for even longer with similar results. I think out of the 20+ flat panels in friends' and families' possession, I think I know of one that's died, and it was over 4 years old...
A couple of those same people (a friend, my dad) had some expensive direct-view Sony CRT TV's that needed pricey repairs in their ten years or so of ownership, too...
So, my question is, on an individual basis, what's the actual likelihood that a flat panel is going to die in 3 years? Listening to you guys, it seems like it should be close to 100%, but my experience (with my admittedly small sample) doesn't seem to be bearing that out.
Perhaps for every one you repair, there are 10 more that plug along perfectly fine for 5-7 years?!!!?
SC |
Yes I do. I am a member of a few private sites for techs only from all over the country and Canada. And these guys are involved in the industry more then I, seeing hundreds of flat panels daily both in and out of warranty.
Then complain more then I do. probably because they are doing it for a living.
So yes, I have the proof.
And no, there are probably many, many units that will outlast 3 years but there are some that will only last a week, or less.
The whole point is lifespan is no where close to that of CRT based and when you get into the repair aspect, CRT will easily win by a multiple, multiple factor.
80 to 90 percnt of the time an analog set can be repaired for a few dollars of parts.
80 to 90 percent of the time a digital will cost 200 to 800 in parts if you buy new.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | And chances are the tubes were shot anyway, an HT unit that old by now is going to be pretty sad. |
i dunno about that, most Vision projecotrs out of private HT's have less than 2K hours on them. Granted I've only seen a few but........
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Chris,
Do you believe that this pj used to be yours? If so, then that is to funny. Also, if it was, then they can't be upset about not getting any money for something they probably didn't pay much for to begin with. |
No. I'm just saying I encountered a similar situation (a Vision 1 that was being dumpstered basically). I rescued it. And I found it a happy home. 
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W9TR
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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It will be interesting to see if we are now where the audio world was in 1970 - more convenient solid state amplifiers replacing those outdated, hot, and high maintenance tube units! A few hard cores held on, and there has been a resurgence of tube based designs in high end audio. Hmmmmm. Does history repeat itself?
Curt, btw every piece of McIntosh gear I've owned has appreciated in value. Full disclosure, I buy smartly, and I buy used. But still, great value. I do agree with your general statement, though.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| W9TR wrote: |
Full disclosure, I buy smartly, and I buy used. . |
Ah, that says it all though, right? I do the same thing with most electronics, except for my main work computer and most of the MP3 players I used to use.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Chris,
Do you believe that this pj used to be yours? If so, then that is to funny. Also, if it was, then they can't be upset about not getting any money for something they probably didn't pay much for to begin with. |
No. I'm just saying I encountered a similar situation (a Vision 1 that was being dumpstered basically). I rescued it. And I found it a happy home. |
And I just put a new green tube and a red C-element in it. And the wife really appreciates the fancy case over my MP9.
Steve
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Huh, a little light just popped on in my head, lol. 
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