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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gannon wrote: | | Plus, Hellywood would have angina-gasms imagining us having that clarity of their work at home, they already have largely lost us in the theaters. |
You wouldn't know they've lost anybody if you actually drive by a theater and see the jam-packed parking lots in spite of the $8-12 ticket prices these days. But, that's because we HT nuts represent a teeny tiny percent of the movie-going public. Plus, considering that Hollywood now makes more money on the home video releases than they do on the theatrical release, I don't think they're too worried about people not going to the theater to watch movies. Theater owners... That's a different story.
| Gannon wrote: | | Heck, I CAN see the difference clearly between 720p and 1080p, and I cannot be bothered merely waiting for the BluRay FBI threat to leave the screen, so I'm still really, truly enjoying DVDs upscaled to 720p on both the Princeton Graphics AF-3.0HD and NEC XG75 on a 7.5-foot wide 1.3 gain screen. It is good enough for this uber-tweak...and I don't have to put up with ANY of the bull**** from BluRay. |
OK, not to be an ass... But, this has me seriously wondering what you're watching... I can't even stand to watch an SD DVD anymore... Even the best DVDs look pretty crappy compared to a decent Blu-ray.
| Gannon wrote: | | I really, really despise any forced firmware updating, and consider anyone who accepts it to be rather sheepish. Sorry. |
You can call my sheepish if you like, but I have a different perspective. I'll tolerate an occasional inconvenience or annoyance to have the very best PQ and SQ. In fact, I can't imagine anybody depriving themselves of having the very best in PQ and SQ because they have to watch a 5-second FBI warning and skip a couple of trailers before they watch a movie. In short, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Hmm.... That kinda sounds like the reason most of us keeping using CRT, eh?
SC
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Gannon wrote: | | So, now that we've got that out of the way...what would a set of 9-inch tubes, a basic chassis, simple minimum power supply, drive electronics for a SINGLE scan rate...without all the mumbo-jumbo necessary for a variety of screen sizes...and three dedicated anamorphic lenses to fill a 8-foot wide flat screen (using the full 4:5 raster area) cost together?! |
The problem is that for less than $5000, you can get one hell of a digital projector that lights up a 10' screen nicely, does decent blacks, resolves 1080p, has great ANSI contrast, decent motion, and exhibits no APL-brightness compression, and it's getting better every year. Oh, and it's small, quiet, and requires no maintenance. Hell, the lenses you're describing all by themselves would cost more than a new JVC RS40.
I love CRT as much as most here, but the ship sailed.
Besides, I don't see how simply limiting the projector to a single scan rate (isn't multi-scan one of CRT's advantages touted by CRT advocates?) is going to be a big cost saver... Seems to me multi-scan is a tiny percentage of the overall cost of a projector.
Sorry - not trying to be a buzz-kill!
SC |
I'm with you, that's why I STARTED this thought-experiment!
There is nothing you can do to kill my buzz.
You MIGHT have me with the lens costs, but I'd have to get info on that from USPL, or whomever is the high-end grinder now. Corning bought them many years ago, right?! While I hate not using the whole phosphor, the trade-off for regular production lenses might make it moot. That might be the first part of this dream to die.
Decent blacks are NOT black enough. Period. Not for high-end video. I've seen even the major expensive fixed pixels, and they all drop the illusion on scene changes. Plus, side-by-side the 9-inch CRTs have that depth of shadows and darker colors which render things more third-dimensional. Fixed pixels always look a bit flat by comparison.
Plus, their peak white output is harsh. Even on some of the best setups I've seen, it basically bludgeons me...like how some high-output speakers attack with the volume. I don't need my video turned up to eleven. Ever.
Decent motion. H-m-m-m-n-n. Nah. Again, not high end liquidity. THAT has been the biggest improvement in the last ten years, as far as I'm concerned, but it is still not up to what CRT can present, even IF some of it is 'dithered' from Kell-factor blurring. I'd defer to someone who's lived with high-end fixed pixel, like Art, for this comparison, but at this point...I daresay he'd not admit it if he thought the CRT had anything over all that money he's spent. Who knows, maybe we can pump Ken with some sodium pentathol someday and get him to drool some truth, LOL!
The corner illumination is the only thing I can admit the fixed-pixel projectors do significantly better. That was the thing I cannot get past with the new technology. Thing is, with decent viewing distances, which to ME are roughly half as close as recommended...usually two screen heights...the way the eye sees focus and peripheral motion, with the density balance of rods and cones from the middle 30% to beyond it, that corner illumination is more easily overlooked than any of the other things which make up a high-end video image.
The biggest thing I can say from what I've experienced in the demonstrations I've seen is CRT still has a great deal of validity, and for those of us who are very sensitive to fatigue it still rules. Absolutely. Easier on the eyes, by quite a long shot. For those of us at the high-end, that means a lot. Longer-term enjoyment. I can sit in front of that Princeton 30-inch tube for three times longer than a similar-sized plasma, and five times longer than the average LCD...while the LCDs have so many distractions, and the Princeton only gives me the occasional trailing on green against black. CLOSEST I ever got was with that last-generation Pioneer Elite plasma, that thing really kicked ass...but then they sold the division!
Plus CRT kills in comparison of basic maintenance costs, if setup conservatively. Calibration is only a bit cheaper with the new stuff, and don't let anyone convince you they don't need it, because they may need it MORE than CRTs...other than the initial convergence. Just going through all the convoluted mis-titled setup menus for proper color space settings to match the level of HDMI source you've got...and analyzing all the arcane band-aids and other discovery takes nearly as long! For instance, one JVC RS25 I setup still had some clipping of peak whites on the INPUT, and if the guy hadn't splurged for the Oppo player with internal video controls, we never would've been able to correct that! The average setup/calibrator might've not even noticed it, because it was in the interval of the test pattern resolution...excepting the gray ramp, which nobody is taught to use for contrast and brightness settings! It was just the top 2 or 3 percent, but enough to destroy the illusion of recreated reality to clouds and snowscapes.
Over ten years, you're looking at at least three bulbs...from $200 to $700 (unless you bought that anything that uses cinema-style $3k bulbs, LOL!) each, so $600 to $2,100 on bulb costs...versus MAYBE a couple hundred for a complicated service call, unless the person insists on a full setup calibration, but even THAT is less than one starting from scratch! LEDs are still largely an unknown, but so far their performance has been quite 'peaky', rendering color a wee bit cartoonish if not precisely adjusted. I teach all my clients to do their drift-convergence, even though I'm sure it costs me return business. I cannot ethically charge full calibration price for a mere touch-up of center drift! (although I have occasionally seen beam-spot focus requiring a tweak once in a while, it would be nice to find a way to measure that remotely)
I'll gladly trade the APL brightness compression, which is a band-aid to get more peak white SPECS out of the CRT, for the variable iris and/or sliding dark-grays evident in most fixed-pixels. Granted, if JVC made theirs even better in the new models, it might render this argument moot, too. That chassis is the main reason I cannot justify anyone spending more than $10k on any projector, unless they want to go to a 2.35 or 2.55 screen. It has been my default favorite fixed-pixel since the first time I saw it.
I also prefer the much better diagonals and radiuses (which occur MUCH more often than simple horizontal and vertical lines in nature) to the falsely-enhanced H&Vs of fixed-pixels. This one is another high-end thing, because I know I am quite sensitive to screen-door moire interference, heck even bridges over the freeway with chain-link fence distortions distract like any shiny thing...LOL!
I spent a TON of time watching the JVC RS35 at a friend's house, who replaced a Runco 980Ultra. I've also spent a good deal of time with the RS25s, too. They are merely nice, but the same size screen with a CRT has WAY lower fatigue. I really liked the JVC, but didn't love it. The CRTs I've setup, I've loved. There is a certain "je ne sais quoi", not unlike the involvement many get from spinning vinyl albums, which I'll also argue against discarding...after learning MY lesson and now having to repurchase all of my favorite albums.
You can watch it for many hours without the same eyestrain.
I'm telling ya, CRT is a better technology to tickle the mere human eye/brain perceptual system. The High End video community would do well to do an apples to apples comparison over a duration of time. Not just how they initially strike the average person. I'd love to get a new Electrohome 9500 Ultra to do a comparison with a similarly priced D-ILA and DLP. Who are the players at $45k...Runco, Sim2, Wolfe, ...are there even a Sony or JVC up at that price point?
I mean, there is more to their continual use in simulators other than the edge-blending/bending capabilities...right, Tim?! Although the natural light-falloff from center-to-edge may be what makes that work best.
I wish I could define it better. CRTs work comfortably, while fixed-pixels require work to be comfortable with.
Cheers
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | This is one of the best posts on Curt Palme I have read in a long time.
Athanasios |
Damn. Thanks. Honored.
I've stumbled upon a few of yours, and it seems we pursue a similar end-result.
Were you the one who insisted the old Faroudja VP-400a did better upscaling of NTSC sources than anything else...even the NRS...at one point?!
I've kept one of my client's discards around just to check that out someday when I've got the time...but would need to upgrade one of my NRSs to variable output for a fair comparison, both are 720p right now.
I almost made the jump to 9-inch CRT a few years back, but financially couldn't justify it. Then someone GAVE me an NEC XG75.
Cheers
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Last edited by Gannon on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Gannon wrote: | | Plus, Hellywood would have angina-gasms imagining us having that clarity of their work at home, they already have largely lost us in the theaters. |
You wouldn't know they've lost anybody if you actually drive by a theater and see the jam-packed parking lots in spite of the $8-12 ticket prices these days. But, that's because we HT nuts represent a teeny tiny percent of the movie-going public. Plus, considering that Hollywood now makes more money on the home video releases than they do on the theatrical release, I don't think they're too worried about people not going to the theater to watch movies. Theater owners... That's a different story.
| Gannon wrote: | | Heck, I CAN see the difference clearly between 720p and 1080p, and I cannot be bothered merely waiting for the BluRay FBI threat to leave the screen, so I'm still really, truly enjoying DVDs upscaled to 720p on both the Princeton Graphics AF-3.0HD and NEC XG75 on a 7.5-foot wide 1.3 gain screen. It is good enough for this uber-tweak...and I don't have to put up with ANY of the bull**** from BluRay. |
OK, not to be an ass... But, this has me seriously wondering what you're watching... I can't even stand to watch an SD DVD anymore... Even the best DVDs look pretty crappy compared to a decent Blu-ray.
| Gannon wrote: | | I really, really despise any forced firmware updating, and consider anyone who accepts it to be rather sheepish. Sorry. |
You can call my sheepish if you like, but I have a different perspective. I'll tolerate an occasional inconvenience or annoyance to have the very best PQ and SQ. In fact, I can't imagine anybody depriving themselves of having the very best in PQ and SQ because they have to watch a 5-second FBI warning and skip a couple of trailers before they watch a movie. In short, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Hmm.... That kinda sounds like the reason most of us keeping using CRT, eh?
SC |
Perhaps, but I also have been chased away by the average theater-goer the last few times I tried to play that game. I NEVER go on the opening weekend of anything, and simply will not sit for anyone talking or worse through a movie. Now that I'm not living in LA and able to enjoy the professional crowds in Westwood, they can have their $12 ticket prices and over-priced treats. I'll sit at home with a few pints of Guinness stout, and perfect sound and image, every time.
It all depends on what video processing is upscaling that DVD. I only use Faroudja in my studio, but love what Lumagen is doing now. If it is ONLY with a built-in processor, then you are not making an apples/apples comparison. You've allowed the industry to dumb down the old format in favor of the new, which they ALL do. It behooves them to get everyone on board with HDCP-protected HDMI, and I've a philosophical barrier to entry for all of that.
I MAY own a BluRay player soon, and so far the only one that comes even CLOSE to being worth the money is the Oppo. BUT if that will suffer the same sunsetting of analog outputs, and I believe it will, then I refuse to play that game even IF the image improves. Some things I take ethical stances on...strongly. This is one of them, I won't let some execudroid in Hollywood, backed by those mythical attorneys, choose which resolution I watch.
The 5-second accusation that everyone is criminal and forced viewings of trailers are NOTHING compared to the silly-ass firmware updates they are forcing everyone to accommodate. THAT is simply asinine...making individuals think about their equipment when they are attempting entertainment.
It is NOTHING for us techies, but the whole world to those who don't understand this stuff, and that is MOST people. WE'RE the oddballs in this equation, LOL!
Cheers
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Besides, I don't see how simply limiting the projector to a single scan rate (isn't multi-scan one of CRT's advantages touted by CRT advocates?) is going to be a big cost saver... Seems to me multi-scan is a tiny percentage of the overall cost of a projector.
SC |
Forgot to address this...it will bring the cost and complexity of CRT down considerably if it is a single-scan rate at the exact sweet spot of the resonance of the whole system. It may indeed make it more reliable as well.
Plus, it would take the sweet-spot calculation out of the hands of folk who may not know how to do it. If I hadn't had time with the Snell&Wilcox people and Joe Kane when I was in LA with Stereophile Guide to Home Theater, I wouldn't even know such a thing exists. MOST engineers will tell you it is a foolhardy pursuit, but most engineers of audio amplifiers are mystified as to why those Niro and Halcro amps could do what they do, too.
It certainly will make it easier to setup...and there won't be any odd clicking and delays in imagery due the projector switching resolutions, too.
Cheers
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'll tell you what the biggest problem is here. THe modern day consumer has been schooled for the last 20 years to DEMAND something new every 2 years. The average CL person that stops by to buy a computer monitor off me is usually stunned if I have a CRT playing in the shop that is 1/2 assed set up when I tell them it's a 15 year old unit.
Tell someone nowadays that something they're buying today will last 15 years, and they won't want it. The rich can afford to replace their stuff every 2-3 years, and the poor keep buying crap that HAS to be replaced every 2-3 years. It's a no win battle.
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't think tubes were available anymore anyway, right? I thought I read tube glass is no longer being manufactured? If you ask me, if you want to make a stud CRT projector, start with a known chassis and go from there. Your not going to get new lenses made for a CRT projector, your not going to get 3M to make C-elements. Take a Marquee (mainly because parts are plentiful) and start redesigning some of the boards that are weak links to bandwidth, like the VIM and neckboards. Why re-invent the wheel just to get rid of some scan rates and fans? I think you could develop new boards for that chassis and remove some fans much cheaper than starting from scratch and getting a few companies to start up manufacturing lines for products that haven't beem made in years.
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~Paul
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gannon wrote: | | HOW long have they maintained that price? Are they still in production, or are they simply charging to warehouse old 'new-in-box' stock they were forced to build for military contract fulfillment?!) |
Hey Gannon the Marquee is still being built today at VDC
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=23530.html
Photo to prove it
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http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I thought so. So the high cost is likely because of American labor and the fact that they're basically hand-tooling some of those parts...and not a false supporting of the price for market reasons. Curious.
Since the mechanical chassis is already engineered, too, then it wouldn't be worth it to re-do even with lesser materials. I think. It would bear some investigation, though. Overall, I like the way the Electrohome chassis works, although I'd LOVE to slip in the G90s Scheimphlug gearing!
It would basically be buying a 9500LC stripped, and going for a bare-bones approach to power supply and drive electronics...but that would be opening a huge can of worms. That might be incurring costs that are irrecoverable.
So, the whole game might be then changed to simply increasing the overall heat-sinking of the chassis to reduce the amount and noise of the fans from their overkill for 24/7 operation...because I'm betting Mike's mods are the best that can be had for 1080p/60 resonance, although I'd love to see 'em with 1080p/72 with 1080p/24 source material triple-scanned.
Which puts us back at needing at least THAT much variability in the circuitry, but I'm NOT sure what it does to reliability and such...since in my estimation the simpler circuit should have the purest and most consistent resonance. I cannot assume that Electrohome's engineers built the chassis for maximum reliable resonance, since that IS the most elusive of engineering arts.
Like I said, the things I heard through Niro and Halcro amps were one step beyond what most have been able to achieve...but I NEVER got the chance to compare them with what Charlie did over at Ayre and others playing in that league.
I'm basically talking about really uber-tweaking the CRT for a straight-through electron path which would make the entire resonance always beneficial, which would make the thing rock-solid. I would compare what Barco did on that Cine9, because I thought they were able to get that last ounce of perfection even beyond the G90 out of that thing...even considering or wondering if they bent any of the basic laws of physics along the way! The amount of light that chassis could pump out, while maintaining such a focused beam-spot AND wide-tracking grayscale was stunning, even IF it were as large as a Volkswagen and cost five times as much!
To mention this much high-end to the Electrohome engineers would probably be insulting to them, as if we were second-guessing their abilities. Of the three 9-inch chassis I spent a good deal of time with, though, theirs WAS third best. I liked the Barco Cine9 the best, with maybe a nod to the 1209 which preceeded it...then the elegance of some of the industrial design of the G90...but both of those became unavailable to the North American market, and Elecrohome, as we confirmed above, at least still MAKES theirs in North America!
And the 9500 LC is far and away the best thing they've ever done with CRT.
So, we're back to basically justifying it with a Lumagen processor and a Moome card to take the HDMI and convert it. Damn, what did I just spend? With a screen it is an easy $50k.
All the better to do it the way we've already done, as Sparky says, since do it yourselfers can jump on board by upgrading firmware and swapping out Mike's boards. This way, all serious tweaks are satiated...no matter their budget.
And you're right, Curt, we've killed our customer's by shortening their product life expectations...but I buy my hifi (and recommend to others) like I buy my cars, for the duration of their life expectancy. Heck, I'm still holding onto my first-year Windstar...and got nearly 300k miles on that Audi wagon!f
I am SO much NOT a fan of making mountains out of what USED to be called landFILLS. LOL! We've got to temper this dumping of technology...I'll endorse only that which is not disposable. If it ain't fixable, I cannot recommend it.
Cheers, thanks everyone for helping me think through this. I'm going to get that NEC tweaked tonight now. My honey has never SEEN a large screen image the way it will be in a few hours. She is my control-group guinea, if she can appreciate it I know I've done well. She loved it when I calibrated her old 36-inch Sony CRT...and introducing her to a real audio system has renewed MY passion for this stuff.
Sincerely,
John
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
Last edited by Gannon on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, thanks for those pictures. I have forgotten all the shielding in those damn things. LOL.
There is something to be said about running a 24/7 design at idle, and having it shielded enough to contain any errant radiation. If it is good enough to not interfere with a nuclear submarine's circuitry, it won't do anything weird at home.
We must support VDC for as long as they can rephosphor tubes...but boy would I love to get my hands on those 'special' nine-inch tubes with the precise beam-spot adjustments...whoa.
AND if we could get demand up enough for them to actually MAKE a production line, it was ugly for this DEtroit boy to see that hand-assembly rigging. We're all about the assembly line efficiencies up here...heh.
Cheers
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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"I love CRT as much as most here, but the ship sailed."
And it hit a iceberg 
The thought of a new CRT projector isn't new to this or AVS forum. I suggested it years ago and was laughed at.
I was actually thinking of hacking up a Dwin HD500 as it is a EM projector and look at what it would take to drive 9" CRT's
(beef up the HV section) and then see about raising it's bandwidth to make it 1080P worthy.
Bottom line is the bottom line. The cost of R&D and tooling up for at best a real short run would be cost prohibitive.
As much as many here would like to see it, I doubt even one would be willing to fork over even clost to what the MSRP would be.
As far as the digital/crt thing goes.....well crt might be better but digital wasted no time knocking it off the top of the hill.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | "I love CRT as much as most here, but the ship sailed."
And it hit a iceberg
The thought of a new CRT projector isn't new to this or AVS forum. I suggested it years ago and was laughed at.
I was actually thinking of hacking up a Dwin HD500 as it is a EM projector and look at what it would take to drive 9" CRT's
(beef up the HV section) and then see about raising it's bandwidth to make it 1080P worthy.
Bottom line is the bottom line. The cost of R&D and tooling up for at best a real short run would be cost prohibitive.
As much as many here would like to see it, I doubt even one would be willing to fork over even clost to what the MSRP would be.
As far as the digital/crt thing goes.....well crt might be better but digital wasted no time knocking it off the top of the hill. |
Digital did NOTHING of the sort. The manufacturers collectively THREW CRT off the cliff.
Then Digital dragged it's ass halfway to the top.
Then halfway again.
And halfway again.
And if you know the end of THAT analogy, you KNOW it never quite gets there.
As for me? I just swapped the NEC to the top of my triple-stack CRT rack (that I got from a pro shop when they went out-of-business years ago so I could aim three units at the same screen for evaluation purposes...no I never thought to make a coherent image out of them all at once...shut UP, Cliffy, LOL!)...and torqued a muscle moving the Sony 1251Q down to the middle shelf...but realized it is an XG85, not a 75! Yay, me.
Now...I get to aim it straight at the screen with no internal keystoning...so I can fully maximize that raster.
I don't think I'm getting any sleep tonight.
Cheers
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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John I am dissapointed in you. You clearly state the 9500 is superior while I must disagree the G90 is the King of the Hill 
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Heh, no...I said the BARCO Cine9 kicks all their asses. (and somewhat the 1209, too, but the multi-point convergence of that last version was great)
Then the G90.
Then the Electrohome, but since THEY are the only game in North America now...AND they re-phosphor tubes...so we HAVE to support them as fully as we can.
You will, when you need new phosphor for them tubes, LOL!
The G90 has by far and without doubt the BEST 'flapping' or Scheimphlug adjustment...and also the best industrial design.
But unfortunately Sony is a four-letter word. Heh. And they killed it before it's time. Threw it off the cliff, Cliffy.
Lucky you caught a few...
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gadfly and rogue philosopher
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TheVerge
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 928
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:52 am Post subject: |
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If you want to get rid of the fans look at the liquid cooling systems in pc's. Silent.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Build it into the Zalman 500 PC case
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Gannon wrote: |
Plus CRT kills in comparison of basic maintenance costs, if setup conservatively. Calibration is only a bit cheaper with the new stuff, and don't let anyone convince you they don't need it, because they may need it MORE than CRTs...other than the initial convergence. Just going through all the convoluted mis-titled setup menus for proper color space settings to match the level of HDMI source you've got...and analyzing all the arcane band-aids and other discovery takes nearly as long! For instance, one JVC RS25 I setup still had some clipping of peak whites on the INPUT, and if the guy hadn't splurged for the Oppo player with internal video controls, we never would've been able to correct that! The average setup/calibrator might've not even noticed it, because it was in the interval of the test pattern resolution...excepting the gray ramp, which nobody is taught to use for contrast and brightness settings! It was just the top 2 or 3 percent, but enough to destroy the illusion of recreated reality to clouds and snowscapes.
Over ten years, you're looking at at least three bulbs...from $200 to $700 (unless you bought that anything that uses cinema-style $3k bulbs, LOL!) each, so $600 to $2,100 on bulb costs...versus MAYBE a couple hundred for a complicated service call, unless the person insists on a full setup calibration, but even THAT is less than one starting from scratch! LEDs are still largely an unknown, but so far their performance has been quite 'peaky', rendering color a wee bit cartoonish if not precisely adjusted. I teach all my clients to do their drift-convergence, even though I'm sure it costs me return business. I cannot ethically charge full calibration price for a mere touch-up of center drift! (although I have occasionally seen beam-spot focus requiring a tweak once in a while, it would be nice to find a way to measure that remotely)
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I found your comments about the ownership costs to be interesting in that most people think that a prime benefit of Digital PJ's is that they are plug and play. In reality, there is calibration and God forbid if something breaks and is out of waranty getting service can be a nightmare. As Curt pointed out, consumers are being groomed to expect that electronics are consumable items with 2-3 year life spans. As the production and consumption curves continue to ramp up, the support and availability of parts decreases due to outdated designs and corporate marketing (Sony is about the best example of this).
Having said that, CRT is not cheap to maintain. Most owners on this forum have machines that are12-15 years old at this point and will need new or repaired power supplies, caps replaced, board rebuilds and bellow replacement on even the most conservatively driven machines. Real quick the maintenance cost can jump to $2K on a 9" LC PJ. All of this is independent of modding VNB's, VIM's, HDCP stripper, etc.
The bottom line is that one way or the other you are paying. While I clearly prefer a CRT's image, I believe the non debatable advantage of CRT is the availability of parts (at least EHOME) and the ability to display black properly. For the super high end, a properly set up blend will negate the prime advantage of digital (brightness/large screen size) with the aforementioned benefit of black. What would be nice is to see a comparison of a top flight blend vs. a top flight digital w/anamorphic lense. Everything else aside, many people would be surprised to find that they acutally prefer the image from the CRT.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gannon wrote: | Heh, no...I said the BARCO Cine9 kicks all their asses. (and somewhat the 1209, too, but the multi-point convergence of that last version was great)
Then the G90.
Then the Electrohome, but since THEY are the only game in North America now...AND they re-phosphor tubes...so we HAVE to support them as fully as we can.
You will, when you need new phosphor for them tubes, LOL!
The G90 has by far and without doubt the BEST 'flapping' or Scheimphlug adjustment...and also the best industrial design.
But unfortunately Sony is a four-letter word. Heh. And they killed it before it's time. Threw it off the cliff, Cliffy.
Lucky you caught a few... |
Yeah they sure did dump it way too soon for sure. The G90 is no JOKE. I've been told several times both ways when it comes to the G90 vs. the 909 and if it's that negligible I would choose the G90 on design and firmware alone
I would love to see a mix of the XG and G90 firmware blended together for the ultimate CRT projector now that would be the SHITE!!!!!!
Oh, and I'm now down to only two G90's. Art's projector leaves here this Saturday for Japan!
As far as availability though there is a certain Henry that has a WHOLE BUNCH OF G90's NOS that could be commendeared if needed. 
Cliffy
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: |
I would love to see a mix of the XG and G90 firmware blended together for the ultimate CRT projector now that would be the SHITE!!!!!!
Oh, and I'm now down to only two G90's. Art's projector leaves here this Saturday for Japan!
As far as availability though there is a certain Henry that has a WHOLE BUNCH OF G90's NOS that could be commendeared if needed.
Cliffy |
That would be a hot setup...Hell a 9" XG would suit me with maybe a tricked up GUI, with G90 LC housings and Optics....The build quality of a Barco is superb, I could really care less as long as it worked.
Might as well build in a Radiance too with Craig's 3D.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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