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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Back to the original topic. Quick update: he could not find anyone to almost give the Zenith to, so he did in fact give it away free. So, who thought in 2011 that you could not even sell a Cine 8 Onyx in great condition (perfect blue and red and I put in a new green) for a couple hundred bucks?!?!? Yeah, I'm now convinced the market is completely dead.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
1080p/72 is not cheap or easy (from a source perspective) and all 9" PJs will soften up at that rate (8" soften terrible). Many digitals do 1080p/96 without frame interpolation.
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There is NO WAY THAT 72hz is softer than 60hz with 9". Especially on the G90. I dont know who's setup you've seen but it obviously is nothing compared to what I am watching at 72hz right now.
Cliff |
Well Cliff, I guess you have the one "magic G90". IIRC the G90 uses the LM1283 which is a 140 MHz (-3db) bandwidth chip--even though this chip is theoretically the bottle neck in the G90 chain (again IIRC been awhile) I'm not sure you get 140 through the whole chain.
1080p@72 is about 224 MHz. Remember, bandwidth is not the G90 strong suite--focus is. The Cine 9 had a rating of 180 MHz using a 250 MHz chip IIRC, but many do not believe it gets its full 180 either!
So, you may have a magic G90 that can overcome the limitations of its chip set, and indeed physics itself, and run as sharp at 224 MHz as it does at 186 MHz (1080p/60), but you'll understand my skepticism as I don't really believe in unicorns and fairies either. 
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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rosenbush
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Brownsville Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Give me $500 and I'll buy a digital PJ that almost everyone will prefer to anything but the best CRT. And even then, I bet I can I can still have more than 50% prefering the $500 digital to a well set up G90 |
But we'll miss the fun! Mods, Convergence, focus, high voltages, all of that. To me is like make your own boat and make it float.
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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"""IIRC - If I Recall Correctly. Especially common to be used when trying to cover up a vague guess, or when you are truly befuddled and trying ..."""
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, why do you even bother coming here, espousing the virtues of digital? You're happy, your friend is happy, you got pieces of sh*t CRT projectors out of your house. Great! Lovely!
So why do you post here, crapping on everyone that has a CRT and is enjoying it?
Heck, there's a digital forum here even, go over there and post to your heart's content.
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JamesAB
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 56
Location: New Hampshire
TV/Projector: Marquee 8000
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I put in an Electrohome Marquee 8000 in my own home several years ago. Now I'm thinking this is the perfect time to upgrade to a 9500LC.
Am I crazy?
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| JamesAB wrote: | I put in an Electrohome Marquee 8000 in my own home several years ago. Now I'm thinking this is the perfect time to upgrade to a 9500LC.
Am I crazy? |
Hell no. No matter how "Good" digital has become it will never be CRT smooth or film like from the digitals I've seen. Buying a 9" inch machine now is perfect timing the prices are low,and the parts are easy to get and cheap.
Go for it.
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Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | 1080p@72 is about 224 MHz. Remember, bandwidth is not the G90 strong suite--focus is. The Cine 9 had a rating of 180 MHz using a 250 MHz chip IIRC, but many do not believe it gets its full 180 either! |
Except 1080p/72 isn't 224Mhz, Dave... It's more like 180Mhz... The only way it's 224 is if you use the good old "Extron tells us we need to divide the pixel clock by 2 and multiply by 3 so we'll have to buy their more expensive switchers and not anything from the competition.
Now, yeah... The video amps in the G90 might only handle 140mhz worth of bandwidth (I don't know if that's true or not), but the G90 is still plenty sharp running 1080p/72. Not quite as sharp as at 60hz perhaps, and definitely not as sharp as a digital, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Reproducing a perfect square wave on-screen is not necessary because we're watching video content - not test patterns.
SC
Last edited by ecrabb on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | overclkr wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
1080p/72 is not cheap or easy (from a source perspective) and all 9" PJs will soften up at that rate (8" soften terrible). Many digitals do 1080p/96 without frame interpolation.
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There is NO WAY THAT 72hz is softer than 60hz with 9". Especially on the G90. I dont know who's setup you've seen but it obviously is nothing compared to what I am watching at 72hz right now.
Cliff |
Well Cliff, I guess you have the one "magic G90". IIRC the G90 uses the LM1283 which is a 140 MHz (-3db) bandwidth chip--even though this chip is theoretically the bottle neck in the G90 chain (again IIRC been awhile) I'm not sure you get 140 through the whole chain.
1080p@72 is about 224 MHz. Remember, bandwidth is not the G90 strong suite--focus is. The Cine 9 had a rating of 180 MHz using a 250 MHz chip IIRC, but many do not believe it gets its full 180 either!
So, you may have a magic G90 that can overcome the limitations of its chip set, and indeed physics itself, and run as sharp at 224 MHz as it does at 186 MHz (1080p/60), but you'll understand my skepticism as I don't really believe in unicorns and fairies either. |
240? Where did you get that figure from? That is so far from correct it isn't even funny.
Also, why do you say anyone (even with the gamma mod) doing FFTB is either crushing blacks? I believe Darin calibrated a G70 with gamma mods and said the on/off cr was way over 100k to 1.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Well, the intent of this was not really a "CRTs are grrrrreat!" or anything like that. I guess it was more flabbergasted on just how fast it died-- |
You state high end CRT isn’t analogous to the audiophile experience of high end turntables because audiophiles only really like the high end turntables because they like tinkering around with the equipment and they only really prefer LPs to CD because of the distortion.
Wow. How did you get involved in CRT, interact on CRT forums, and somehow miss the aspect enjoyed by CRT enthusiasts that specifically revolves around tinkering with the equipment? Also, the distortion of LP playback is complex and highly euphonic. Spinning vinyl is fun and it sounds good in absolute performance terms. The distortion also sounds good. As Duke Ellington used to say: “If it sounds good, it IS good.”
It’s interesting that you dismiss this exercise of personal preference then repeatedly assert that CRT is dead because you claim most people prefer a cheap digital projector image to that of a high end CRT. Is this really your argument why CRT isn’t or won’t be analogous to high end turntables – that people’s preference of cheap digital projection is valid but the audiophile’s preference for high end turntables isn’t?
You lost me. If one reason why CRT guys stick with it is because they prefer its distortion over what digital projectors produce, doesn’t that support my idea that CRT is analogous to high end turntables?
Mixed in with this confusing point of yours were your observations that record playback is high distortion, that late generation records use digital masters and are eq’d to compensate for freq response variations and it’s increasingly hard to sell high end digital because commodity digital has gotten so good and “bits are bits.”
Apparently we all need to be informed that record playback has lots of distortion and that turntable audiophiles are listening to digital masters anyway. And it’s always been the case that the market for high end digital is small because commodity equipment is so good. The reason the high end stuff exists in the first place is precisely to overcome the limitations of the commodity stuff and this small quality increment always comes at a high price. It was the case 25 years ago and remains the case today.
“Bits are bits.” Indeed. All DACs are created equally. And all the analog buffers in equipment are perfect. All you have to do is hold the word length at 16 bits and move the sampling frequency up to 96KHz to hear an improvement, yet 16/44 was supposed to be enough. Or induce varying degrees of jitter from clock errors. Or have correction taking place from read errors. Or have different dither spectrum. But you are certainly right: The bits stayed bits.
Remember back in the early 90s when audiophiles claimed that burned CDs dubbed from the factory originals sounded better? “Hogwash! Bits are bits,” stated the “experts.” They were wrong. They do sound better and there are straightforward technical reasons for this.
What we need to appreciate, and I think you probably already do, is that the distortion from record playback is very complex. The encoded signal is fully integrated into the distortion present. It is analog, and the spectrum of this distortion is natural. Unlike digital, the encoded signal can be detected way, way down into the analog noise floor. The way fidelity of the encoded analog signal tracks magnitude is completely different than the way it works in digital, which has its resolution go down exponentially as you approach the artificial dithered noise floor.
Finally you state: “No, I see no hope for CRT to become the turntables of projection” because “the industry isn’t trying to cash in on making CRTs “high end” like turntables.
I remember at a CES in the late 98/99 and seeing an MP9 stack in the Wilson Audio exhibit. They had about $250K worth of front end driving that stack, and the image was simply flabbergasting.
News for you: 9” CRT is already “high end.” I’m using “high end” as an objective description. Consumer preference and market forces don’t change this absolute.
Your other arguments:
“Pixel/Scan Rate agnostic is irrelevant now.”
Not from what I’ve read about next gen resolution spaces. And SD DVD still looks better at 960X1440, not jammed into the 1920X1080 space, no matter how good you think those scaling algorithms have become. Sorry.
“No expert prefers the soft image of CRT to the best digital.”
Many pro-audio experts prefer waveform crushing CD horns to low distortion conical waveguides. And? Even if Joe Kane and Guy Kuo (or whoever these experts are according to you) prefer some xyz disposable digital device, why do I give a sh*t?
“The land-fill argument is “specious.”
Keep telling yourself that. Especially when the landfill device you are currently using craps out and can’t be repaired. Meanwhile, I’ll still have 15,000 hours left on my MP9. Which I can repair. For at least the next 25 years.
“Most people prefer a $500 digital to the best CRT.” This is a recurring theme in your assertion that CRT is dead.
And most people prefer listening to music in MP3 (or worse) format over computer speakers. Most people clearly prefer chemically loaded or GMO food to wholesome natural food. Most people pay to have 1000 TV channels of sh*t. And personal “devices” that interfere with real socialization. Most people prefer NASCAR to F1. As far as I can tell, most consumers simply buy whatever stupid sh*t is marketed to them.
But yeah, deferring to the wisdom of most people, AKA, consumers, sure is a persuasive argument. Because “most” people prefer something different than I do, I should go with their preference.
Run along, Dave. You are noting but a troll now on this forum. You bring absolutely nothing to this hobby. Enjoy that digital projector, too. I mean that very sincerely.
Steve
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Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: |
You state high end CRT isn’t analogous to the audiophile experience of high end turntables because audiophiles only really like the high end turntables because they like tinkering around with the equipment and they only really prefer LPs to CD because of the distortion.
Wow. How did you get involved in CRT, interact on CRT forums, and somehow miss the aspect enjoyed by CRT enthusiasts that specifically revolves around tinkering with the equipment?
Run along, Dave. You are noting but a troll now on this forum. You bring absolutely nothing to this hobby. Enjoy that digital projector, too. I mean that very sincerely.
Steve |
Thumbs up, well stated. 
FWIW, I sold 5 projectors this past week. Yep, I slaughtered the pricing on all of them, but it shows that there are still people buying and tweaking them.
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Nicely put !!!
My thoughts exactly - if I ever had thoughts so well organized and articulate!
G
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry guys, I love CRT but...
The natural order of evolution dictates that for a new species to flurish, something must go. It's not a matter of what but when. You are only fighting the enevitable. Dumping boatloads of cash into a sinking ship (in this case the engines have already gone under) is a waste of money. I say enjoy what you now have, burn up those tubes and move on.
I for one will not, for a fourth time, re-tube or replace with another CRT. IT's time has past and I realize that.
I knew the second I finished redoing the living room, bringing it into the digital age that my theaters analog days were numbered.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Chip, I agree with you in the sense that a typical CRT projector has a lifespan of about 20 years. Past that, and you get age related failures, as I've seen for a while with Sony 10XX, Barco 400, 600, etc. HEck, even if I were to sell a Barco 800, I'd have to do a few hours of reworking of the boards, and even then I'm not guaranteed that something else will fail, as in a modded BArco 800 SMPS I sold not long ago.
But... look at your very statement that you've retubed 4 times (!!). You're either really unlucky (one tube shattered, right?), or you watch your CRT one hell of a lot. I think the most I ever retubed a sports bar Zenith was 3 times.. Given the amount of hours you've put on your set(s), I could be wrong, but I think any replacement digital will cost you way more per hour to run, and very few chassis will last 4 bulb lives.
Other than Tim and myself maybe, I don't think many CRTs will be around in 2020, let alone later than that, although it could be argued that the late model 9500 Ultras and maybe some Barco 909 sets will still be running. Seems like a bunch of the later sets like the Marquee chassis are better made than earlier sets overall, so I'd say that a bunch of sets will be struck by 'unobtanium' parts like the G90 over repetitive failures of the same chassis.
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Curtpalme wrote: | | FWIW, I sold 5 projectors this past week. Yep, I slaughtered the pricing on all of them, but it shows that there are still people buying |
What were they? Mostly 8"or 9"?
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Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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A Rogers
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 133
Location: Toronto On
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I might be alone on this but, as much as a enjoy the picture of and the tweaking aspects of the crt projector. One of the reasons I bought mine was that it was very cost effective. I sold my digital with 3k hours on the lamp (still working well) and bought my Runco with the proceeds. Basically I traded a high hour 1024x768 digital for a low hour HD capable projector. While I imagine running a 9" set it much more costly, the 7" sets are by far the biggest bang for your buck as far as displays go. Keep in mind that if I had bought a new tv for the same money I would be using a cheap 22" screen of the same resolution. That said, I would buy cheaper (<250) machines every other month given the opportunity and I know that I'm not alone. I do not think that "this" market will go away any time soon.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The only way you get really dark blacks with a CRT even with gamma mods is by crushing black. If you don't crush the hell out of blacks, you have worse blacks than current JVC projectors. |
Dave, you must be doing something wrong. Especially with the gamma/grayscale adjustment capability now available with the Lumagen, Duo and VideoEq at up to 21 points, you can truly have absolute blacks with no crush what-so-ever.
| Quote: | | 1080p/72 is not cheap or easy (from a source perspective) and all 9" PJs will soften up at that rate (8" soften terrible). |
The "softening" you speak of is a bandwidth issue in the video signal chain. Since most all 8" and 9" models of the same manufacturer use the same circuitry, there is no difference between the two.
Lets discuss which technology has the greatest potential for picture quality. Remember that virtually ALL R&D on analog displays was stopped almost 2 decades ago when there wasn't a single analog projector ever designed for HD theater use.
Do you really think that the switch to digital was made because the picture quality could be better with digital? I don't think so. The reason was because digital displays could be made cheaper and they would be much easier to set up. Total sales volume would be much better with much higher profits. It has nothing to do with quality.
I once heard a wise marketing guru state that "no one ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the consuming public".
Now let us just pretend that instead of all R&D stopping on crt's, it continued at about 1/100 of the amount spent on digital.
I say that we would now have analog projectors with tubes with a 1.78 AR that had improved phosfur (sp?) to create a finer beam spot size and a video circuit chain that was -3db at 500Mhz. It would also have digitally controlled automatic convergence and focus so as to make it much easier to set up, etc.,etc.
Would it cost more than todays digitals - Absolutely.
Would it have a better picture quality than todays digitals - Absolutely.
I CHEATED - I went the blended route with 2 XGLC's. The result is the combined raster usage uses the full height of the tube - I have three times the light output of a single projector.
And guess what else - While ending up with full HD resolution at a smooth 72Hz refresh rate, each projector sees only an 85.249Mhz pixel clock frequency. My ANSI is better than a JVC!
Last summer I set up a R2S for someone, and when done was very pleased. Both I and the new proud owner of the JVC came back to my house to see what the same Bluray disc we just watched looked like on my "larger screen" blend.
Both of us agreed it was "no contest".
Bob
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | | Curtpalme wrote: | | FWIW, I sold 5 projectors this past week. Yep, I slaughtered the pricing on all of them, but it shows that there are still people buying |
What were they? Mostly 8"or 9"? |
ECP 3500
NEC XG110
Runco 991
Ampro 4600
Technically the sale on the DWIN 700 is still pending.
I also had a customer bring over an ECP 4101 that he dropped while taking it off the ceiling. I tweaked the set, repaired the lens, reset the focus, advised him to use it as is, as I am out of SD187 green tubes. His had fungus, but not terribly so. I sold the set about 5 years ago with an NEC line doubler. No problems really save for some tuning, and he's off and running again for $50. He's put about 2500 hours on the set in the last 5 years we guessed, minimal wear on the tubes, the chassis is solid.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Oh good, someone bought that 4600. That saved me a grand 
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CRT.
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