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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | To me the technology of CRT is as valid as it ever was. Pixel/scan rate agnostic, and with the best 9" sets, stellar performance. Yes, I know the best digitals are better in just about any way now. Who cares. You don't get something for nothing (5 year old digitals are just expensive consumer landfill), but if the mass migration to digitals makes the advanced technology of a 9" LC set cheaper, it makes this amazing stuff even more affordable.
I compare CRT to LP turntables. The high-end ones. You can argue all you want about how digital (especially 24bit/96KHz and higher) runs circles around the lowly LP, but there is a certain set of qualities about the whole record playing experience that are not satisfied by digital. And just as there are high-end turntables, there will be high end CRTs. For a while longer, at least. |
Couldn't agree more. I have run this arugement many times.  |
I also agree!!! love both LP's and CRT!! I still haven't hooked up my HH Scott Tube amp yet. 
Athanasios
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou wrote: | | I still haven't hooked up my HH Scott Tube amp yet. |
Yes but you did take pictures of it, took the top off and cleaned it. That's where your real enjoyment comes from anyway, just admit it, we're here for you.
Say the the words
Hi I'm Nashou I'm a electronics addict
Group response
Hi Nashou 
Really though, I fit in the 2&3 categories MC86 posted I hate something that can't be repaired and the massive part just makes me think built to last.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
I also agree!!! love both LP's and CRT!!
Athanasios |
Ya better throw in reel to reels in that equation, at least for me, anyways.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: |
I also agree!!! love both LP's and CRT!!
Athanasios |
Ya better throw in reel to reels in that equation, at least for me, anyways. |
I don't own what yet, but I might have to get one now....... thanks!!!
Athanasios |
Yeah you need to hear a 30ips reel to reel even a 15ips is great too.
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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ralpharch
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 211
Location: Derwood
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: Re: CRT Market? |
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| Person99 wrote: | Hey Guys, I've not been running around these parts lately, so wanted to ping the CRT intelligentsia.
I talked with the neighbor that bought my lovely Zenith Pro 1200X (the old timers know of my love for that machine) and he has moved on and has been trying to almost give the thing away for awhile now with no luck. I'm both surprised and not surprised as I assumed the market was going this way, but for the price he was seeking, I'm shocked he got no takers. So, that piqued my interest in the CRT market again.
So, couple questions:
1) Is the market for selling a whole CRT all but gone except for maybe a few sold with support (from someone like Curt)? If so, is it that interest is dead, or so small that the shipping cost kills the deal?
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I ended up paying $15 in sales charge when my 81110+ sold locally for rock bottom $125 - it even came with the magnets and boards to change into a 8500, and the buyer never came to pick it up or pay. I had to list it with an intermittent horizontal sync problem so all value was gone and I knew it. But figured I would let someone have it to play with instead of taking for recycling since it was working most of the time. Couldn't really part out not knowing what was causing the intermittent problem.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yeah you need to hear a 30ips reel to reel even a 15ips is great too. |
Absolutely - could not agree more!
I am the proud owner or 5 full seasons of a major US city's symphony concerts. All are the original master tapes recorded on a professional Ampex tube recorder at 1/2 track 30ips.
Have not listened to them in years, but just last week pulled my old Otari MX5050 out of storage and cleaned it up. Only thing it needs is a new capstan belt. Haven't found one yet, but still looking. You wouldn't happen to have one would you Curt?
BTW, about half of the reels were recorded using DBX noise reduction - Anyone old enough to remember that?
Bob
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Boilermaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Yeah you need to hear a 30ips reel to reel even a 15ips is great too. |
Absolutely - could not agree more!
I am the proud owner or 5 full seasons of a major US city's symphony concerts. All are the original master tapes recorded on a professional Ampex tube recorder at 1/2 track 30ips.
Have not listened to them in years, but just last week pulled my old Otari MX5050 out of storage and cleaned it up. Only thing it needs is a new capstan belt. Haven't found one yet, but still looking. You wouldn't happen to have one would you Curt?
BTW, about half of the reels were recorded using DBX noise reduction - Anyone old enough to remember that?
Bob |
Bob. I remember DBX noise reduction. Did you know it's still in use today? It's the standard noise reduction used for analog stereo broadcast over regular TV. AKA MTS - Multi-channel Television Sound
GM also offered it in their 1980's/early 90's vehicles with the high end tape decks.
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Boilermaker wrote: | | BTW, about half of the reels were recorded using DBX noise reduction - Anyone old enough to remember that? |
Sigh. I'm old enough to remember when they introduced Dolby B, and I was a geeky-enough kid to be aware of Dolby A even before that...
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Damn - You guys are older than I thought, and I thought I was the only old fart here!
Yes - I remember the GM cars having DBX, but I never knew that it was used it analog TV broadcast. That means there must have been a chip in the radios to "re-expand" the signal. My DBX unit is as big as a BD player, but was obviously made using discrete components.
Bob
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Boilermaker"] | Quote: |
Have not listened to them in years, but just last week pulled my old Otari MX5050 out of storage and cleaned it up. Only thing it needs is a new capstan belt. Haven't found one yet, but still looking. You wouldn't happen to have one would you Curt?
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No, I only buy belts to order, but eBay has every belt imaginable. MEasure the length and search that way, not for the deck model, although the 5050 should have spare parts on eBay as well.
To me it was originally all about the length of time that I could play music without having to get up. RTR back in the day (1978 when I bought my first Akai GX630 new in the box for $1000 in Grade 10). I knew enough about audio knowing record changers were a really bad thing to do, and cassettes weren't as good as RTR.
So I bought the Akai, used it to death (still have it, it still works perfectly), and started collecting 10" reels. THen I realized that I wasn't sacrificing too much by going from 7 1/2 IPS to 3 3/4, so I started making mix tapes. 3 hours out of a 3600' 10" reel.
I hit the jackpot when the radio station that was working in the basement of the hotel my dad worked at moved out. I got probably 50 10" reels and about 100 7" ones, and was in heaven.
Now I'm slowly working towards burning all my original RTR tapes to CD via a high end HHB burner, as the tapes are slowly losing their oxide. I'm dumping the worst of the tapes on eBay, and am keeping the ones that are barely shedding.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Curt - Thanks for the advice on my belt - Otari America won't even respond to e-mails!
| Quote: | | Now I'm slowly working towards burning all my original RTR tapes to CD via a high end HHB burner, as the tapes are slowly losing their oxide. I'm dumping the worst of the tapes on eBay, and am keeping the ones that are barely shedding. |
I want to do the same thing with my stack of master tapes. Problem is that I'm an analog guy and not very knowledgable about the best way to do this. I want to have at least 24/96 so that probably means I need to burn a dvd or bd. I think I need to find a computer nerd.
Bob
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Call me a die-hard.
I also just got back into LPs in a major way.
My main HD set is a classic 30-inch tube from Princeton Graphics branded by Unity Motion, and the main projector is an NEC XG85. I'll be adding one of the HDMI cards from this manufacturing run as soon as I can free up the cash for it, too.
I get way more enjoyment out of CRTs than anything out there today. Way more.
The 'fatigue factor' with analog audio and CRT video is near nothing, which allows the 'glee factor' a better launch.
Of course, I'm a tweak for BOTH turntable AND CRT setup...having been in the industry since 1981...so the maintenance is FUN for me.
Sigh. I weep for the current state of the industry. Plug-n-Play doesn't ever deliver that promise, and the digital approximation remains merely that...still halfway to convincing. At least with the analog stuff there is a tug on my soul...I simply cannot achieve that with anything new.
Call me a fogie...and I'll be grinning and enjoying my hifi right back atcha!
Cheers,
John
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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John - Good to see you back here!
You probably don't remember, but we had a very long phone conversation a number of years ago about WHY digital video was not as pleasing as analog. I was on my way back home from a trip to Tim's to see his first blend setup, which totally hooked me!
As a result,I'm running a pair of XG110LC's in a 10-1/2' wide 2.35 blend using TVOne's blend boxes.
| Quote: | | My main HD set is a classic 30-inch tube from Princeton Graphics branded by Unity Motion |
Got the same thing on e-bay more than 10 years ago! Glad to see you back - keep posting!
Bob
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Gannon
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 164
Location: Detroit or the Interstates
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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<jealous!>
So much has gone on in the past five years, that I'm STILL in shock.
I barely remember things I wrote down, which I had to start time/date stamping after a while, LOL.
Luckily, forums also date stamp automatically...but glad you went with your instinct.
I DO think the blended widescreen is the most efficient use of phosphor, since you can get so much height use out of each.
Plus, the projectors can just loaf along...as opposed to screaming back and forth for the entire retrace when using only one for the entire image.
I've always been a fan of Tim's getups...I've just never been able to make the jump, price-wise.
Now that the processor is half of what it used to be, and it is very likely BETTER than before...for anyone considering a $15k projector purchase for 2.35 fixed-height...or even 2.55...it is better than getting a fixed-pixel projector that you're having bulb issues every other year or so.
I'm just not a fan of bulbs...and a great fan of real blacks.
Heck, for ME? CRT has ALWAYS been 3dTV...only with DEPTH, not the false parallax-eye-crossing sensory-disturbing stuff they force you to spend $150 per person for now.
Am I a bit biased? Yes. And there is a pun in there somewhere...
Cheers!
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the intent of this was not really a "CRTs are grrrrreat!" or anything like that. I guess it was more flabbergasted on just how fast it died--thought there would be a few more "die hards". For instance, I still see posts here about ECPs and such--WTF? It is insane to spend 30 seconds on one of those. You get a good 8" LC set for like $500 or less. YOu can get 720p digitals that simply slam the ECP also, but that is a different topic.
I guess my point was, I thought there would be a few ES set owners that would want to upgrade to a top quality 8" LC set but there are none. I think for all intents and purposes their dead.
But, to comment on some other things brought up in the thread:
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | I compare CRT to LP turntables. The high-end ones. You can argue all you want about how digital (especially 24bit/96KHz and higher) runs circles around the lowly LP, but there is a certain set of qualities about the whole record playing experience that are not satisfied by digital. And just as there are high-end turntables, there will be high end CRTs. For a while longer, at least. |
This is one of the more interesting things in this thread. If you search back a year or two on this forum, I was one hypothesizing that this was the only possible future for CRT. However, I don't think this is or will ever be the case. Here is why:
80-90% of the people that like turntables now like it because it is "cool". They are driven by the "audiophiles" making it cool and telling them to be cool they should like them. Further, companies want to make money. It is getting harder and harder to sell super high end digital playback equipment as the DACs even at the low end are darn good and bits are bits. Turntables and cartridges are still able to more effectively push the ridiculous price high end.
Now, there are sonic and experiential differences in listening to an LP. If you go buy a record made in the last (almost) decade, it was recorded digitally at 24/48 or 24/96. It is then EQed for vinyl (because vinyl's frequency response is anything but flat!) and converted to analog to press to vinyl. Vinyl by definition is a less accurate reprsentation because it introduces distortion (mechanical noise, surface noise, even difference is performance between grooves near the center and grooves at the edge). However, some people like this distortion--they find the less accurate representation to be more pleasing to the ear. Secondly, the experience is more fun than just slipping a 5" disc in a tray--with vinyl it is more of a "production" and you get to fondle that big 12" sleeve while you listen.
So, back to CRT. Here is the problem--none of these are true for CRT. There are pretty much no "videophiles" pushing CRT. In video, accuracy of presentation accross a spectrum of parameters has always been the goal. And even modestly priced digitals now spank CRTs in every category--not to mention some of CRTs "strengths" such as black level are frequently misrepresented by the CRT lovers as better than it really is.
In other words, VERY VERY few people (and no "industry experts") prefer the "distortion" of the image (softer, terrible ANSI CR, etc) the CRT produces. So it won't be pushed on that side.
The industry is not pushing it because no one is trying to cash in on making CRTs "high end" like turn tables.
Lastly, you don't have the experietial difference, with both digital and CRT, you put in a blu-ray and sit down to watch.
No, I see no hope for CRT to become the turntables of projection.
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | To me the technology of CRT is as valid as it ever was. Pixel/scan rate agnostic, and with the best 9" sets, stellar performance. |
You are a bit flawed here. CRT is actually less valid in the current market--here's why:
Pixel/scan rate agnostic is of no real benefit now. You only care about 2 scan rates: 50/60 (depending upon country) and a multiple of 24. Digitals all handle this now--in fact they handle it better than CRTs. 1080p/48 is horrible to watch on a CRT and 1080p/72 is not cheap or easy (from a source perspective) and all 9" PJs will soften up at that rate (8" soften terrible). Many digitals do 1080p/96 without frame interpolation.
Pixel agnostic is also pointless these days. The majority of what most watch is 1080 so changing to another resolution is pretty much pointless. There was a day that you could argue that doing 960 for DVD was great--however, the scaling algorithms have gotten quite good for 480i -> 1080 so this is of no value. Also, compound that with the fact that something like <10% of what I watch on the projector is SD and I know this is typical for my friends also.
You also forget the expense and difficulty of a 2.35:1 set up of any decent size. I have a two row theater with a 9.5' wide screen in it now--not atypical for a "movie enthusiast" these days. That is impractical without the hassle and considerable expense with a CRT (picture WAAAAAY too damn dim). I know I would never go back to a 16:9 based set up!
| mr_ro_co wrote: | | Yes, I know the best digitals are better in just about any way now. Who cares. You don't get something for nothing (5 year old digitals are just expensive consumer landfill) |
Um someone who loves movies cares that they can get a better picture for a reasonable price!
The landfill argument is specious. As with any emerging technology, there is a huge curve--things start expensive and not good and they quickly get inexpensive and good. 5 years ago a CRT you picked up for $2500 held its own quite well against a $12000 digital. But this is not the case anymore. The state of the technology 5 years ago has no bearing on today.
This is not the case now. Give me $500 and I'll buy a digital PJ that almost everyone will prefer to anything but the best CRT. And even then, I bet I can I can still have more than 50% prefering the $500 digital to a well set up G90 (and I have seen immaculately set up G90s). And I will actually do that by buying 4-5 year old technology!! 
| papalek wrote: | | "A few hours per week" well I can tell you that I have at least one of my CRT projectors running for total of about 4 hours a daybetween the 3 of them. |
I think this is pretty typical for people with dedicated theaters--you watch 1-4 movies per week so 2-8 hours per week, prolly averages 3-4. I pretty much only watch movies in my theater. I have NO desire to have a projector as my "TV" nor do I want to watch sitcoms in my theater. I'm perfectly content with a large plasma as my "family room TV" for typical evening non-critical viewintg. Even if I had a combo room, I would have both in there. However, if a PJ is going to be your main TV, then it is quite possible for a CRT to be more cost effective.
| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | But I do agree on the boat--I still can't believe anyone buys those to putt around on a lake!
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I take it you guys have never owned boats or don't live in an area surrounded with lakes? |
I live in an area with TONS of man-made lakes. I can get to one large one in 5 minutes and one very large one in 15. Sitting on a boat with friends is not much different that sitting at a park or the back porch. And if you want to do activities, for the amount one is likely to do it you can rent a boat. A ski boat with equipment for half a day is $300 around here. Not much for a few times a year. I will NEVER understand the boat thing!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Gannon wrote: |
Now that the processor is half of what it used to be, and it is very likely BETTER than before...for anyone considering a $15k projector purchase for 2.35 fixed-height...or even 2.55...it is better than getting a fixed-pixel projector that you're having bulb issues every other year or so.
I'm just not a fan of bulbs...and a great fan of real blacks. |
You should like what you like and that is cool. If CRT is it for you, that is great. But this is quite inaccurate--you should not have to justify you tastes with misinformation.
$15K?!?!? YOu don't have to spend that to get a nice CIH set up!!! You can do a pretty damn good CIH set up for less than half that! Hell, you can do one that would knock most peoples socks off for <$3000. I did mine for $2600 3 years ago and everyone that has seen my set up prefers it to my old CRT set up!
Man, I can't believe some people are still flogging the bulb thing! 3 years and no bulb for me. When I need one it is a massive $140--oh god, how will I ever afford that?.
If you are a fan of real blacks, that you'll likely be wanting to move off CRT now. The only way you get really dark blacks with a CRT even with gamma mods is by crushing black. If you don't crush the hell out of blacks, you have worse blacks than current JVC projectors. You can pick up an RS2 with native (no iris) 30:000:1 on/off (way better than a non-black crushing CRT) for <$3000 now--oh but you better save up for the bulbs, they are a whopping $147. An anamorphic lens will set you back between $500-$3000 depending on how "perfect" you have to have the edges of the picture (I have a lower priced lens really well set up and not one person that is not looking for it has noticed the SMALL blue fringing at the very edges of the screen).
Heck, I have a lowly 3100:1 on/off projector in my theater now (but a glorious 647:1 ANSI CR--talk about "pop"), and its full screen black is not THAT much "grayer" than my CRTs was (gamma mods and calibrated to not crush black at all). My full black is still better than any commercial theater on the planet.
If you like CRT cool. If you want the expense and hassle of a 9" blend set up--more power to you if that floats your boat. But there is no reason to misrepresent--you can spend <$5K and have a CIH set up with better blacks and a picture pretty much everyone would prefer.
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Gannon wrote: |
Now that the processor is half of what it used to be, and it is very likely BETTER than before...for anyone considering a $15k projector purchase for 2.35 fixed-height...or even 2.55...it is better than getting a fixed-pixel projector that you're having bulb issues every other year or so.
I'm just not a fan of bulbs...and a great fan of real blacks. |
You should like what you like and that is cool. If CRT is it for you, that is great. But this is quite inaccurate--you should not have to justify you tastes with misinformation.
$15K?!?!? YOu don't have to spend that to get a nice CIH set up!!! You can do a pretty damn good CIH set up for less than half that! Hell, you can do one that would knock most peoples socks off for <$3000. I did mine for $2600 3 years ago and everyone that has seen my set up prefers it to my old CRT set up!
Man, I can't believe some people are still flogging the bulb thing! 3 years and no bulb for me. When I need one it is a massive $140--oh god, how will I ever afford that?.
If you are a fan of real blacks, that you'll likely be wanting to move off CRT now. The only way you get really dark blacks with a CRT even with gamma mods is by crushing black. If you don't crush the hell out of blacks, you have worse blacks than current JVC projectors. You can pick up an RS2 with native (no iris) 30:000:1 on/off (way better than a non-black crushing CRT) for <$3000 now--oh but you better save up for the bulbs, they are a whopping $147. An anamorphic lens will set you back between $500-$3000 depending on how "perfect" you have to have the edges of the picture (I have a lower priced lens really well set up and not one person that is not looking for it has noticed the SMALL blue fringing at the very edges of the screen).
Heck, I have a lowly 3100:1 on/off projector in my theater now (but a glorious 647:1 ANSI CR--talk about "pop"), and its full screen black is not THAT much "grayer" than my CRTs was (gamma mods and calibrated to not crush black at all). My full black is still better than any commercial theater on the planet.
If you like CRT cool. If you want the expense and hassle of a 9" blend set up--more power to you if that floats your boat. But there is no reason to misrepresent--you can spend <$5K and have a CIH set up with better blacks and a picture pretty much everyone would prefer. |
Exactly
It is as you say "what ever floats your boat" and I believe the Digital v CRT comparison or debate is just not relevant any more. They are just different and its a matter of which you happen to prefer.
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | ... and you get to fondle that big 12" sleeve while you listen. |
I can do that listening to a CD too! Sorry, I couldn't resist.  
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
1080p/72 is not cheap or easy (from a source perspective) and all 9" PJs will soften up at that rate (8" soften terrible). Many digitals do 1080p/96 without frame interpolation.
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There is NO WAY THAT 72hz is softer than 60hz with 9". Especially on the G90. I dont know who's setup you've seen but it obviously is nothing compared to what I am watching at 72hz right now.
Cliff
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