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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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actually I do not have any voltage drop, I think adding dedicated circuits will be fine and I will use my current power conditioners. I just wanted to make sure I have clean power and these systems last a long time so I don't mind spending some money on it if it would help but I guess I don't need it.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Correction - rwallmow is the one with the voltage drop problem, not virusc.
Bob
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Nashou66.
Questions.
Do they make any physical noise?(hum). And I assume they are always on and use some power. Is it excessive?
Also, I will have 3 circuits for projector, Equipment rack, audio amps. Do I need 3 or can I skip one or 2?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Mine hums, but its in another room so i never hear it while in the theater. it's actually in my equipment room which is connected to my workshop so I hear it while working on my PJ's. But you could build a hush box around it and maybe use a computer fan to cool the hush box as it also gets warm.
If you get a 5kv amp it will run an entire panel box. Mine provides 41 amps!! More than I'll ever need.
The smaller one that plugs in(medical grade) doesnt hum load at all. i never really noticed it but it is in the same area as the main Power unit(5Kv transformer). I love that thing its like i have my own power station for the Theater. Nothing gets through it.
The only power it will use if you have any draw on it. like the equipment connected to it.
Athanasios
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Na na nana na, Athan got a hummer 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Balanced power useful or not (I'm going to go with 'not', since somehow the guys who made $40,000 projectors didn't think it was required), buying anything from Monster is feeding pure evil. Those guys are absolute and utter bastards - liars, swindlers, and lawsuit-happy bullies. I'd rather donate to the Sinaloa cartel than give money to Monster.
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rwallmow
Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 29
Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | Balanced power useful or not (I'm going to go with 'not', since somehow the guys who made $40,000 projectors didn't think it was required), buying anything from Monster is feeding pure evil. Those guys are absolute and utter bastards - liars, swindlers, and lawsuit-happy bullies. I'd rather donate to the Sinaloa cartel than give money to Monster. |
Agreed on Monster, I am thinking along the lines of http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SU750XL-Extended-Runtime/dp/B000HVRQL8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1288791932&sr=8-1-catcorr (clicked through Curt's amazon link of course) Or maybe something by Liebert, something by someone who's known for quality power products.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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In a previous life when I was young, I designed some mainframe UPS systems, and Liebert was at the head of the class. Long time ago and I don't know if that reputation has changed. The Tripp-Lite you showed looks fine, however.
Bob
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | Balanced power useful or not (I'm going to go with 'not', since somehow the guys who made $40,000 projectors didn't think it was required), buying anything from Monster is feeding pure evil. Those guys are absolute and utter bastards - liars, swindlers, and lawsuit-happy bullies. I'd rather donate to the Sinaloa cartel than give money to Monster. |
Thats one way of looking at it but you know computer companies produce equipment such as servers that can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and they do require a UPS to filter the electrical supply so I am not sure its a case that PJ manufacturers don't think its required.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: |
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I think Scott told me once that it wasn't required. His specialty is power supplies.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I think Scott told me once that it wasn't required. His specialty is power supplies. |
We really should define "required" because you can run a 40k projector without any power conditioning as you can run a 200k server but its better in the case of the server at least that some power conditioning is provided even though its not necessary (that is to say it will power up and run just by plugging it into a power supply). 
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: |
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I think some of you guys do not understand what most UPS systems do.
They are to provide power during a outage or brownout mainly, and not for filtering in general. The DC batteries current is converted to AC and often is not as clean as some of you mentioned. Many UPS's do nothing until a Brownout or outage happens, that is it does not modify the incoming voltage at all or waveform and kicks in the instant it senses a drop or overvoltage. UPS and power conditioning is not really related although some units have both. Their is no reason for conditioning other than spike protection in a properly setup server room with proper PDU's and electrical service.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I agree but you guys are talking about UPS systems that are primarily used in IT infrastructure and commercial use. They in general are not clean or active unless the conditions I spoke of are true in my previous post. Some of the big money ones are but not the <$2000 ones in my experience. They only allow extended run time to allow a permanent generator to kick in or to power down the equipment. The equipment these are designed for(servers, IT infrastructure) are not heavily effected like HT gear.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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AS with power conditioners, there are several levels of UPSs, ranging from almost square wave output (not good for most electronics) to simulated sine wave to true sine wave output. True sine wave output is of course the most expensive.
I guess I'm lucky with 3-4 power outages a year here with no spikes. I only use a UPS on my main work computer, but I've had outages where I'm not here where the large UPS runs out of power. Never had an issue. Ditto with no power surges or lightning strikes.
There are many good posts at the >$20K forum on avs, check in the archives as to what's best for you if you really want to mess with your incoming power.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | They are to provide power during a outage or brownout mainly, and not for filtering in general. The DC batteries current is converted to AC and often is not as clean as some of you mentioned. Many UPS's do nothing until a Brownout or outage happens, that is it does not modify the incoming voltage at all or waveform and kicks in the instant it senses a drop or overvoltage. UPS and power conditioning is not really related although some units have both. Their is no reason for conditioning other than spike protection in a properly setup server room with proper PDU's and electrical service. |
This is only true in the very cheapest UPS's. Every decent UPS system has the output power coming from the "inverter" at all times. In other words the power it supplies is never from the power grid, but from the inverter in the UPS which creates AC from a common DC buss. The DC buss is constantly fed from the batteries and the rectified AC. If the AC drops off for any reason, then all power is suplied from the batteries. There is no "switch" that occurs and the rectifier also recharges the batteries without a "switch". You could watch the output waveform on a scope as you disconnected its power feed, and you wouldn't see a thing.
IMHO, a full on-line UPS such as we are discussing, is the best "filter" available, as it doesn't filter the incoming power, it rectifies it to DC and then recreates AC in its inverter. That is why (just like an isolation transformer), the output of a UPS system is considered a "separately derived source".
The only thing I can think of that can supply power more "separated" from the power grid is a Motor - Generator - Set (MG). This is where an electric motor driven by your utility company drives an electric generator. I haven't seen an MG set in 40 years. There are even older than I am!
Bob
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| virusc wrote: | I think some of you guys do not understand what most UPS systems do.
They are to provide power during a outage or brownout mainly, and not for filtering in general. The DC batteries current is converted to AC and often is not as clean as some of you mentioned. Many UPS's do nothing until a Brownout or outage happens, that is it does not modify the incoming voltage at all or waveform and kicks in the instant it senses a drop or overvoltage. UPS and power conditioning is not really related although some units have both. Their is no reason for conditioning other than spike protection in a properly setup server room with proper PDU's and electrical service. |
Most UPS worth their salt will also protect from over voltage as you day (and under voltage) so not a spike as such but small rises (and falls) in the voltage and current supplied to the equipment. I couldn't possibly agree with a server room not requiring a UPS.
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Zolzar
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Topaz isolation transformer that I am planning on wiring up this weekend. I'm curious as to how I should protect the circuit. I have a 20 amp leg feeding the HT room from the main panel. I do not have a sub panel. Should I add a 20amp disconnect on the output side of the transformer? Basically I'd have the following: 20amp breaker ---->Transformer-----> 20amp fusible disconnect---->HT
Would this be appropriate?
Boilermaker,
I still see MG sets at least once a week servicing elevators. As you said most are at least 40 years old but they are still out there and being rebuilt quite often. The last new MG sets I know of that were installed new were in 1989. Probably the last ever. Most are rapidly disappearing and are being replaced with SCR drives.
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Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 20amp breaker ---->Transformer-----> 20amp fusible disconnect---->HT
Would this be appropriate? |
Assuming you are using #12AWG or larger from your service panel - Yes
Assuming you are using #12AWG or larger from your disconnect - Yes
| Quote: | | I still see MG sets at least once a week servicing elevators. As you said most are at least 40 years old but they are still out there and being rebuilt quite often. The last new MG sets I know of that were installed new were in 1989. Probably the last ever. Most are rapidly disappearing and are being replaced with SCR drives. |
Thanks for jogging my memory. Yes, I'm sure there are still a bunch in that application. When the switch to VFD started in the 70's most motors and gearboxes were destroyed before de-rating was used. Sometimes old technology is better.
Bob
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