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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Hmm where to start....
I would have to say, if it werent for failures of any electronics, a LOT of people would still be watching their 20+ year old TVs that have what they THINK is a good picture quality...
Now I can easily say this as I had an old Sony 27" from 1993 that cost a mega $900!! But boy could it do a lot! Nothing better than analog NTSC, 3 composite/Svideo connections, and :O its cable ready?! HOLY MOLY!
If that TV was still working today, I doubt my dad would have replaced it. He thought it had a good picture and hey, honestly, it did what he wanted it to do...
now since it DID die, he has a nice "new" Sony 34" KD-34XBR970, and he even god forbid admits that he was glad the TV died because he DIDNT KNOW that picture quality had actually improved that much, and needless to say, it made it MUCH more pleasing for him to watch TV.
So because of electronic failure he is now enjoying a better, bigger viewing experience than he ever has before, and he never had the intention of doing so, until electronic failure.
My point is, yes stuff nowdays is made cheaper, yes, perhaps it does die a bit sooner than we would like it to, but in the end, because of electronic failure, people have a BETTER OVERALL USER EXPERIENCE.
I agree with Peri about 2 things,
1) It is because of failures that give people a chance to experience the newer tech, at a lower price, and
2) Dont jusge the quality of something that someone makes if you havent personally experienced, and owned it for yourself, its a bad practice in any field, weather it be cars or electronics, or anything else really. Just because the majority of large corporate manufacturers make cheaper, possibly proned to failure equipment, doesnt mean that all of them do.
Just my 2 cents 
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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See if they still made an XBR 960 I'd take one in a heartbeat
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CRT.
HD done right!
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | See if they still made an XBR 960 I'd take one in a heartbeat |
To be honest, the 970 was bought because it was at the time, the cheapest Sony HDTV they had available, flat panels back 5+ years ago were still outta this world as far as price goes.
I too wish we would have gotten the 960...
I have nothing against old tech being perfected, afterall thats what the CRT is, it has been around for I beleive almost 70 years? It has had a chance to get perfected, it even made it to HDTV!
I think people dont give newer techology such as flat panels a chance as far as the low life expectancy goes, Flat panels have been around what? 20 years? WOW! Less than 1/3rd the time CRTs had to be perfected and here we all are expecting a 20-30 year old technology to do everything a perfected 70 year old technology can do and have it make the popcorn too...
Shees Sony Pioneer etc etc.. WHATS TAKING SO LONG!?
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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I saw one of the first flat panels back in 1997 it was a NEC, cost $80 000 and had the worst picture I had ever seen. Now they are getting better but I'll still take the old tech 
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: |
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No complaints here, 5 CRTs here and 4 are projectors 
by the time Im about 70 flat panel tech should be either gone or as good/better than CRT, or both
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Or maybe some Analog nut will start making really high end videophile CRT sets again.
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Hopefully half the length of the current CRT PJs and less weight (due to a smaller chassis/newer components)!
But then again, everything made these days is total junk that dies 3-5 years from now, so Ill stick with my 13+ year old units, 2 of which have had electronic failure.
Ill give CRT one thing that I REALLY like about them, they are EASY to open up, dissasemble and work on.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy112 wrote: | Hmm where to start....
1) It is because of failures that give people a chance to experience the newer tech, at a lower price, and
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Just 'cause I like flogging dead horses.. 
My counter is that electronics don't need to be cheaper for people to experience the 'newer tech' as you put it. Roll the clock back to the 20s and 30s, and cars and almost everything else were more expensive than now, and people still found ways to buy them. Ditto for electronics in the 60s to 80s. You're right, color TVs started at $550 CDN for a 20" with no remote, and at the mom and pop TV store, they were flying out the door when I worked at that TV store from 1981 to 1986. It was only when RCA slaughtered the price of a 20"{ remote control TV to $299 that the mom and pop store sales volume was affected.
THose RCAs started coming in the day that the 3 year warranty expired, and then somehow it was our fault that we couldn't fix the set for less than it cost to buy a new one (RCA parts pricing was on the moon, as they realized they were losing their shirt due to the 3 year warranty and complete crap product.).
Going back to my 25-50% more expensive example, I'd say the price of flat screens has dropped that much in the last 4 years or so, yet people were still buying them in droves at the higher pricing. Ditto for my Craigslist stuff. I found that people will buy, regardless if the price is 40 or 60% of retail. I don't get the phone ringing off the hook because I dropped the pricing 20% (which is what I did before I left, to see if I could sell 5-10 monitors within a week. I sold 3, the same that I sold the week before).
Ergo, pricing doesn't matter, (within reason) except for those that shop solely on price, and a lot of those people will buy only on price, not on brand name or on features. So... increase product quality and longevity, and bump up customer support and warranty, and save the planet.
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: |
My counter is that electronics don't need to be cheaper for people to experience the 'newer tech' as you put it. Roll the clock back to the 20s and 30s, and cars and almost everything else were more expensive than now, and people still found ways to buy them. Ditto for electronics in the 60s to 80s. You're right, color TVs started at $550 CDN for a 20" with no remote, and at the mom and pop TV store, they were flying out the door when I worked at that TV store from 1981 to 1986. It was only when RCA slaughtered the price of a 20"{ remote control TV to $299 that the mom and pop store sales volume was affected.
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THats one of the problems, this isn't the 20's or 30's this is the way the world works now, do I like it? No! Infact I agree that expenseive electronics should be up there in the quality department, you damn right! If I'm paying $1000 for a Pioneer Stereo, I better get what a real $1000 of quality is worth, some nice piano finish, the ole copper chassis they stopped using, copper screws, better components on the circuitry and so on...
The problem is though is that not everyone can have lets say that new flat panel 3D TV, because not everyone can afford it. I can see someone who sells the stuff like you or I to say everyones buying them, because to the seller of said items it appears that your selling to everyone.
The reality is though, most people dont care about having a high end set like back in the day. They want a flat panel TV that works, takes up less space, and produces a image they can watch.
Why should someone have to pay top dollar to get that? I dont think they should, and if their low end electronics die sooner, well thats the price of not spending the money on something more expensive (when lucky enough to find a company who actually uses quality components). which again is what this whole thread is about..
However, for many people 5 years is long enough to have a TV, or a computer etc.ee before replacing it anyway, it really SHOULD be replaced by then because of tech innovations over the years. What was Top of the line in 2005 can be had for the price of a new lower end item.
I think only one real exception for the electronics market would be audio equipment, granted yes your new $800 receiver may only be worth $300 5-6 years from now, but it still has 7.1, HDMI, etc, etc... It probably wont have what newer receivers have but for most people, as long as it SOUNDS good, they dont care. and thats where the value of audio equipment comes in. You can sell someone a 10 year old pair of speakers for near new price of something equivilant because of the quality of sound. You cant see how crappy the audio looks, so it makes it harder to judge quality audio, thus making pricing more flexible.
The only time I think anything should be way out there in price is if it just got released or was actually made of higher end components, otherwise I dont honestly mind the "disposable" electronics to some extent, they keep my repair biz busy. I just think that a high end item should be worth the high end price.
Anyway I think even I lost myself in my own words so I'm done
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think there are two counters to Peri's argument here. First, Curt I understand where you are coming from. I think we have moved from building stuff that last for product differentiation to what we have today. I think once this new every year thing wears off then better quality might return as a way of product differentiation. Unfortunately, that may bet awhile in coming. Next up is 3D, then 4k and then 8k. I know Wolf pjs mentioned that they overbuild their pjs and have not had one fail since they have been in business.
As for Ar, give me a break. You buy all of your stuff used. How much of this stuff would you have bought new?
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | I think there are two counters to Peri's argument here. First, Curt I understand where you are coming from. I think we have moved from building stuff that last for product differentiation to what we have today. I think once this new every year thing wears off then better quality might return as a way of product differentiation. Unfortunately, that may bet awhile in coming. Next up is 3D, then 4k and then 8k. I know Wolf pjs mentioned that they overbuild their pjs and have not had one fail since they have been in business.
As for Ar, give me a break. You buy all of your stuff used. How much of this stuff would you have bought new? |
I don't buy all my stuff used. Allot of it was new. But then again. It's only new for a day. I'd still love to buy a new CRT TV.
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | I'll still stick with my proposal of 25-50% increase in the average retail price of electronics for twice the lifespan. The world doesn't need a $24.95 DVD player that lasts 6 months. (yes, I've bought a couple of those to see if they lasted) Make the minimum a $49 DVD player that lasts 2 years. |
You would porbably get 20% of buyers to buy in to this if you could convince them that
A) the 50% more expensive set was actually built better and would last longer
and
B) you backed it up with a serious factory warranty that was actually fully backed up by the factory, for lets say 3 to 4 years.
both of these are a tough sell as the "extended waranty scam" pushed by box stores has really soured people to a warranty of any kind. When someone asks me "would you like to buy the extended warranty" I immediately want ot punch them.
| perisoft wrote: | | draganm wrote: | You guys actually build a giant machine like a flight sim and then toss it in a land-fill in 5 years. Un-fricking-believeable.  |
Where did I say that they were getting tossed in a land fill? Maybe you should come here and take a look at the "crap" I make before you shoot your mouth off. |
yes I should but really, you guys sell machines that cost what, 2 or 3 or 4 times as mauch as a new car and don't support it after 5 years? Can you imagine buying a car that the dealer couldn't repair after 5 years. Am I misunderstanding, something? To me, This business model might be good for sales but I don't get it?
I can't think of one example where this doesn't have a negative impact on the world we line in, even software. It pissed me off to no end when my perfectly good printer became unuseable and i'm told "sorry, HP didn't write drivers for your printer and Vista OS". had to buy a new printer, what a waste. guess what my new printer does that the old one didn't do = nothing. 
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dragnam,
That was your fault for not trying Ubuntu. I bet Ubuntu would have had the driver pre-loaded.
AR,
Ok, how many of your tvs or pjs were bought new?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | I'll still stick with my proposal of 25-50% increase in the average retail price of electronics for twice the lifespan. The world doesn't need a $24.95 DVD player that lasts 6 months. (yes, I've bought a couple of those to see if they lasted) Make the minimum a $49 DVD player that lasts 2 years. |
You would porbably get 20% of buyers to buy in to this if you could convince them that
A) the 50% more expensive set was actually built better and would last longer
and
B) you backed it up with a serious factory warranty that was actually fully backed up by the factory, for lets say 3 to 4 years.
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Good points, and yes, if the product was overbuilt and manufacturers made a reasonable profit, then the warranty should follow suit.
Remember, all name brand color TVs had a full 3 year warranty back in the 80s. I bailed out of the TV shop in about 86, and I remember a Zenith dealer meeting where we were told that all consumer manufacturers were losing their shirt due to this 3 year warranty. (this is after RCA slashed the pricing of sets to $299 from $549). All manufacturers were paying out massive warranty claims due to crap parts and construction, but no one dared to lower the warranty from 3 years to 1 year.
Someone finally did (I don't know who), and everyone followed suit.
(another) point is, we've been building electronics for near 100 years now in some way shape or form. Along with features, can't we build reliability?
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beun
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Reliability starts with design and it actually relatively simple but time consuming although it may cost a bit more. As has been mentioned before it is all about derating, if it is stressed too much and/or gets too hot it won't live long. Some kind of components (although needed) are asking for trouble. Electrolytic caps dry out and tantalum ones cannot handle spikes for example. Connectors will corrode (especially the cheap ones) and plastic when it gets warm starts to disintegrate.
My personal believe and fear is that the current crop of engineers don't know what they are doing. I am an old school one and have interviewed new engineers for over a decade now and to put it bluntly most of them don't know sh*t. Knowledge about bipolar technology isn't taught anymore and a question about tubes gets you a blank stare. Reliability engineering isn't even in the curriculum anymore.
I don't have high hopes for the future.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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beun,
Good info. That is kind of sad indictment of your interviewees education.
Oh, isn't it time you designed a new box around the Geo Tahoe chip?
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| beun wrote: | Reliability starts with design and it actually relatively simple but time consuming although it may cost a bit more. As has been mentioned before it is all about derating, if it is stressed too much and/or gets too hot it won't live long. Some kind of components (although needed) are asking for trouble. Electrolytic caps dry out and tantalum ones cannot handle spikes for example. Connectors will corrode (especially the cheap ones) and plastic when it gets warm starts to disintegrate.
My personal believe and fear is that the current crop of engineers don't know what they are doing. I am an old school one and have interviewed new engineers for over a decade now and to put it bluntly most of them don't know sh*t. Knowledge about bipolar technology isn't taught anymore and a question about tubes gets you a blank stare. Reliability engineering isn't even in the curriculum anymore.
I don't have high hopes for the future. |
Beun, your EXACTLY right. I too think its the engineers that are some of the reason to blame for low quality crap made these days. I think the engineers who have the experience from back in the 60's and 70's should be the ones designing this stuff, all too often the younger engineering crowd will design something thats this much better but forget everything else that led up to that point.
I think back in the 70's people rarely complained about their electronics, or maybe its the folks who have the electronics from the 70s nowdays who dont complain at all about their older electronics. They were just designed and engineered better than things are today. Regardless of cost, I think it has to do with the lack of intelligence some of these engineers really have.
What do I know though, Im not from the 70's and I'm not an engineer. But I know that if I was, I wouldn't be designing monitors that can crack just from having a tennis ball thrown at them, and computers that have cases so thin they can barely hold their own weight (Yes I have actually had a few of these, they do exist, and are a complete waste of time, money, and R & D).
I just dont think things should have to be SUPER expensive to get something quality.
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beun
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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To make it even worse I have the following two recent anecdotes from a colleague:
1) Actual response from a candidate with a MSEE from a very expensive college): "Yes I have heard about inductors, but I am not sure what they do"
2) Another candidate from another quite reputable college when asked how to make an inductor when his life depended on it: "......(and after a long silence), I have no idea".
So you want a scaler heh?
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ESL-0.5 Full Range Electrostatic Loudspeakers | RTC2200 Component to VGA Converter with Gamma Boost
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, it's a trickle down effect. Try and find a tech nowadays that knows how to solder. I cringed when my carpool high school buddy graduated from 2 year tech college with me, and didn't know the difference between an NPN and PNP transistor.
Don't get me started about car mechanics... there's a local commercial running where the 'mechanic' says that he spends more time in front of a computer than under the hood. Yep, and I have a problem with that!
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