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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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All this being said, I don't know if it is worth swapping the projectors. If you already have the Marquee up and are happy with it, I don't know if it the effort is worth it. The G90 is better, but changing projectors is hard. Personally, I would change to the G90, but I do this for a living 
craigr
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | | dvh99 wrote: | stick with your marquee do some mods and it will be just as good as the g90 if not better.
i have never seen a g90 in action but i cannot imagine the g90 to be superior. |
You really do need to see a G90, they ARE superior, in every way. For the cost of making a Marquee close to as good(but not better...) than a G90, you could buy several G90's, or a couple 919's... |
This is far from true.
Though the G90 is superior in a lot of ways over a Marquee, it or a Barco 909 has an inferior video chain technically to a Marquee. And when I refer to an Marquee here, I'm talking about a STOCK marquee that has not been modified at all.
Now, let me say this. I have all three (Marquee 9500LC, Sony G90, Barco 909) presently in my possession. I can walk to any of them and turn them on in less than two minutes.
I have tested and evaluated the video chains of the them all. My method of testing is both noise and bandwidth. I use every test method I know of, and the results were consistent. In the years of doing this, I've even made a visit to VDC to look at how they test for this, to include also their test methods. I've also sent two different video boards to Scott for evaluation to confirm my findings. In both cases Scott was on par with my findings. The boards sent were the Vim from a Marquee 03 VIM and neck board from a Barco 909. Both were bandwidth evaluated.
Now since many has posted on their views or perspectives on these two projectors, let me chime in with a bit different view and perspective from what has already been posted so far. And I'm sure since Spanky Ham has both 909's and a G90, if allowed, he could take them both to VDC to also confirm what I've already been posting on this.
Now let's first start with the 909 or Cine 9. It uses the very same two video boards that the very early Barco 'S' series came out with back in the nineties. The actual difference is so minute that's it's not worth posting, nor is it video path related.
That video chain is in no way a better video chain than what is found in a stock Marquee 2035-02 or 03 VIM.
The neck boards that's used in the Barco 909 in no way outperforms the neck boards used in a Marquee. My exact testing results were also confirmed when I sent it to Scott to evaluate.
I also work on the Barco 909's and have been doing so for the past 8 years, to include servicing them and maintaining them in various military and other commercial applications. So I not only got to play with or see one in action, I've been servicing them for 8 years to include doing all necessary testing to support what I've been saying about them.
The pletora of advanced features and incredible focus and image that it's capable of displaying, is only a part of the overall image requirement that's the most important ruler for image performance, which is bandwidth and noise floor. Two areas where it needs improvement.
Hey, I'm also the guy who gets the PM's and emails on this..
-------
The great G90.... I have one of them here to in perfect working condition with Perfect tubes.
Great projector. very well designed with features, much like the 909 platform, BUT, it also lacks in the noise and bandwidth department. And in no way lives up to its rated bandwidth.
The neck boards on the G90 are second best to the neck boards on the Marquee, which uses a cleverly designed discrete mirror cascode differential amplifying system. And in that design, they chose Motorola RF (beyond video) Power transistors for both drivers and quad outputs. This circuit design also allows them to be modified beyond it's rated bandwidth. While the G90 used the integrated modules for finals, which is still fully capable beyond the 909.
The video board (BA) on the G90, is really hard to believe to even technically equate to its ratings, and that's even before doing any testing. The design just does not logically align up with any circuit or stage that's bandwidth and performance critical...but somehow it shows a good image to many. Simply put, it is not a full 1080P projector. Something that John HWman pointed out years ago, and most likely why him and others do not run it at full 1080P resolution.
The gamma circuitry is a big plus on the G90, as well, it's focusing ability. It has a tremendous focusing section.
And that does not include the 10F lenses, that some think are better and different from the Gt17's. I'll spill the beans here, they are the exact same lenses. 10F is what the manufacturer used for their generic number, but Electrohome used the GT-17 number.
---
Now, concerning the Marquee. It is a very basic designed CRT projector, that did not have an entire engineer team involved in it's design. I was told it was just a handful or less involved in the design of it.
Because it was so basically designed, a whole lot did not go into the focusing, control and functionality of it. But the video chain did get much attention. And it's obvious with the discrete circuit designs. And the fact that they started the very first VIM using the highest bandwidth devices possible at the time, and to this day, still it had the highest most critical parts used in the very first design compared to what the other manufacturers later used in their design.
The upgrade or later 2035-03P VIM made for a very high bandwidth (in comparison to everything else out there at the time and to this day) video chain, which coupled the BEST video section that combined the best and highest bandwidth neck boards with the absolute BEST video front section.
So a Marquee would have the best video chain out there, period.
And that's without any mods........
Now, why does the Marquee not always look as good as the others.... I'm glad that question was asked...
Overall video performance exist on a foundation of a good focusing. And because the original focusing system was not the best, to include, because it also did not have the complete menu control capability to fully adjust the focus, the overall bandwidth performance cannot be easily achieved because of the design limitation and you'll almost need an expert or someone very familiar with the setup of the magnetics to get it to sing properly.
You don't need mods or modifications to get a marquee to be a good performer. But you will need someone to be able to properly dial things in and a good source.
I think for many, there's a few good options out there beyond spending from what I offer, or will be offering with my mods later. And that is what dragenm and some of the others are doing with trying to lower to noise floor in the Marquee. It's different from what I'm doing, but in a lot of cases, it's all that's really needed.
I offer an entirely different performance package, that's not for everyone who owns a Marquee, and when they do become available, I'm going to first make sure they would be a good compliment to the system.
So the bottom line is, choose based on your preference, because neither of the mentioned projectors are actually better than the others. They all have equal to better features, but not better overall.
Last edited by mp20748 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:53 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Funny you mention the that the Video amps onthe marquee are the best, Greg Eisemann said he is working on a hybrid neck board for the 1209 useing the VNB from an 8500. Well he hinted at it while talking about how to improve the video amp of the barco 1209 ,
| GregEisemann wrote: | | What would be better is to design a discrete output stage to replace the 1209s output. ( a trick is to modify a old electrohome 8500 output) they are cheap and aval. |
So is the 909 output stage the same as the 1209 Mike?
Athanasios
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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all i can say is that when i turn on the pj i am amazed every single time, changing out the clc449 with the el5166 is very simple, it takes 30 minutes to get the vnbs and vim out the pj and solder them on and it really improved my image.
i cannot wait to get my parts to finish the addon vim and see what it does but since the picture is so amazing now i do not expect miracles.
the g90 has better focussing but a worse videochain, that is why i said that with some mods to improve the already good videochain and changing out focus coils which i have not done yet will most probably outperform the g90 on almost everything.
i would like to see the g90 in action but i do not know anyone close by who has 1.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Funny you mention the that the Video amps onthe marquee are the best, Greg Eisemann said he is working on a hybrid neck board for the 1209 useing the VNB from an 8500. Well he hinted at it while talking about how to improve the video amp of the barco 1209 ,
| GregEisemann wrote: | | What would be better is to design a discrete output stage to replace the 1209s output. ( a trick is to modify a old electrohome 8500 output) they are cheap and aval. |
So is the 909 output stage the same as the 1209 Mike?
Athanasios |
It's an entirely different designed board. I think that was the case because Sanyo no longer manufactured the video output modules. And their goal was to get to that 180mhz figure.
The 1209 I'm not sure of what neck board it uses, but I do know that it does not use the same ones in the 909.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | all i can say is that when i turn on the pj i am amazed every single time, changing out the clc449 with the el5166 is very simple, it takes 30 minutes to get the vnbs and vim out the pj and solder them on and it really improved my image.
i cannot wait to get my parts to finish the addon vim and see what it does but since the picture is so amazing now i do not expect miracles.
the g90 has better focussing but a worse videochain, that is why i said that with some mods to improve the already good videochain and changing out focus coils which i have not done yet will most probably outperform the g90 on almost everything.
i would like to see the g90 in action but i do not know anyone close by who has 1. |
Some years back, the performance was all about sharpness. That was back in the day before 1920x1080 60hz, which required a lot more bandwidth than what the CRT projectors were being used at, so if there was an InfoComm Shoot-out somewhere where they demoed these projectors, they were never done at that rate. the rate was more around 1280x1024 or maybe 1600x1200.
1920x1080P 60hz created an entirely different challenge for these projectors, one that was not on the radar from Marquee and Sony.
But some time later, Barco went to the board to design a Super CRT projector, that would also have the higher bandwidth capabilities of the demanding simulation and presentation systems. That was the 909, which also failed in that regard.
Full 1080P requires not only good bandwidth, you'll need a certain noise floor to properly maintain it with good blacks, which can get lost or elevated if the video chain is not fast or clean enough.
I'm able to 100% resolve full 1080P @ 72hz. So I'm closer to the Barco 909's proposed or claimed bandwidth..
However, the goal is beyond bandwidth only, you'll also need a clean video chain, good focusing system, and proper control of the pedestals along the entire video chain. The longer the video chain, the more complex it becomes.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, if i could have finished the gamma circuit redesign on the G90, I would probably want one myself, because with the other changes, it would have been a much better video section. Couple that with it's focusing, it would have been a scary projector to own.
Probably would not be a need for 3D.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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And it begins
| mp20748 wrote: |
The video board (BA) on the G90, is really hard to believe to even technically equate to its ratings, and that's even before doing any testing. The design just does not logically align up with any circuit or stage that's bandwidth and performance critical...but somehow it shows a good image to many. Simply put, it is not a full 1080P projector. Something that John HWman pointed out years ago, and most likely why him and others do not run it at full 1080P resolution. |
Mike, you always say that, but every G90 I have ever worked on has always nearly fully resolved 1080p 60Hz. It is 95% there or better with little attenuation in the SMTPE 1:1. The G90 even does a very respectable job with 1080p 72Hz. And this is with a stock projector.
On the other hand, I have never seen a stock Marquee come anywhere close to fully resolving 1080p 60Hz. Most heavily modified Marquee projectors don't come close either. SMTPE 1:1 is always muddy and never shows up. The only Marquee projectors I have ever seen do 1080p correctly all the way out is the one at your house (that is the best projector I have ever seen), and my client's MP9 in which I installed your latest VIM and VNB.
Stock Marquee projectors that are out there don't match up to the BW of any G90 laying around anywhere. A good condition Marquee has less noise and does not streak compared to a G90 that has some noise and streaks a little on certain video images. Also, the G90 can go much brighter and maintain focus while the Marquee blooms when you try and turn em up.
If your G90 isn't showing full 1080p 60Hz you either don't know how to focus it or there is a problem with your source.
G90 stock running 1080p 60Hz.
craigr
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
Mike, you always say that, but every G90 I have ever worked on has always nearly fully resolved 1080p 60Hz. It is 95% there or better with little attenuation in the SMTPE 1:1. The G90 even does a very respectable job with 1080p 72Hz. And this is with a stock projector. |
The SMPTE pattern that you post shows attenuation on the top left vertical lines. The attenuation is shown by the darkness in the vertical lines. To get a better understanding of how much loss or roll-off is going on, you'd need to scope the video chain also. And that is where you'd get a better understanding on what is going on with that pattern and where the attenuation is taking effect in the video chain.
Using the method that I learned from Scott while at VDC, which is similar to what I've been using with the scope method, but only he pointed out how important it is to use the right probe and that it should not put a load on the circuit. This is easy if measuring before the neck boards, it's very difficult once you get into the neck boards. That test is looking at square waves along the video chain and seeing where the wave distorts or starts to have a longer rise/fall period. Once in the video chain with the scope, the rise and fall period becomes the most important ruler for speed, which is VERY important for 1920 scanned horizontal lines before blanking at the higher bandwidth. Which is a challenge for any video chain.
Check out a pattern from my setup also with all three colors, but at 1920x1080P 72hz. Notice in that pattern how both vert and horiz lines of the two top line groups match. but what's also more important is the last vertical line in the top left lines are not smearing over into the top right horizontal lines. If there's smearing there, it's also an indicator that the video chain is not fast enough. This is supported with the scope.
The third and also very important rule for the SMPTE test is black or darkness also being present in the image or line groups. The darker the blacks or darkness in the image with no smearing and matching brightness in both top left and right lines (vert/horiz) is the real determiner.
I'm really going by both scope and SMPTE test.
This pattern is showing full 1080P 72hz on my 9500LC - check out the tightness of the lines, bnrightness of the lines and that there's no smearing to the right of the last vertical top line.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
| Quote: | | On the other hand, I have never seen a stock Marquee come anywhere close to fully resolving 1080p 60Hz |
One is quite hard to find, but when evaluating for this test. The setup would have to be correct, because if the stig/focus is not dead on, the left and right top pattern would not display what the neck boards are putting out. The marquees stock video chain may not show equal brightness lines which would indicate a roll-off, but it would do well with maintaining the darkness and smearing factors.
| Quote: | | Stock Marquee projectors that are out there don't match up to the BW of any G90 laying around anywhere. A good condition Marquee has less noise and does not streak compared to a G90 that has some noise and streaks a little on certain video images. Also, the G90 can go much brighter and maintain focus while the Marquee blooms when you try and turn em up. |
A stock Marquee may fail the SMPTE comparison test, but in no way would it fail the scope test (video chain) in comparison. Tubes and some aged and noisier components could also hinder the overall display of true bandwidth. And because the Marquees focus system is not as good, it also hinders it from properly showing resolved 1080P. Again, a good focus system is the foundation of good bandwidth performance.
As I've also mentioned earlier, noise is an enemy of higher bandwidth performance. And streaking is a distortion, that's not a part of the original signal. So streaking would be the indicator that the video chain is either not switching properly or is not fast enough.
| Quote: | If your G90 isn't showing full 1080p 60Hz you either don't know how to focus it or there is a problem with your source.
craigr |
G90 is way too easy to setup the focus. It's all done with the remote, but again, when I test these sets, I'm also looking at the video chain itself. Tubes and setup could make things very difficult to make an more accurate assessment of the video chain.
My comments were about and involved the video chain only. And when testing the video chain, nothing out there competes with a stock Marquee.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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here is mine  .
camera does not capture it all.
1920*1080*72hz
Last edited by dvh99 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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btw i think my middle square is the top square at your pics
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
Check out a pattern from my setup also with all three colors, but at 1920x1080P 72hz....
This pattern is showing full 1080P 72hz on my 9500LC - check out the tightness of the lines, bnrightness of the lines and that there's no smearing to the right of the last vertical top line.[/b] |
That's my point Mike, your projector isn't any old Marquee that anyone else is going to get to use. You are Mike Parker and you have created a kick ass projector out of a Marquee. Most anyone else will never see on their screen what you are projecting
| mp20748 wrote: | A stock Marquee may fail the SMPTE comparison test, but in no way would it fail the scope test (video chain) in comparison. Tubes and some aged and noisier components could also hinder the overall display of true bandwidth. And because the Marquees focus system is not as good, it also hinders it from properly showing resolved 1080P. Again, a good focus system is the foundation of good bandwidth performance...
G90 is way too easy to setup the focus. It's all done with the remote, but again, when I test these sets, I'm also looking at the video chain itself. Tubes and setup could make things very difficult to make an more accurate assessment of the video chain.
My comments were about and involved the video chain only. And when testing the video chain, nothing out there competes with a stock Marquee. |
Yup, the G90 is super easy to focus so you can actually get it right. It also has 2-pole for each scan rate, and 10 position 4-pole and 6-pole magnetics. And yes, you do it all with the remote as you stand in front of the screen where you can see what you are doing instead of stand 10+ feet back at the projector with your hands in it afraid you are about to get electrocuted the entire time.
I love the science behind the video chain, you know that, but what I care about at the end of the day is what I see on the screen. On a G90 I see a nice sharp image and on a Marquee not so much  And to top it off, the G90 can run twice as bright as a 9500 Ultra.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | here is mine .
camera does not capture it all.
|
Exactly, no 1:1 there... completely attenuated at 1:1.
EDIT: and most importantly, where is green. Green does worse on Marquee usually and is the MOST important color for sharpness.
craigr
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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don`t know if it matters much but this is a 4096*4096 pattern.
edit that is why i said i think my middle square is the same resolution as your top square
Last edited by dvh99 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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?? the green was emitting light when i took that picture.
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tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | don`t know if it matters much but this is a 4096*4096 pattern.
edit that is why i said i think my middle square is the same resolution as your top square |
The upper right hand box shows lines which means the tube/ optics is capable of resolving that small of detail. The upper left hand box shows the video system can't output the signal to drive the tube/optics to what it is capable of with that input. I'm don't understand what input you have. 4096x4096 or is it 1920x1080? There is a huge difference in BW requirements.
Scott
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: |
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it is a 4096*4096 test pattern with a 1920*1080 source at 72hz.
the 4096 pattern can not be fitted in my set resolution.
but 1on1off remains 1 on 1 off, bit silly of me to think that makes a difference.
in real life the lines are more defined but my camera does not show that.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: |
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1 more thing the pj is connected via a pc vga-bnc (5meter cable) and this is not the best connection because a lot of noise is coming from the videocard.
when using dvi-->hdmi out to the pj it is definitely sharper but then dvi restricts it to 60hz.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | it is a 4096*4096 test pattern with a 1920*1080 source at 72hz.
the 4096 pattern can not be fitted in my set resolution.
but 1on1off remains 1 on 1 off, bit silly of me to think that makes a difference.
in real life the lines are more defined but my camera does not show that. |
Ah, if you want to examine the bandwidth of a projector with a 1:1 test pattern you must always do it without scaling the pattern. So if you want to test 4096x4096 you must output 4096x4096 directly to the projector. If you want to test 1080p 72Hz you must set your computer to output 1080x1920 and show the same patter without scaling.
When you scale anything you are obviously adding or subtracting lines from the original image that are not in the source image (pattern). This will show up every time in a 1:1 pattern because when you add and subtract lines to a 1:1 pattern it isn't 1:1 anymore some lines might be 2:1:2, or 3:4, or it could go 1:4:3:2:4... you never really know. It depends on the scaler. So when testing video bandwidth and resolution on a CRT the test pattern and source must be set to the same resolution and output NATIVE.
The 1:1 pattern is invaluable to detect processing because of this attribute as well. It is a good pattern to use on digital displays and sources like DVD and bluray players. Because if the display or source scales and does not display native, the 1:1 pattern will be thrashed.
SMTPE 1:1 is a very powerful test pattern with many applications.
craigr
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
I love the science behind the video chain, you know that, but what I care about at the end of the day is what I see on the screen. On a G90 I see a nice sharp image and on a Marquee not so much And to top it off, the G90 can run twice as bright as a 9500 Ultra.
craigr |
I agree, and that's why I said it should be a preference thing, and not based on which is the best.
And yes, a G90 can get bright....and for most folk, that's the main thing that gets their attention. Add a little sharpness to that, and some claim image superiority.
I'll be sending you the modified BA board next week. Even with that same gamma circuit, it should make a considerable difference over the stock board. We'll see. I only wish I could have redone that gamma circuit all together.
Now, only if I could figure out what all I've done to my 9500 that makes it get so bright. I had planned to make that happen, but has yet to do so.
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