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wildchild22
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I am using a nec xg and I have one little problem. I am running 1280X720p @ 119.88 hz.
I have a blue band that is approx 1 foot down from the top and goes completely across the screen.
I see zero gosting. But a blue band.
without the glasses I cannot see it. It is the same for ps3 and bluray 3d.
Any idea how to solve this?
If I mute the green and red it I can see it with just the blue tube on. Anyway almost there. If it comes down to I will set up two input memories 1 for ps3 with the band for ps3 and 2:35:1 blurays ( not blue band) and another image slightly cropped maybe 6 inches off the top if I tweak the v shift and blank it to fill the screen for the 16:9 3d blurays. I also have a samsung pn50c490 cheapo plasma 3d and I feel 3d looks better on the plasma.if I had to pick I would still have to pick the nec xg just because the size makes the biggest difference. I have no problems with brightness. I have not even adjusted my contrast or brightness up. I am using the gen2 emitter, ultaheaven3d glasses for samsung, nvidia gt340 card. Almost perfect. I am betting I can perfect it.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild22 wrote: | I am using a nec xg and I have one little problem. I am running 1280X720p @ 119.88 hz.
I have a blue band that is approx 1 foot down from the top and goes completely across the screen.
I see zero gosting. But a blue band.
without the glasses I cannot see it. It is the same for ps3 and bluray 3d.
Any idea how to solve this?
|
This is because the timing delay for the glasses sync pulse is happening too late. You are actually seeing where the glasses are shutting (changing sides). What you need to do is adjust the glasses timing to move the blue line off the top of the screen. In the Radiance menu you can do this easily now. Just go to 3D glasses and adjust the timing until the line is off the TOP of the screen.
Unfortunately what you might discover is that when you do this you might get ghosting at the bottom of the screen now. This is because you are moving the shutter timing earlier with respect to the image. By the time the bottom of the image is scanned the phosphors at the bottom will no be further behind the sync pulse...
craigr
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Last edited by CIR Engineering on Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild22 wrote: |
If I mute the green and red it I can see it with just the blue tube on. Anyway almost there. If it comes down to I will set up two input memories 1 for ps3 with the band for ps3 and 2:35:1 blurays ( not blue band) and another image slightly cropped maybe 6 inches off the top if I tweak the v shift and blank it to fill the screen for the 16:9 3d blurays. I also have a samsung pn50c490 cheapo plasma 3d and I feel 3d looks better on the plasma.if I had to pick I would still have to pick the nec xg just because the size makes the biggest difference. I have no problems with brightness. I have not even adjusted my contrast or brightness up. I am using the gen2 emitter, ultaheaven3d glasses for samsung, nvidia gt340 card. Almost perfect. I am betting I can perfect it. |
If you don't have a Radiance you might be able to adjsut this transition placement by altering the vertical porch timings... Try different porch timings and see if you can get the transition to move.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerbrand wrote: |
The Vfront=100 seems to make sense, numerically. Since shutter glasses are essentially LCD panels, I would expect them to have switching times of the order of a few milliseconds. With a Vfreq of 48 Hz, each frame lasts around 20 ms, so 100 lines would correspond to about 100/1080*20 ms = 2 ms (assuming you are doing 1080p).
I also cannot see how an increased H-porch would help, though.
BR
Gerbrand |
I see your logic, but no
I am running 96Hz 810 active vertical... here are my timings for 96Hz.
720p 96Hz
Vtotal 1130
Vactive 810
Vfront 100
Vsync 5
This is also true frame sequential so each frame is 24Hz L>R>L>R>L>R.... The actual time of the porch does not really matter with the Radiance with respect to the glasses timing. This is because the Radiance can delay or add time to the glasses sync timing. You can place the glasses sync anywhere within the total pixel count. The reason I am using 100 Vfront is because this allows the G90 to center the image with very little shift or centering correction 
I am using 320 extra pixels because the more extra pixels that are used the less ghosting there is at the bottom of the screen. I would use more total pixels, but this is the limit of the G90 because with this many vertical pixels the vertical stretch is maxed out (without moving the projector back from the screen more).
When setting this up, it is important to use the glasses timing adjustment in the Radiance and to move the timing to right above the top of the image on screen. This is easy to do because you can see the blue transition line move up or down the screen as you add and subtract delay. Just adjust timing to push the transition line off the top of the screen.
The Radiance now supports (firmware is not released yet) a new feature so that the timing delay is in the "Styles" menu. This way different memories (A, B, C, D) can use different glasses timing. I have a different delay for 1.78 than I do for 2.35. For 2.35 I move the sync timing down again to just above the start of the actual image. This is why I can get almost zero ghosting with 2.35... because the amount of image after the start of the timing pulse is small enough to support a nearly ghost free image
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The Radiance now supports (firmware is not released yet) a new feature so that the timing delay is in the "Styles" menu. This way different memories (A, B, C, D) can use different glasses timing. I have a different delay for 1.78 than I do for 2.35. For 2.35 I move the sync timing down again to just above the start of the actual image. This is why I can get almost zero ghosting with 2.35... because the amount of image after the start of the timing pulse is small enough to support a nearly ghost free image
|
New firmware released:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates
Update for the above feature as well as more 2D and 3D benefits.
craigr
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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Just for my information: does this firmware work on all Radial models or does it need to be a "3D" version?
BR
Gerbrand
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerbrand wrote: | Just for my information: does this firmware work on all Radial models or does it need to be a "3D" version?
BR
Gerbrand |
You must have a 3D version to use the 3D features. However, any Radiance can run this firmware version and use the 2D features. Also, I can update any Radiance to a 3D version including the XD now. The XD isn't as good for CRT though because it does not support the higher clock rates of the PLUS. The best combo for CRT 3D is the PLUS and 3D package on the same processor.
Regards,
craigr
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jantje112
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: |
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The last 2 pages focus more on the lumagen I noticed.
Reading the thread I understand that what I need for a basic test on my 9500 ultra is a pair of glasses (samsung 2100 a or ab?) and a emmiter build like this http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-3651 ?
Then a player that would convert my 3d in the right format? I live in europe and there is lots of 3d demo on sattelite here. I can record some for people if thats nice?
Any advise before dropping my paypal money to ebay
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jantje112 wrote: | The last 2 pages focus more on the lumagen I noticed.
Reading the thread I understand that what I need for a basic test on my 9500 ultra is a pair of glasses (samsung 2100 a or ab?) and a emmiter build like this http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-3651 ?
Then a player that would convert my 3d in the right format? I live in europe and there is lots of 3d demo on sattelite here. I can record some for people if thats nice?
Any advise before dropping my paypal money to ebay |
This thread is mostly about the Lumagen and 3D yes. There is however lots of info for making 3D with a HTPC.
The sync extractor you have there is interesting, but honestly I can't believe that guy got that to work. The destruction to the digital video signal integrity will be very high, and I am amazed that he ever got a picture. I don't think his solution will be very repeatable for others and I think he got lucky. He only did things this way because he has a digital projector with no analog solution.
You should use a simple sync circuit that works in the analog domain and gets the sync information from the vertical sync pulse. There are schematics for these somewhere in this thread. I also have one built that I could send you so PM me if you are interested.
Don't use the Samsung glasses without either a Lumagen or a way to adjust the timing delay. The Samsung glasses when used with a universal emitter will have a band across the top of the screen due to timing problems that must be adjusted. Use almost any glasses with a home brew 3D solution, except NOT Samsung or Mitsubishi (same thing). However, if you use a Lumagen or one of the future Moome solutions the Samsung glasses are my favorite at the moment.
Kind regards,
craigr
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jantje112
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi CraigR,
Thanks for your info. Sounds like fun to try. I send you a PM on the emitter.
So I just have to find the cheapest active glasses with no Samsung logo on them ?
| CIR Engineering wrote: | | jantje112 wrote: | The last 2 pages focus more on the lumagen I noticed.
Reading the thread I understand that what I need for a basic test on my 9500 ultra is a pair of glasses (samsung 2100 a or ab?) and a emmiter build like this http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-3651 ?
Then a player that would convert my 3d in the right format? I live in europe and there is lots of 3d demo on sattelite here. I can record some for people if thats nice?
Any advise before dropping my paypal money to ebay |
This thread is mostly about the Lumagen and 3D yes. There is however lots of info for making 3D with a HTPC.
The sync extractor you have there is interesting, but honestly I can't believe that guy got that to work. The destruction to the digital video signal integrity will be very high, and I am amazed that he ever got a picture. I don't think his solution will be very repeatable for others and I think he got lucky. He only did things this way because he has a digital projector with no analog solution.
You should use a simple sync circuit that works in the analog domain and gets the sync information from the vertical sync pulse. There are schematics for these somewhere in this thread. I also have one built that I could send you so PM me if you are interested.
Don't use the Samsung glasses without either a Lumagen or a way to adjust the timing delay. The Samsung glasses when used with a universal emitter will have a band across the top of the screen due to timing problems that must be adjusted. Use almost any glasses with a home brew 3D solution, except NOT Samsung or Mitsubishi (same thing). However, if you use a Lumagen or one of the future Moome solutions the Samsung glasses are my favorite at the moment.
Kind regards,
craigr |
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jantje112 wrote: | Hi CraigR,
Thanks for your info. Sounds like fun to try. I send you a PM on the emitter.
So I just have to find the cheapest active glasses with no Samsung logo on them ?
|
Per your PM to me.
Sync Extractor:
http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/
Cheapest universal emitter and one pair cheapest glasses:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3DTV-Kit-DLP-TV-Projector-EMITTER-1-GLASSES-/150547867478?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230d5a2756
eBay item number: 150547867478
Regards,
craigr
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Any one found some cheap wired glasses. And a solid way for it to work with a HTPC. Games included?
No need for copy protected path though as I never care about that anyway.
I'd like to try out 3D but not enough to drop 100$ at it.
I haven't bought a video card yet, but it might tip the balance to nVidia if they work in 3D without the nVidia 3D kit. (don't want glasses that ghost with nVidia doing nothing about it)
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
I am running 96Hz 810 active vertical... here are my timings for 96Hz.
720p 96Hz
Vtotal 1130
Vactive 810
Vfront 100
Vsync 5
craigr |
Craig what are the exact timings for this? I tried it on the Radiance and while it works, it doesn't stay in 3D mode. The emitter shuts off when I apply the resolution. If I go back to 720P 120hz then the emitter turns back on. Is there something I am missing?
Cliff
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: |
Craig what are the exact timings for this? I tried it on the Radiance and while it works, it doesn't stay in 3D mode. The emitter shuts off when I apply the resolution. If I go back to 720P 120hz then the emitter turns back on. Is there something I am missing?
Cliff |
Yes Cliff, you're missing that the resolution requires a clock rate of 175.6MHZ. Like we discussed, the max bandwidth on the XD is 156MHz, and the frequency required for the above exceeds this by nearly 20MHz. Only the PLUS versions of the XS and XE can run the high clocks to 185MHz. So when you try new frequencies you have to be sure to stay below 156MHz.
Get my clock calculator if you don't already have it:
http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/clock_calc.xls
Also, make sure that for 3D you stay at either 96Hz (95.90 exactly) or 120Hz (119.88 exactly). The Radiance only supports frame-sequential 3D conversion correctly at those two refresh rates. And you must have less than 810 Vactive lines and not less that 1280 Hactive lines (must have 1280 or more) in the current firmware. A new firmware is coming soon that will support different V and H active lines...
craigr
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | overclkr wrote: |
Craig what are the exact timings for this? I tried it on the Radiance and while it works, it doesn't stay in 3D mode. The emitter shuts off when I apply the resolution. If I go back to 720P 120hz then the emitter turns back on. Is there something I am missing?
Cliff |
Yes Cliff, you're missing that the resolution requires a clock rate of 175.6MHZ. Like we discussed, the max bandwidth on the XD is 156MHz, and the frequency required for the above exceeds this by nearly 20MHz. Only the PLUS versions of the XS and XE can run the high clocks to 185MHz. So when you try new frequencies you have to be sure to stay below 156MHz.
Get my clock calculator if you don't already have it:
http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/clock_calc.xls
Also, make sure that for 3D you stay at either 96Hz (95.90 exactly) or 120Hz (119.88 exactly). The Radiance only supports frame-sequential 3D conversion correctly at those two refresh rates. And you must have less than 810 Vactive lines and not less that 1280 Hactive lines (must have 1280 or more) in the current firmware. A new firmware is coming soon that will support different V and H active lines...
craigr |
Maybe its best to just wait until this situation gets worked out with moome to continue foward. Its been a very frustrating weekend.......
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | Any one found some cheap wired glasses. And a solid way for it to work with a HTPC. Games included?
No need for copy protected path though as I never care about that anyway.
I'd like to try out 3D but not enough to drop 100$ at it.
I haven't bought a video card yet, but it might tip the balance to nVidia if they work in 3D without the nVidia 3D kit. (don't want glasses that ghost with nVidia doing nothing about it) |
I have a cheap adapter and wired glasses that includes everything you need to start watching 3D from a HTPC. I would sell the kit for $50 plus shipping and PayPal fees. Includes glasses, sync extractor, and driver software. It uses RGBHV and extracts sync from the Vsync pulse.
Shoot me an email if you are interested.
craigr@cir-engineering.com
craigr
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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Phone: 865-405-6892
Last edited by CIR Engineering on Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | overclkr wrote: |
Craig what are the exact timings for this? I tried it on the Radiance and while it works, it doesn't stay in 3D mode. The emitter shuts off when I apply the resolution. If I go back to 720P 120hz then the emitter turns back on. Is there something I am missing?
Cliff |
Yes Cliff, you're missing that the resolution requires a clock rate of 175.6MHZ. Like we discussed, the max bandwidth on the XD is 156MHz, and the frequency required for the above exceeds this by nearly 20MHz. Only the PLUS versions of the XS and XE can run the high clocks to 185MHz. So when you try new frequencies you have to be sure to stay below 156MHz.
Get my clock calculator if you don't already have it:
http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/clock_calc.xls
Also, make sure that for 3D you stay at either 96Hz (95.90 exactly) or 120Hz (119.88 exactly). The Radiance only supports frame-sequential 3D conversion correctly at those two refresh rates. And you must have less than 810 Vactive lines and not less that 1280 Hactive lines (must have 1280 or more) in the current firmware. A new firmware is coming soon that will support different V and H active lines...
craigr |
Maybe its best to just wait until this situation gets worked out with moome to continue foward. Its been a very frustrating weekend....... |
Well, that is not a Moome issue, this is user error I suspect that what you were actually doing is not adjusting the clock but you were adding Vtotal lines. This will result in an output resolution with a refresh rate that is not equal to 96Hz or 120Hz. The Lumagen cannot run frame-sequential if the timings are not 96Hz or 120Hz.
Lumagen (Patrick) is about to get me a new firmware that will support more resolutions, but they still must be 96Hz or 120Hz. 3D requires that there be a certain combination (either judder free or exact 3:2 pulldown) for it to work in frame sequential mode when a frame-packed source is coming in. This limits refresh rates to 48Hz, 96Hz, 120Hz, and 144Hz. As of now 144Hz is not supported (though it might work) and 48Hz flickers like a strobe because it is really just 24Hz per frame.
Also, Patrick plans to add full 1080i 3D frame-sequential to a later firmware release, although this is not a priority at the moment and will probably not happen for some months as other features are at the top of the list right now. 1080i will give both the PLUS and non-PLUS Radiance users a whole new range of output modes that might work better with zero scaling
At the moment, the highest priority firmware update features from Lumagen include Comcast & DTV "side-by-side" and "top-bottom" 3D support. Then after that support to convert these into 3D frame-sequential for CRT playback. Can anyone say 3D football next year!!!
craigr
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | overclkr wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | overclkr wrote: |
Craig what are the exact timings for this? I tried it on the Radiance and while it works, it doesn't stay in 3D mode. The emitter shuts off when I apply the resolution. If I go back to 720P 120hz then the emitter turns back on. Is there something I am missing?
Cliff |
Yes Cliff, you're missing that the resolution requires a clock rate of 175.6MHZ. Like we discussed, the max bandwidth on the XD is 156MHz, and the frequency required for the above exceeds this by nearly 20MHz. Only the PLUS versions of the XS and XE can run the high clocks to 185MHz. So when you try new frequencies you have to be sure to stay below 156MHz.
Get my clock calculator if you don't already have it:
http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/clock_calc.xls
Also, make sure that for 3D you stay at either 96Hz (95.90 exactly) or 120Hz (119.88 exactly). The Radiance only supports frame-sequential 3D conversion correctly at those two refresh rates. And you must have less than 810 Vactive lines and not less that 1280 Hactive lines (must have 1280 or more) in the current firmware. A new firmware is coming soon that will support different V and H active lines...
craigr |
Maybe its best to just wait until this situation gets worked out with moome to continue foward. Its been a very frustrating weekend....... |
Well, that is not a Moome issue, this is user error I suspect that what you were actually doing is not adjusting the clock but you were adding Vtotal lines. This will result in an output resolution with a refresh rate that is not equal to 96Hz or 120Hz. The Lumagen cannot run frame-sequential if the timings are not 96Hz or 120Hz.
Lumagen (Patrick) is about to get me a new firmware that will support more resolutions, but they still must be 96Hz or 120Hz. 3D requires that there be a certain combination (either judder free or exact 3:2 pulldown) for it to work in frame sequential mode when a frame-packed source is coming in. This limits refresh rates to 48Hz, 96Hz, 120Hz, and 144Hz. As of now 144Hz is not supported (though it might work) and 48Hz flickers like a strobe because it is really just 24Hz per frame.
Also, Patrick plans to add full 1080i 3D frame-sequential to a later firmware release, although this is not a priority at the moment and will probably not happen for some months as other features are at the top of the list right now. 1080i will give both the PLUS and non-PLUS Radiance users a whole new range of output modes that might work better with zero scaling
At the moment, the highest priority firmware update features from Lumagen include Comcast & DTV "side-by-side" and "top-bottom" 3D support. Then after that support to convert these into 3D frame-sequential for CRT playback. Can anyone say 3D football next year!!!
craigr |
Ahhhh, thank you Craig. That tool will be a big help for me. I was inputting the clock rate in the wrong spot on the radiance so yes, it was user error.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: |
Ahhhh, thank you Craig. That tool will be a big help for me. I was inputting the clock rate in the wrong spot on the radiance so yes, it was user error. |
Yeah, it's kind of confusing  But what isn't?
I'll be curious to see what you think of the 3D here on Thursday.
craigr
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | overclkr wrote: |
Ahhhh, thank you Craig. That tool will be a big help for me. I was inputting the clock rate in the wrong spot on the radiance so yes, it was user error. |
Yeah, it's kind of confusing But what isn't?
I'll be curious to see what you think of the 3D here on Thursday.
craigr |
I have it working now. I can see where you are talking about of the needs in improvement. The cool thing though is it works. The kids and the wife dig it. It sure has been a long ass weekend though. Several resolutions setup and even lost a couple. The lost a couple part hurt the most but I made it through it.
I picked up a couple of LG Glasses from Best Buy to try out but they will not keep sync. I tried the "black tape" trick and it didn't work so back they go. I would have gotten the Samsung glasses but they were out of stock.
I'm glad it works but those glasses I picked up to try out with have got to go. Man those things are uncomfortable on my big ass head. Plus I cannot sit in the front row because the LCD panels on them are too small to cover the whole screen area.
The LG Glasses were great in that regard if they would just keep sync and not drop off. Plus, they put out more light than the cheap glasses.
Cliff
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